The healthy submissive is....

lk70

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If this has been covered before, please forgive me. If someone gives me the link to an old thread, I'll busy myself with it instead.

So I found this in someone's profile on collarme. It's in his journal and isn't attributed to anyone so I don't know if he wrote it or if he took it from somewhere else. Anyway, I liked it. And I recognize a lot of myself in there, which is interesting since I'm still trying to figure out if I'm a sub or not. I'd like to know what others think of it.

I. The healthy submissive is capable of, and thrives on, intense, intimate, emotionally open relationships. This is often evident in the number of nourishing, sustaining, and life affirming friendships she makes over the years.
2. The healthy submissive is a giver. She often needs help to ration herself because her impulses nearly always lead her to want to do good for others.
3. The healthy submissive is capable of intense joy, especially in the context of a sustaining relationship.
4. The healthy submissive finds significant relaxation when properly related. She is at ease in that place.
5. The healthy submissive has finely tuned interpersonal sensitivity. She is reactive to subtle shifts in the emotional tone of others.
6. The healthy submissive has a fluidity of self, a flexibility that enables her to adapt to changing circumstances.
7. The healthy submissive is playful.
8. The healthy submissive has no more than the usual cultural conflicts about her body, and its goodness and beauty.
9. The healthy submissive takes pride in her accomplishments.
10. The healthy submissive accepts herself as she is, knowing that while her culture values independence and self sufficiency, she has strong dependency needs and that there is no inherent "wrongness" about those needs.
11. The healthy submissive seeks nourishing relationships.
12. The healthy submissive, in accepting herself "as is" is tolerant of others. But neither will she allow anyone to tell her what her truth should be.
13. The healthy submissive has a reasonable self concept, aware of her difficulties as well as her strengths.
14. The healthy submissive hunger is to be the object of an intense and penetrating understanding. When her nature is understood and she is held in a loving and firm frame, her devotion is almost limitless. The healthy submissive has an enormous capacity for devotion, from which springs her service.
 
Some of this is good, and some of it I take exception to. I'm not so sure how I feel about numbers 10 and 14, 10 especially. I don't think I have strong dependency needs, but then I'm a sub-leaning switch. I have huge independency needs, actually. I do agree with some of it, though I think it sorta sounds like it was written by one of those "submission is a gift" kinda people.
 
I think to try to define an entire class of people by a "checklist" like this is a doomed effort. One thing most of us who have been around the block a few times, here and/or in "real" life, know that no two people will have exactly the same needs, wants and desires in their submission, or dominance, or what-have-you. As each person's genetically- and environmentally- established sexual/emotional/psychological preferences are affected by his/her experiences in life, no two persons, after any significant term of life, will precisely fit any such artifical mode of definition or description.

An amusing (to me, at least) side note is that with the exception or slight modification of numbers 10 and 14, you could replace the word "submissive" with the word "person" and it would sound like a junior high school level psychology checklist to see if one is "normal."

A second amusing side note is that the "author" assumes that all submissives are female... :rolleyes:
 
this is taken from an article I've seen on Polly Peachum's site, submissivewomenspeak.net

check out "The Healthy Female Submissive" by Yaldah Tovah
 
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The key for me is that it is written for the female submissive. And some of it is rather old fashioned (and I am being nice here).

Healthy for whom?
 
Like Eb said, it is directed at females only which is a problem for me in these times, but apart from that it comes across as the ideal derived from fantasy and porn rather than addressing a real human being. For instance, things such as being 'playful' or 'capable of intense joy' are personality/character traits, and actually to me have little to do with indicating how submissive or possibly good at submission a person might be...they might actually turn out to be too much work and demanding. For everyone there is someone, being submissive does not mean that each and every one will be carbon copies of each other with a set list of traits, personality, experiences, and thoughts.

Catalina :catroar:
 
lk70, I can find things in this article that fit me of course. I'm sure every submissive can find something about it that would fit them, but not every part of it will fit every submissive. Why? Because not every submissive comes into this lifestyle with the exact same set of circumstances in their past.

One thing you should think about as you research your journey is what you want to get out of this lifestyle, NOT what others get out of it. You are the one that has to live with the choices you make for yourself.

There isn't a right or wrong way to go about being a "healthy submissive", in my opinion. As long as you feel you are one, then who has the right to tell you that you aren't? No one! Only you know what you feel inside, how you feel about yourself.

All that being said, lists like this aren't all bad, don't get me wrong. They give you a starting place to figure out what's right for you. Take what fits and leave the rest, but most of all... enjoy your journey. :rose:
 
dixicritter said:
lk70, I can find things in this article that fit me of course. I'm sure every submissive can find something about it that would fit them, but not every part of it will fit every submissive. Why? Because not every submissive comes into this lifestyle with the exact same set of circumstances in their past.

One thing you should think about as you research your journey is what you want to get out of this lifestyle, NOT what others get out of it. You are the one that has to live with the choices you make for yourself.

There isn't a right or wrong way to go about being a "healthy submissive", in my opinion. As long as you feel you are one, then who has the right to tell you that you aren't? No one! Only you know what you feel inside, how you feel about yourself.

All that being said, lists like this aren't all bad, don't get me wrong. They give you a starting place to figure out what's right for you. Take what fits and leave the rest, but most of all... enjoy your journey. :rose:

Thanks Dixi, that's very helpful advice.
 
(The following is not a defense but a report of my experience with references to the essay.)

This was written by an anonymous person, presumably female, who claimed to be in psych, and took the online name of "Tovah." (First name, iirc, was Yalda???) The last few lines of the essay are quite famous and are quoted in many submissives' online sigs. The essay is directed, according to the author, at female sub's, rather than at every submissive, because she lacks experience with others and doesn't wish to speak for them. (Her "counseling" presumably has been of females.) It was written, she claims, with the idea that she is "answering" the assumption made by many women who are new to submissive desires and who wonder if there is something "wrong" with them; The essay is called "The Healthy Submissive" and the list is intended as a list of "normal" or healthy behaviors many submissives draw on for their submission.

The faults of the article are many, and many of those have been detailed in the posts others on this thread have made. If the OP wishes to see the orginal article it is available in full on the website, "Submissive Loving," as well as on numerous others.

It is so far from rigorous as to be laughable, yet it has also been a source of inspiration and comfort, apparently (and in my experience) to some submissives as they begin to explore submission. When they return to the article after some experience (especially in real life) they find it naive and superficial, as it clearly is.

Respectfully, ST
 
Softouch911 said:
It is so far from rigorous as to be laughable, yet it has also been a source of inspiration and comfort, apparently (and in my experience) to some submissives as they begin to explore submission. When they return to the article after some experience (especially in real life) they find it naive and superficial, as it clearly is.

Respectfully, ST

Excellent to know. I was getting a little worried that it was being shot down while I was attracted to parts of it. I'll fully admit to being naive. I ain't stupid though, so I'll be fine and will probably look back in a couple of years and scoff.
 
Healthy Submissive

lk70 said:
If this has been covered before, please forgive me. If someone gives me the link to an old thread, I'll busy myself with it instead.

So I found this in someone's profile on collarme. It's in his journal and isn't attributed to anyone so I don't know if he wrote it or if he took it from somewhere else. Anyway, I liked it. And I recognize a lot of myself in there, which is interesting since I'm still trying to figure out if I'm a sub or not. I'd like to know what others think of it.

I. The healthy submissive is capable of, and thrives on, intense, intimate, emotionally open relationships. This is often evident in the number of nourishing, sustaining, and life affirming friendships she makes over the years.
2. The healthy submissive is a giver. She often needs help to ration herself because her impulses nearly always lead her to want to do good for others.
3. The healthy submissive is capable of intense joy, especially in the context of a sustaining relationship.
4. The healthy submissive finds significant relaxation when properly related. She is at ease in that place.
5. The healthy submissive has finely tuned interpersonal sensitivity. She is reactive to subtle shifts in the emotional tone of others.
6. The healthy submissive has a fluidity of self, a flexibility that enables her to adapt to changing circumstances.
7. The healthy submissive is playful.
8. The healthy submissive has no more than the usual cultural conflicts about her body, and its goodness and beauty.
9. The healthy submissive takes pride in her accomplishments.
10. The healthy submissive accepts herself as she is, knowing that while her culture values independence and self sufficiency, she has strong dependency needs and that there is no inherent "wrongness" about those needs.
11. The healthy submissive seeks nourishing relationships.
12. The healthy submissive, in accepting herself "as is" is tolerant of others. But neither will she allow anyone to tell her what her truth should be.
13. The healthy submissive has a reasonable self concept, aware of her difficulties as well as her strengths.
14. The healthy submissive hunger is to be the object of an intense and penetrating understanding. When her nature is understood and she is held in a loving and firm frame, her devotion is almost limitless. The healthy submissive has an enormous capacity for devotion, from which springs her service.

Although I agree with alot of these, there are some I disagree with but most of it IMO is right on the money.
 
I dunno, I like this article.

Yes, it is very idealized, but so are movies, romance novels, sitcoms on cable and fashion magazines...there's nothing wrong with looking up to an ideal image.

I think it's kinda sweet.
 
satindesire said:
there's nothing wrong with looking up to an ideal image.

i have to disagree. It might not be wrong for you but looking up to an ideal has caused problems for generations. Eating disorders brought on by wanting to be just like the model in Seventeen or Glamour, drug addictions fostered by the "rock star ideal," etc.

While i do believe in striving for perfection, i feel that perfection is self-defined. Just like i will never look like a supermodel, i will never be super-sub either as defined by some list. What matters is that i am happy with myself and that LC is happy with me...that our relationship "works" at any given moment. Doesn't make me a bad sub...makes me "nikki" and not a cookie cutter image of some writer's idealism.
 
Some of it is 'ok'.. I just have a hard time with someone making ANY list in general and expecting it to 'fit' an entire group of people..... I feel the same way about 'one size fits all clothing'. It NEVER fits everyone.

Plus, this list, for whatever reason, reminds me of the 12 step Alcoholics Anonymous [nothing wrong with that program and that's not what I am implying here, by the way... i know it has helped many] stuff.......I can't seem to get the words to stop echoing in my head after reading that list: "Hi, I'm sinn0cent1 and i'm a submissaholic..err missive.. umm.. slave. Umm, yeah.". :rolleyes:
The main problem I have with this .... Alcoholism is a disease. Being the submissive in a relationship is not.

If the list works for some, good for them, no doubt. And thanks, it just aint my thing. :rose:

P.S. Oh, other issue would be that I've only ever been comfortable with, or had any need or desire to be submissive with anyone other than Him... so, I can't say i am submissive by default[except for HIM], per say..... so... I don't fit ANY of the lists, I guess. ;)
 
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sinn0cent1 said:
P.S. Oh, other issue would be that I've only ever been comfortable with, or had any need or desire to be submissive with anyone other than Him... so, I can't say i am submissive by default[except for HIM], per say..... so... I don't fit ANY of the lists, I guess. ;)

Hijack of my own thread. Can I pm you about this?
 
I've never met anyone involved in D/s that didn't have some dependency issues.
 
Marquis said:
I've never met anyone involved in D/s that didn't have some dependency issues.


Give this man a cookie.

I don't think anyone who's perfectly healthy is going to be all that kinked.

Or all that interesting in general. I'd rather be happy than textbook healthy.
 
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