The Great Escape (Saudis smuggled out of US after 9/ll)

[shereads]

The Great Escape
By CRAIG UNGER

(New York Times op-ed piece published June 1, 2004)

Americans who think the 9/11 commission is going to answer all the crucial questions about the terrorist attacks are likely to be sorely disappointed — especially if they're interested in the secret evacuation of Saudis by plane that began just after Sept. 11.

We knew that 15 out of 19 hijackers were Saudis. We knew that Osama bin Laden, a Saudi, was behind 9/11. Yet we did not conduct a police-style investigation of the departing Saudis, of whom two dozen were members. of the bin Laden family. That is not to say that they were complicit in the attacks.

Unfortunately, though, we may never know the real story. The investigative panel has already concluded that there is "no credible evidence that any chartered flights of Saudi Arabian nationals departed the United States before the reopening of national airspace." But the real point is that there were still some restrictions on American airspace when the Saudi flights began.

In addition, new evidence shows that the evacuation involved more than the departure of 142 Saudis on six charter flights that the commission is investigating. According to newly released documents, 160 Saudis left the United States on 55 flights immediately after 9/11 — making a total of about 300 people who left with the apparent approval of the Bush administration, far more than has been reported before. The records were released by the Department of Homeland Security in response to a Freedom of Information Act request filed by Judicial Watch, a conservative, nonpartisan watchdog group in Washington.

The vast majority of the newly disclosed flights were commercial airline flights, not charters, often carrying just two or three Saudi passengers. They originated from more than 20 cities, including Chicago, Dallas, Denver, Detroit and Houston. One Saudi Arabian Airlines flight left Kennedy Airport on Sept. 13 with 46 Saudis. The next day, another Saudi Arabian Airlines flight left with 13 Saudis.

The panel has indicated that it has yet to find any evidence that the F.B.I. checked the manifests of departing flights against its terror watch list. The departures of additional Saudis raise more questions for the panel. Richard Clarke, the former counterterrorism czar, told The Hill newspaper recently that he took full responsibility for approving some flights. But we don't know if other Bush administration officials participated in the decision.

The passengers should have been questioned about any links to Osama bin Laden, or his financing. We have long known that some faction of the Saudi elite has helped funnel money to Islamist terrorists —inadvertently at least. Prince Ahmed bin Salman, who has been accused of being an intermediary between Al Qaeda and the House of Saud, boarded one of the evacuation planes in Kentucky. Was he interrogated by the F.B.I. before he left?

If the commission dares to address these issues, it will undoubtedly be accused of politicizing one of the most important national security investigations in American history — in an election year, no less.

But if it does not, it risks something far worse — the betrayal of the thousands of people who lost their lives that day, not to mention millions of others who want the truth.

 

[dr_mabeuse]

Forget Saudi Arabia. All the good targets are in Iraq! Iraq!

I understand that things are not happy at the House of Saud these days.

Apparently the recent terror attacks in Saudi Arabia are a shot across their bows. Some guy on the radio was talking abut how vulnerable the Saudi oil business is to terrorist attacks. It seems that they have one, massive refinery and they've been scrambling to increase security there, but they're worried about sabotage from the inside. One well-paced bomb could do it.

---dr.M.

 

[Blarneystoned]

Beating dead horses

Unfortunately, though, we may never know the real story. The investigative panel has already concluded that there is "no credible evidence that any chartered flights of Saudi Arabian nationals departed the United States before the reopening of national airspace."

First rule of debate, never give your defeating remarks in your opening statement, it places you on the defensive and makes your logic circumspect.

Blarneystoned

 

[shereads]

Forget Saudi Arabia. All the good targets are in Iraq! Iraq!

I understand that things are not happy at the House of Saud these days.

Apparently the recent terror attacks in Saudi Arabia are a shot across their bows. Some guy on the radio was talking abut how vulnerable the Saudi oil business is to terrorist attacks. It seems that they have one, massive refinery and they've been scrambling to increase security there, but they're worried about sabotage from the inside. One well-paced bomb could do it.

---dr.M.

Hoist on their own petard.

WTF does that mean, anyway? It seems to apply here, but what's a petard, and why would one not wish to be hoist upon one's own?

Edited to add: The actual quote was, "There are no good targets in Afghanistan."

 

[Blarneystoned]

Its very simple...

There are fences and gates at most oil refineries...shoot the gate gard and walk right in. That is all over the middle east. Remember that it is a desert....in the past what kind of looney would drive into the desert to blow up an oil well never seemed like a logical attack. Now it seems like a good idea because they know that oil prices will go up and it will hurt us indirectly.

So you still didnt come up with those facts yet did you

Blarneystoned

 

[shereads]

Published in "The Hill"
May 18, 2004

Who let bin Ladens leave U.S.?
By Alexander Bolton

The Bush administration has refused to answer repeated requests from the Sept. 11 commission about who authorized flights of Saudi Arabian citizens, including members of Osama bin Laden’s family, from the United States immediately after the attacks of 2001.

Former Rep. Lee Hamilton (D-Ind.), vice chairman of the independent, bipartisan commission, disclosed the administration’s refusal to answer questions on the sensitive subject during a recent closed-door meeting with a group of Democratic senators, according to several Democratic sources.

However, former Navy Secretary John Lehman, a Republican appointee who also attended the meeting, said in an e-mail to The Hill that he told the senators the White House has been fully cooperative.

Democrats suspect President Bush, who met privately with the Saudi Arabian ambassador, Prince Bandar bin Sultan bin Abdul Aziz, on the morning of Sept. 13, 2001, may have personally authorized the controversial flights, several of which took place when all other U.S. commercial air travel had been halted.

The White House communications office did not immediately respond to a request for comment.

If Bush or members of his inner circle are shown to have approved the flight of the prominent Saudi Arabian citizens, it could be damaging to Bush, who has staked his re-election campaign in large measure to his carefully built image as the steady leader of the war against terrorism.

Sen. Barbara Boxer (D-Calif.) said she asked Hamilton and Lehman if they were able to find out who in the administration authorized the Saudi Arabian flights.
“Who did this? Why would the Saudis want to get out of the country? They said [those questions have] been part of their inquiry and they haven’t received satisfactory answers yet and they were pushing,” Boxer said.

Another Democrat in the meeting who confirmed Boxer’s account reported that Hamilton said, “We don’t know who authorized it. We’ve asked that question 50 times.”

Boxer said she obtained a commitment from Hamilton that the commission will state in its final report if the White House refused to answer questions about who authorized the Saudi flights after the 2001 attacks.

Hamilton, who was traveling to New York for commission hearings scheduled for today and tomorrow, could not be reached for comment.

Al Felzenberg, the commission’s spokesman, declined to comment because he said he was not familiar with the discussions with the Democratic senators.

Last month, the Sept. 11 commission released a statement declaring that six chartered flights that rushed the Saudi citizens out of the country were handled properly by the Bush administration.

In a recent interview on NBC’s “Meet The Press,” Prince Bandar said he did not discuss with Bush the need to evacuate Saudi citizens from the U.S. after Sept. 11. He said he asked the FBI for permission.

However, John Iannarelli, the FBI’s spokesman on counterterrorism activities, has denied the FBI had any “role in facilitating these flights one way or another.”

Bill Harvey, a member of the Families Steering Committee, which represents the families of the victims of the Sept. 11 attacks, said the lack of White House cooperation on identifying who authorized the Saudi flights, fit into a pattern.

Pressure from the Families Steering Committee was one of several factors that prompted the White House to agree to the creation of the Sept. 11 commission.

“I stopped being surprised about this a long time ago,” said Harvey, whose wife died in the attack on the World Trade Center. “They’ve not been cooperative. There’s cooperation and then there’s cooperation. Are they doing things under possible threat of subpoena? Yes. Are they actively fulfilling the spirit of the commission’s requests? No.”

“The White House was opposed to the formation of this commission in the first place,” said Harvey. “They did everything to neuter it. Earlier this spring when we tried to get more time for [the commission to complete its report], the White House was an obstacle.”

On the afternoon of Sept. 13, 2001, three Saudi men in their early 20s flew in a Lear jet from Tampa, Fla., to Lexington, Ky., where they boarded a Boeing 747 with Arabic writing on it waiting to take them out of the country. The flight from Tampa to Lexington was first reported in the Tampa Tribune in October 2001.

Earlier that day, the FAA had issued a notice that private aviation was banned and that three private planes that had violated the ban had been forced to land by military aircraft, according to an article late last year in Vanity Fair.

The flight from Tampa to Lexington was one of several flights that Saudi Arabian citizens took in the immediate aftermath of Sept. 11, when the rest of the country was prohibited from flying. Many of the Saudis were members of the Saudi royal family or the bin Laden family.

The New York Times has reported that bin Laden family members were driven or flown under FBI supervision to a secret meeting in Texas and then to Washington, from where they left the country when airports were allowed to open Sept. 14, 2001.

Overall, close to 140 Saudis left the U.S. days after the attacks, even though 15 of the 19 terrorists who carried out the Sept. 11 attacks were Saudi Arabian.

By contrast, prominent Americans such as former President Clinton and former Vice President Al Gore were stranded overseas during the crisis because of the freeze on air travel.

Bin Laden’s family has long disassociated itself from Osama bin Laden, head of the al Qaeda terrorist network, which was behind the terrorist attacks of Sept. 11. The family has condemned the attacks.

Nevertheless, many critics believe that law enforcement officials should have questioned the family members for any leads they might have been able to provide about bin Laden’s whereabouts, his connection to the attacks, or about possible future attacks.

The commission is scheduled to deliver its final report at the end of July.

 

[Blarneystoned]

Yeah you are still looking for facts

Now this part I find ironically funny...imagine if dumb and dumber were trying to grandstand during this whole tragedy. God works in mysterious ways.

"By contrast, prominent Americans such as former President Clinton and former Vice President Al Gore were stranded overseas during the crisis because of the freeze on air travel."



You cant use guilt by assosciation..the man had 52 children and who knows how many relatives and the fact that they departed under and embassy request with FBI approval leaves you with nothing to argue.



"Bin Laden’s family has long disassociated itself from Osama bin Laden, head of the al Qaeda terrorist network, which was behind the terrorist attacks of Sept. 11. The family has condemned the attacks"


I think you should stop beating a dead horse, pick another debate topic and we can have a better debate.

Blarneystoned

 

[shereads]

Terrorist's_Name On Manifest Raises Questions About Saudi Flights After 9/11

List and testimony indicates FBI may have allowed alleged hijacker's kin to leave U.S. with son of Saudi defense minister without questioning them.

WASHINGTON - April 4, 2004 -- Posted 07:45 ET -- TomFlocco.com -- A copy of a previously unpublished manifest, obtained_late Thursday night_and_dated September 15, 2001, provides evidence of a private Boeing-727 Saudi flight from Lexington, Kentucky to London._ But the names on the manifest_raise_serious questions about FBI policies and procedures related to witness identification, criminal investigations and obstruction of justice.

Ahmad A. M. Alhazmi, 20, (Saudi passport no. B805019) is listed on the manifest with Prince Sultan bin Fahad bin Salman bin Abdulaziz,_19, (Saudi passport no. 406_A),_son of Saudi defense minister Crown Prince Abdullah bin Abdulaziz._
The name Alhazmi and its ties to laundered Riggs Bank cashiers checks may become a subject of interest when National Security Advisor Condoleezza Rice testifies later this week--especially since young Ahmad Alhazmi has the same last name as Nawaf Alhazmi, one of the terrorists identified as an alleged_hijacker of American Airlines flight 77.__________

The White House had originally asserted that flights evacuating Saudis from the United States after 9/11 never existed, but author Craig Unger--who has written a book about clandestine Bush-Saudi relationships--obtained_flight manifest_lists which_were drawn up by the Saudi embassy.

Besides the Alhazmi list, three other manifests confirm a total of four separate Saudi flights leaving the United States on September 15, 16, 22 and 24, 2001, after the World Trade Center and Pentagon attacks._ Unger, author of "House of Bush / House of Saud:_ The Secret Relationship Between the World's Two Most Powerful Dynasties," has now posted all four manifests online._ (http://www.houseofbush.com/files.php)

Alhazmi's associates_received continued payments of $3,500. per month from Princess Haifa Al-Faisal, wife of Saudi Crown Prince Bandar bin Sultan who is Ambassador to the United States, according to sources familiar with the financial evidence. (Newsweek, 11-22-2002)

Both Saudis visited President Bush's Texas ranch in late August, 2002--before this news broke--but Americans will never hear_Mr. Bush_publicly discuss the contents of their conversations,_or_Bandar and Haifa's signed checks_made out to_terrorist associates_through his uncle's Riggs Bank._ 9/11 Commission Chairman Thomas Kean negotiated away the important opportunity for personal, public_presidential testimony under oath_in exchange for Condoleezza Rice's public testimony.

Bush and Cheney will not be under oath, allowing joint corroboration of_each other's testimony_on-the-spot regarding their actions during the key two hour time-line_of the actual attacks--thus avoiding_possible future perjury_charges and/or impeachment proceedings.

Relative of alleged hijacker permitted to leave country without questioning?__

During last week's hearing testimony, 9-11 Commissioner Timothy Roemer asked Richard Clarke, former Bush Administration National Coordinator for Counterterrorism for the National Security Council (NSC), "Who gave the final approval for the bin Laden family to leave the country without being interviewed?"_

Clarke answered that it could have been the "Inter-Agency Crisis Management Group, but most likely it was the White House Chief of Staff's office or the State Department." [according to this writer's notes / Commission transcripts for March 23 - 24, 2004_should be_available soon at http://www.9-11commission.gov/archive/index.htm_]

When Roemer asked "why the Saudis were allowed to leave the country, who was on the planes, how many, and why the decision was made," Clarke said the government "feared for their lives...some of them were bin Laden family members, and the Saudi embassy requested their evacuation."

During testimony Clarke told Roemer "I refused to approve the [Saudi] request._ I passed it on to [FBI Asst. Director] Dale Watson and the flight was approved....I don't think they were ever interviewed in this country."_ Only transcripts and/or video would negate Clarke's assertion.

Clarke only mentioned one flight._ And it is not known whether the counter-terrorism chief was kept in the dark about the other flights, as Roemer did not mention the now-public manifests._ The commission has not revealed publicly whether it knows about Ahmad Alhazmi and Prince Sultan bin Fahad, fueling speculation that an investigation of the young Alhazmi may have been suppressed by the FBI or commission executive director Philip Zelikow who controls the inner-workings of the panel's probe.

[color=dark red]Publication of the manifests raises important questions whether Kean's panel ever asked the FBI to produce interview notes or video tape, indicating that absent Watson's public testimony, the White House will never have to reveal potential evidence as to the_possibility that the young Alhazmi may be alleged hijacker Nawaf Alhazmi's brother or cousin._ If this is so, more questions arise as to why Alhazmi was traveling with the son of the Saudi Minister of Defense and what_Alhazmi knew about the attacks.[/color]

Dale Watson, who Clarke intimated as the sponsor of the FBI-approved flights and the decision not to interview bin Laden family members and other Saudi royals or citizens, was the former FBI Executive Asst. Director for Counter-Terrorism and Counter-Intelligence._

Watson led controversial investigations of the first World Trade Center attack, Oklahoma City bombing, East Africa Embassy bombings, Khobar Towers bombings, USS Cole bombing, the September 11 attacks and the anthrax attacks, before retiring_to assume a position with Booz Allen Hamilton.

The 'non-existent' flight through closed U.S. air space

There are indications that young Ahmad Alhazmi, along with Saudi prince Sultan bin Fahad, and one other young man on the Lexington to London evacuation flight, were among a select few to fly on September 13, 2001, two days after the attacks, when all planes over U.S. air space were grounded--save a few emergency medical and body-part transplant flights, one of which was forced to use a helicopter to comply with the flight ban.

Since the Lexington-London manifest lists a total of only four men of the same reasonably close age range, there is a 3 out of 4 possibility that a man with the same name as one of the alleged hijackers flew with a Saudi royal from Tampa to Lexington, Kentucky over closed U.S. air space two days after the attacks.

The special Saudi flight has been termed the "phantom flight from Florida,"_ since Atlanta Federal Aviation Administration spokesman Chris White said "It's not in our logs...it didn't occur."_ But the Tampa Tribune's multiple sources indicate that very high strings were pulled, raising more questions about the identities of the young Alhazmi and Prince.

Private investigator and former Tampa police department homicide and internal affairs officer Dan Grossi said he was told that clearance for the flight came from the White House._ This may confirm Richard Clarke's recent testimony that "most likely it was the White House Chief of Staff's office" who gave the order._
Grossi said the prince's family [Crown Prince Abdullah bin Abdulaziz] pulled a favor from former President Bush--the only indication that it was Bush 41 who first contacted Bush 43 to get the three_men out of Florida._ All this, according to the Tampa Tribune.

Tampa University (TU) spokesman George Donaldson refused to offer details but Grossi's fellow bodyguard for the young men, Manuel Perez--a former 29-year FBI counter-terrorism official and bomb technician, said the men arrived in Tampa three weeks earlier to receive tutoring in English._ This, according to the Tribune's Kathy Steele--the one who broke this neglected piece of important evidence, adding that one of the three men Grossi was contacted to protect was the son of a Saudi army commander.

Jim Harf, director of TU's international programs, confirmed that one of the three men was the son of Saudi defense minister Prince Sultan [Abdullah bin Abdulaziz], and Lexington police Lt. Mark Barnard confirmed a Saudi relative had asked for help in getting protection for the men in Tampa._ Tampa police records list Sultan bin Fahad [bin Abdulaziz] as the one requesting the security detail.

Grossi and Perez said they saw "several private 747s parked on the tarmac with foreign flags on the tails and Arabic lettering on the sides," helping to confirm the authenticity of the Saudi embassy manifests._ This, at a time when all U.S. air space was locked down by the United States military under federal orders.
The learjet carrying the three young men to Lexington, Kentucky_ took off from a private Raytheon Corporation hanger._ Raytheon is tangled throughout the events surrounding the attacks, not the least of which is the strange death of a Saudi test pilot and two Raytheon test pilots at the Pensacola Naval Air Station.

Interestingly, reporter Dan Hopsicker says the learjet was owned by multimillionaire businessman Wallace J. Hilliard of Naples, Florida, who Hopsicker says owned Huffman Aviation at the Venice Airport since its purchase in 1999--just before State Department officials began to use America's visa program_as a tool to allow_squadrons of young Arabs into the U.S. to take flying lessons at Huffman._ ( Terror Flight School Owner's Plane Seized for Heroin Trafficking and Spooks and Saudi's in Florida - http://www.madcowprod.com/_)

"Wally Hilliard owns the only charter Lear service in Southwest Florida," said a Hopsicker source._ "If a Lear was flying that day, it would have been his," raising even more questions.

Curiously, in July, 2000, one of Hilliard's jets was seized by federal agents with more than 30 pounds of heroin onboard at the Orlando Executive Airport._ This, at a time when Florida governor Jeb Bush honored Hilliard's operation--Florida Air, Sunrise Airlines and Discover Air--with personal visits and posed for photos with what Hopsicker called the "Discover Air family."

Questions can be raised about Hilliard's operation, which supported a special presidential favor for a Saudi defense minister's son, a Saudi army commander's son,_and_also their friend--who may have been the relative of an alleged_hijacker._ Anyone who followed the Afghanistan war knows that the chief product for export by Osama bin Laden's terrorist organization was heroin--another source of funds to support terrorism in America._

Hopsicker said local police collected all the hijacker flight training files from Hilliard's Huffman Aviation School the day after the attacks--detailing information that would have confirmed or denied the flight capabilities of the hijackers and sources of their funding support._

Just five days before the attacks on September 7, Governor Bush signed executive order No. 01-261, declaring the authority "to order members of the Florida National Guard into active service...to support law enforcement and emergency management in the the event of civil disturbances or natural disasters..."

Curiously, according to one local law enforcement official, “The FBI took all our files, everything.” Then he added, “they loaded two Ryder trucks right outside that (police station) window, then drove them right onto a [Florida National Guard] C130 military cargo plane at Sarasota airport which flew out with [Governor] Jeb Bush aboard.”

No one knows where the President's brother went with the FBI officials and the hijacker flight training evidence, fueling speculation that both Congress and the 9-11 Commission are hiding something by refusing to call the Florida governor to testify publicly about why he activated the National Guard and what happened to the terrorist's records--documents that_should be considered_crucial evidence.

[color=dark red]Journalist Catherine Arnie posed some interesting questions that the 9-11 Commission should be asking Condoleezza Rice this Thursday:_ How could our governement have authorized a flight out of the country before they even knew who the perpetrators of the attacks were?_ Why did the families of the young men "perceive a threat" when it wasn't yet clear on the 13th of September exactly WHO had attacked America or where they were from? (http://www.democrats.com/view.cfm?id=14289)[/color]

Arnie said according to a transcript on the State Department website of a statement given by a "senior government official," on September 13 at 5:22 pm, it had not yet been announced that Osama bin Laden was behind the attacks when protection was requested for the three young men by Bush 41 and Bush 43.

 

[shereads]

This is interesting (excerpt from the article just posted, for those who don't want to read all the way through):

Why did the families of the young men "perceive a threat" when it wasn't yet clear on the 13th of September exactly WHO had attacked America or where they were from? (http://www.democrats.com/view.cfm?id=14289)

Arnie said according to a transcript on the State Department website of a statement given by a "senior government official," on September 13 at 5:22 pm, it had not yet been announced that Osama bin Laden was behind the attacks when protection was requested for the three young men by Bush 41 and Bush 43.

 

[Blarneystoned]

Better, but still treading water

How about the actual passenger manifests and terrorists charges assosciated with them. I like the money laundering thing, but that is not a terrorist activity.

Try and find a link like the money laundered was given to Bin Laden and they bought fertilizer and gasoline with it or something.

I think part of the problem you are having is that you keep getting newspapers for evidence. If the newspaper doesnt research enough then your arguement is weak.

Another thing to think about...if we have so much money and connections with the Sauds...then dont you think if they have someone we want....they will cough him up...we do have a military base there you know. The CIA could easily nab someone in Rhiyad.

Better but no cigar...

Blarneystoned

 

[shereads]

One thing is clear from all of this: Bush ordered Tenet and Clark to find a link between Saddam and 9/ll, and they couldn't do it; by contrast, if he had been curious about the fact that the hijackers were Saudis, and wondered if there was a link, he had only to order interviews with these 300 Sauds and bin Ladens before they were smuggled out of the country. Since one young man was evidently a brother of one of the hijackers, it seems as if he might have had something useful to offer about acquaintances of his brother, etc. Or not. We'll never know, and the administration went to an enormous amount of trouble to make sure we won't.

So much for Bush's devotion to tracking down the Evildoers.

The Three Stooges of the Apocolypse. Could this have been handled any worse?

 

[shereads]

A pre-bedtime bump. I hope amicus wakes up and finds this one first. He'll be as excited as a kid on christmas day.

 

[Guest]

for Sher

PETARD: A small bomb used to blow in a door or gate.

If it wasn’t for its appearance in Shakespeare’s Hamlet: “For ‘tis the sport to have the enginer / Hoist with his owne petar” and its fossil survival in the rather more modern spelling to be hoist with one’s own petard, this term of warfare would have gone the way of the halberd, brattice and culverin.

A petard was a bell-shaped metal grenade typically filled with five or six pounds of gunpowder and set off by a fuse. Sappers dug a tunnel or covered trench up to a building and fixed the device to a door, barricade, drawbridge or the like to break it open. The bomb was held in place with a heavy beam called a madrier.
Unfortunately, the devices were unreliable and often went off unexpectedly. Hence the expression, where hoist meant to be lifted up, an understated description of the result of being blown up by your own bomb. The name of the device came from the Latin petar, to break wind, perhaps a sarcastic comment about the thin noise of a muffled explosion at the far end of an excavation.

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