The Female Gaze

[stickygirl]

Recently I watched an interview of the director and cast of a French made film, Portrait of a Lady on Fire, when one of them said ‘…you know, the female gaze’ which puzzled me because actually ‘no’, I didn’t know.

There was thread here where an author was asking for help in writing or editing the words he’d written for a female character: was he looking for the female gaze? My curiosity piqued, I dug further and I hope it makes a worthwhile discussion but I apologise that the intro is a bit lengthy.

The sexes have been eternally exasperated in trying to understand each other “You wouldn’t understand” “I’ve given up trying”; Venus v Mars, so perhaps this new question can throw some light on it?

What the female gaze isn’t, is a mirror image of male gaze. What is male gaze? Reference 95% of Hollywoood’s output ever and you’re there: yup it’s the lazy eye-candy that keeps female actors as accessories to the male storyline. Think waitress with revealing bust, putting a couple of beers in front of some A-lister hard man and his handler. She walks away, the eyes follow, so too the comments yadayada.. You cannot simply flip that stereotype to end up with Brad Pitt dropping off martinis while showing his abs to the camera. So that isn’t female gaze.

Unsurprisingly the f-gaze isn’t simple. Certainly there is an element of feminism ( equal job, equal pay, equal opportunities ) and there also is a rejection of objectification ( ornaments with tits ). To get closer to its definition we need to think about the object or subject of the gaze and scrutinize who does the gazing.

The objectifying male gaze is not unique: there’s a medical gaze (doctor/patient), CCTV observation, even Zoom meetings, so this isn’t about male-bashing or chauvinism; rather it is an alternative, but one which seldom has chance to flourish. The dynamic of gaze is not lost on portrait painters who provide us with eyes to follow us around the room. That asymmetric objectification is rejected in the work of Helen Delmaire, the artist commission the produce the portraits in the film Portrait of Lady on Fire. She obscures the sitter’s eyes to rob us the opportunity of a free look.

We get closer to an answer by looking at the works of female directors and script writers, who strive to engage us, the audience, empathetically. Instead of a collective audience, we find ourselves as individuals, sharing the emotions set out for us.

It is easy to dismiss the objectification we see in action male-centric films as stereotype but consider how pervasive it has become: we anticipate the formula before we even buy the cinema ticket. We are all so conditioned by its repetition that we seldom question it and even welcome its familiarity “I love Mission Impossible films – they’re good fun”. We enjoy watching people being killed on screen, we eat our popcorn and we talk about something completely different as we leave the theatre.

The films I prefer, and since I’m addressing creative writers I know I am not alone, are the ones that stay with me for days. We find ourselves mulling over scenes and are frustrated that they are not easily discussed “… then the whole building collapsed under him as he jumped” can elicit a brief “yea, that was awesome!” but if we wish to discuss “…when do you think they knew they were in love?” it requires not just time, but interpretation and an emotional memory of the scene.

My examples are necessarily provocative but I do not intend the men to either roll their eyes or splutter over their coffee “…but that’s not me! I think about films – I love those films!” Exactly: empathy is not exclusive to one sex or another, but one thing is certain, there is not enough of it.

What do you think? This has been bugging me so I hope now if bugs you. The bug-baton is handed on

 

[SimonDoom]

My take is that one doesn't necessarily need to choose. If I'm being honest, I'm an avid practitioner of the male gaze: I love looking at women. There may be all kinds of social conditioning that affect and influence it, but I'm enough of a believer in nature to believe that I and other men are wired this way, to at least some degree, and probably more than women are, on average.

I enjoy movies with eye candy. But I enjoy other kinds of movies as well. I see no reason why I cannot enjoy many kinds of movies, with different kinds of gazes.

My stories are strongly influenced by the male gaze, or, more accurately, by my own gaze. It strongly influences what turns me on, what I like to read, and what I like to write.

An ongoing source of curiosity and mystery for me, and I suppose for many other men, is how women see men, because I think it's hard for us sometimes to imagine ways of looking other than our own. I'm certainly receptive to making a point of watching more movies or reading more stories that emphasize the female gaze over the male one.

 

[HeyAll]

My first time hearing "the female gaze" is from a documentary on sex in movies, which I think was from Sundance.

They talked about a movie where a young woman lost her virginity and there was a camera shot of her point-of-view looking up at the ceiling. It was made by a woman director. A commentor mentioned that only a female director would use that kind of angle.

By contrast, a "male gaze" are gratuitous shots of women in tiny clothing, going up and down her legs. I never liked this images in movies. They cheapen the movie.

By contrast, I recall a research study saying that most women enjoy the same types of porn as men. Hardcore stuff.

I think it's the same with video games. Many women are gamers, but they don't want it watered down for them.

 

[Ginlover]

Women like men are all different. An attractive friend is with an unattractive man (in my eyes) her ex was a fitness freak body builder, sculpted to perfection. I once asked why she is so in love with the newer guy (it's been 5 or so years do he is not that new). She said he makes me feel the most beautiful woman every day. She could list his humour, kindness, affection but the reason she had gone past the first date is he made her feel beautiful.

I'll guess a few men will read that and think I just need to flatter or woman or by not being as attractive I'll make her look better. Many women will read that and understand what my friend meant, he makes her feel special, a perfect model could arrive in the room and thou he might acknowledge she is a beautiful woman it's the woman he is with who will get his gaze of true affection, wonder and love.

Me its laughter, eye contact and a smile that reaches a man's eyes. If he has those I wont see the thinning hair or the growing gut. If i am dancing in the kitchen and dont see him come in as I spot him I catch that quick smirk he tries to hide as he knows I'll be embarrassed that's the smile that I love.

When I look at a man I want to get glimpses of his soul, then I know if I might find him attractive. Is that the gaze you're asking us to explain?

 

[Enchantment_of_Nyx]

It's an extremely complicated subject, and I can't do justice to it in a comment, so I'll just pick at a little piece of it that interests me the most. Female gaze isn't just about what the camera is showing, but how it's showing it. Exactly the same scene shot by a male cinematographer and a female cinematographer would look completely different. To some extent, everyone's version would look different, but people who've described the female gaze note recognizable differences between the way men tend to film things and how women tend to film things.

Camera angle, which establishes the point of view, is likely to be different, as is the distance to the camera. Lighting may be different and filters may be different. Where the camera is focused will almost certainly be different at some points. People who have looked at this suggest that in addition to being less objectifying, the female gaze leans more in the direction of intimate portraits or emotional expression and less in the direction of action and "eye candy," for lack of a better word. I don't just mean "eye candy" in a sexual sense, since the female gaze is about far more than sexual situations.

This shouldn't be misunderstood to mean that a man can't film something in a female-friendly way, or vice versa. After all, women in the film industry have been capturing the male gaze for years. We are raised on the male gaze. When the people behind the cameras have been raised seeing both types of gazes (and what lies on the spectrum between, or outside of it), I expect that men will find it easier to understand what the female gaze is and how to capture it. They can learn it now, if they choose, but it will take more of a conscious effort.

The male gaze isn't limited to film. You find it in books, too. I've heard and seen the subject discussed before, and there are always people who are immediately insistent that there is no such thing. I find that odd. It is particularly bemusing when men who have never seen anything but the male gaze insist that it's the only gaze and that we all see things that way. I don't. I assume some women do, either because that's what they've seen all along or because that's their natural inclination. It's obvious, though, that plenty of women disagree that the male gaze is the only gaze or that there is no "male gaze" and "female gaze."

It's fairly common to hear men express frustration with not understanding how women think. I'd think the subject of the female gaze would interest them. I think that if I grew up consuming only the female gaze, I'd be incredibly curious about the male gaze. I think I'd want to learn everything I could about it. It would literally be a window on the way men see things. I wouldn't even attempt to refute it until I had wrung every possible insight from it.

 

[anniebaby10]

Women like men are all different. An attractive friend is with an unattractive man (in my eyes) her ex was a fitness freak body builder, sculpted to perfection. I once asked why she is so in love with the newer guy (it's been 5 or so years do he is not that new). She said he makes me feel the most beautiful woman every day. She could list his humour, kindness, affection but the reason she had gone past the first date is he made her feel beautiful.

I'll guess a few men will read that and think I just need to flatter or woman or by not being as attractive I'll make her look better. Many women will read that and understand what my friend meant, he makes her feel special, a perfect model could arrive in the room and thou he might acknowledge she is a beautiful woman it's the woman he is with who will get his gaze of true affection, wonder and love.

Me its laughter, eye contact and a smile that reaches a man's eyes. If he has those I wont see the thinning hair or the growing gut. If i am dancing in the kitchen and dont see him come in as I spot him I catch that quick smirk he tries to hide as he knows I'll be embarrassed that's the smile that I love.

When I look at a man I want to get glimpses of his soul, then I know if I might find him attractive. Is that the gaze you're asking us to explain?

I agree...... both sexes no matter your sexual preference, gay, straight, bi, lesbian, all want to be in a long term relationship with someone that provides them "positive energy". Someone who will be totally vulnerable and open, will allow us to do the same, someone we trust with our lives..... it is an emotional feeling. Sometimes that is taken advantage of by a manipulating person and hopefully that is apparent to a woman because betrayal of that trust the worst thing you can do to a person. So that is my perspective

 

[Omenainen]

I’m just mightily annoyed by anything that’s labeled “female this” or “male that”. I never seem to belong to anything in that kind of framing. I think I’m personally somewhere in the murky middle waters where everything is a matter of personal preference. And I do recognize the male gaze in films the OP described, and I think it’s stupid, but I don’t believe in a mystic female gaze to counterpoint it. Maybe I just wish there were more different kind of gazes to follow, mainly that there would be a greater variety in how for example film industry presents things.

 

[vanmyers86]

This is a really interesting question, and there are so many angles to it that we could talk for the rest of day and not get to them all. I am working on a story today and don't have all day to play, but I'll contribute this for now:

From its debut, the show Outlander has sparked a lot of press about the female gaze. It was kind of depressing in way to realize how new the concept was for a lot of folks, but better late than never, right? One example If you're unclear on the concept of the female gaze, this and other articles are a good place to start.

I look forward to reading and talking more about this later!

 

[jaF0]

One person's longing gaze can be another's creepy leer.

 

[Omenainen]

.


It's fairly common to hear men express frustration with not understanding how women think. I'd think the subject of the female gaze would interest them. I think that if I grew up consuming only the female gaze, I'd be incredibly curious about the male gaze. I think I'd want to learn everything I could about it. It would literally be a window on the way men see things. I wouldn't even attempt to refute it until I had wrung every possible insight from it.

There’s quite a lot of people I don’t understand at all but gender doesn’t seem to be a defining factor in that.

I agree...... both sexes no matter your sexual preference, gay, straight, bi, lesbian, all want to be in a long term relationship with someone that provides them "positive energy". Someone who will be totally vulnerable and open, will allow us to do the same, someone we trust with our lives..... it is an emotional feeling. Sometimes that is taken advantage of by a manipulating person and hopefully that is apparent to a woman because betrayal of that trust the worst thing you can do to a person. So that is my perspective

Many do, I suppose. And some want a trophy wife, or toy boy, or sugar daddy. People are just weird.

 

[MelissaBaby]

I’m just mightily annoyed by anything that’s labeled “female this” or “male that”. I never seem to belong to anything in that kind of framing. I think I’m personally somewhere in the murky middle waters where everything is a matter of personal preference. And I do recognize the male gaze in films the OP described, and I think it’s stupid, but I don’t believe in a mystic female gaze to counterpoint it. Maybe I just wish there were more different kind of gazes to follow, mainly that there would be a greater variety in how for example film industry presents things.

If you want to see a great variety of views, maybe allowing room for a second one would be a good place to start.

What is "mystic" about women presenting their own perspectives?

Oh, and describing the female gaze as a "counterpoint" assumes that the male gaze is a default norm.

 

[MelissaBaby]

Male director / Female director

 

[gunhilltrain]

I agree...... both sexes no matter your sexual preference, gay, straight, bi, lesbian, all want to be in a long term relationship with someone that provides them "positive energy". Someone who will be totally vulnerable and open, will allow us to do the same, someone we trust with our lives..... it is an emotional feeling. Sometimes that is taken advantage of by a manipulating person and hopefully that is apparent to a woman because betrayal of that trust the worst thing you can do to a person. So that is my perspective

This is also a response to Enchantment_of_Nyx above. What I'd say about this post is that there are a lot of people of whatever gender or orientation who are quite avid for the most casual of hook-ups. It's true that most of them will in the longer-term want something deeper, but in the short-term anything goes.

I like writing about female characters, but do I know what I'm talking about? I don't know. I may rely somewhat on people I have known, but a lot of it I just make up and hope for the best.

If a woman reading it doesn't like it, she can call me out on it, but that rarely happens. On the other site I'm on, I've had some woman who've really liked what I've done. On this site, I can only remember one from a long time ago who disagreed. It was more about what she herself wouldn't do; maybe it wasn't about larger issues.

In fact, the most flak I've gotten on this site seems to be from men. Although, when they're anonymous, I can only guess who they really are. You'll have to trust me in that I can usually tell from their tone and content that they are male.

 

[Omenainen]

If you want to see a great variety of views, maybe allowing room for a second one would be a good place to start.

What is "mystic" about women presenting their own perspectives?

Oh, and describing the female gaze as a "counterpoint" assumes that the male gaze is a default norm.

Sorry, didn’t mean it like that. I’m speaking beside the subject, I know. I’m all for smashing the patriarchy in every imaginable form. Just that it rubs me the wrong way when there’s something labeled female and something else labeled male and it sounds like those are the only options and you have to choose. That wasn’t the issue here so I’m just building my own straw men.

 

[SimonDoom]

It's fairly common to hear men express frustration with not understanding how women think. I'd think the subject of the female gaze would interest them. I think that if I grew up consuming only the female gaze, I'd be incredibly curious about the male gaze. I think I'd want to learn everything I could about it. It would literally be a window on the way men see things. I wouldn't even attempt to refute it until I had wrung every possible insight from it.

My attitude is one of curiosity, not frustration. The word frustration suggests an unjustified annoyance that women aren't making it easier for us to know how they think. I'm inclined to think the problem is much more that we're raised not to care (generalization, I know) and we don't try hard enough to understand. At the same time, I certainly have known women whose communication styles are overly coy or passive-aggressive.

So, on that note, does anyone have recommendations for stories here at Literotica that in your opinion illustrate "the female gaze?"

 

[Enchantment_of_Nyx]

This is also a response to Enchantment_of_Nyx above. What I'd say about this post is that there are a lot of people of whatever gender or orientation who are quite avid for the most casual of hook-ups. It's true that most of them will in the longer-term want something deeper, but in the short-term anything goes.

I like writing about female characters, but do I know what I'm talking about? I don't know. I may rely somewhat on people I have known, but a lot of it I just make up and hope for the best.

If a woman reading it doesn't like it, she can call me out on it, but that rarely happens. On the other site I'm on, I've had some woman who've really liked what I've done. On this site, I can only remember one from a long time ago who disagreed. It was more about what she herself wouldn't do; maybe it wasn't about larger issues.

In fact, the most flak I've gotten on this site seems to be from men. Although, when they're anonymous, I can only guess who they really are. You'll have to trust me in that I can usually tell from their tone and content that they are male.

I'm afraid you've lost me. I wasn't talking about relationships at all. The concept, as I understand it, is the perspective of the person telling the story, and how it is told differently depending on who is doing the telling. It's not really about liking or not liking any particular piece of work, either. It's about trying to capture a different point of view.

I enjoy plenty of movies and books that capture the male gaze. Wanting to see more than capture the female gaze doesn't make that less true, and it doesn't mean that women can't enjoy books written with the male gaze. This isn't like men's and women's bathrooms!

 

[Enchantment_of_Nyx]

I’m just mightily annoyed by anything that’s labeled “female this” or “male that”. I never seem to belong to anything in that kind of framing. I think I’m personally somewhere in the murky middle waters where everything is a matter of personal preference. And I do recognize the male gaze in films the OP described, and I think it’s stupid, but I don’t believe in a mystic female gaze to counterpoint it. Maybe I just wish there were more different kind of gazes to follow, mainly that there would be a greater variety in how for example film industry presents things.

I can understand that. Hence, this:

...When the people behind the cameras have been raised seeing both types of gazes (and what lies on the spectrum between, or outside of it)...

I think the point is that movies, books and TV and given us a pretty consistent diet of a particular point of view. The female viewpoint is something that's been the subject of some academic treatment, and since females are half the population, it's a reasonable place to start. I think we'll find that "gaze" encompasses far more than gender, and the point is that we need diversity behind the camera as well as in front of it.
.[/QUOTE]

 

[stickygirl]

I am not a film-maker, nor have I been on set as one is made, but I am convinced that on a set where the director, director of photography and the actors are all women, the dynamic would be entirely different compared to a predominantly male one and of course so would the final result.

I’d heard of the rape scene referred to by HeyAll, but in trying to find the particular reference, I was appalled how many references there are to rapes in film. We get it - do we need so many rapes, either artistically or horrifically filmed, wheeled out for our consumption? What does that do to us?

There’s nothing wrong with looking at women Simon, but looking shouldn’t be an end to itself. Even casting women in leads roles is not without it’s dangers. Certainly women would like to see more strong female characters in movies: our children should have heroes of both sexes, in equal measure. The original series of Lara Croft is a fail in this respect. I was excited when the Tomb Raider games came out and when I got hold of a copy to play - I felt empowered by it. By contrast the first film series made me feel I needed to wash my brain.

It’s acknowledged that men respond more to visual stimuli than women: why else does the expression eye-candy exist? If women prefer a more varied diet for their senses, then the film industry needs to man-up and decide to encourage more female directors….no that’s not quite right… they need to stop discouraging female directors. Good stories and their telling should be enjoyed by both sexes, everyone, but can’t we have both options in the menu? Yes, we can.

I’m glad this is providing some discussion and grateful for your thoughts

 

[SimonDoom]

This thread is giving me some ideas for a story I'm working on, so thanks to OP for that.

I usually write stories where the woman is the object of lust, desire, and male gaze. A man might be a lead character, but he's not the one, principally, who's being looked at. It's natural for me to write this way because I enjoy thinking about and writing about women.

So to try something different I'm writing an exhibitionist CFNM story, where a man will be naked and on display, viewed by several women at a small party. Until now the focus of the story was going to be on the man's feeling as an exhibitionist, which will be a departure for me, but thinking about this thread I'm going to focus also on the perspectives of the women observing him, and I think I'm going to focus on the different ways each of them looks at him. It should be an interesting way to give the story a little more depth and interest.

 

[stickygirl]

I've just discovered this YT which has stolen my thunder. I was going to cite What Women Want as a fail and to be honest, it's an easy target but Wit and Folly have it covered along with much else [16 mins]. Interestingly Female is swapped for Feminine gaze in order to de-gender the title ( un-gender? ) but the word feminine has too many unwelcome resonances for me. Maybe we just need a better title if the binary m/f is proving a sticking point?

 

[vanmyers86]

I've just discovered this YT which has stolen my thunder. I was going to cite What Women Want as a fail and to be honest, it's an easy target but Wit and Folly have it covered along with much else [16 mins]. Interestingly Female is swapped for Feminine gaze in order to de-gender the title ( un-gender? ) but the word feminine has too many unwelcome resonances for me. Maybe we just need a better title if the binary m/f is proving a sticking point?

Very interesting video,stickygirl. Thanks for posting the link.

 

[MetaBob]

I probably can't respond intelligibly without being labeled a sexist trog, but ...

I'm used to being objectified by women. I'm used to coming home from a run, removing my shirt in a sheltered, private space to cool off while gardening, having my landlady drive up to talk about something and seeing her go slack-jawed and unable to speak upon seeing me in my shorts and running shoes, still shiny from sweat. I'm used to that same landlady bringing a female friend on her next visit, both of them nodding to each other and telling me I look good.

I'm used to seeing an absolute knockout of a woman playing volleyball on a different court from mine, making frequent and sustained eye contact, and having friends (male *AND* female) say how obvious it was that we were mentally undressing each other. I met my partner that way, actually, along with several other women who were quite forward in their attentions even though we'd never met before, to the point of intimating sex, or in two cases several meetings later being much more explicit. Several of these women were friends with each other, which still puzzles me.

Or one of the most popular cheerleaders in school asking me out when I'm just a random introverted nobody geek, albeit one with scholar cred. Or an NFL cheerleader who wanted me to come to her room after our first, brief meeting. Or a woman I'd never met before actually stopping the elevator we were riding together alone in, pulling me down for a kiss and pressing herself close, her hands behind my neck. Or signing up for a dating service in New York City and immediately seeing my video and profile featured on their front page. I got a lot of hits from that.

I'm used to female bicyclists overtaking me to start a conversation or ask directions to somewhere they already know how to go, then when they realize that I have a little gray in my hair, sprinting away in what I later realized was embarrassment for having mistaken me for a man their age -- from behind while I'm wearing a helmet there's not much visual difference.

I'm used to women in the grocery store, or in a parking lot outside, or in a restaurant or shop, stopping in my path in a place where there's no way for me to get past them without asking. Usually with very intentional, challenging eye contact. I actually included a scene from life in one of my pieces, where my protagonist meets a "Chilean girl" about halfway down the first page. (Note that while the first paragraph of that scene happened exactly as described, the rest is fantasy.)

Every single one of these women was young and flat-out gorgeous, so it wasn't like they couldn't have just about any man they wanted. Many, including my partner, have complimented me quite explicitly on my appearance, telling me it was what attracted them in the first place.

I can't accept that these experiences are unique to me: a hetero, athletic, well-educated, considerate, not unattractive man. My experiences have taught me that women can also be visual in their choices, at least for the short-term. I actually started a new piece three days ago exploring similar themes, again based on a real-life encounter I had this week. I hope to have it ready for this year's Summer Lovin' contest.

I think it's much more sexist to believe that there's no such thing as a female gaze, though I would certainly agree that among my gender it's more prevalent.

 

[Enchantment_of_Nyx]

I'm used to being objectified by women. I'm used to coming home from a run, removing my shirt in a sheltered, private space to cool off while gardening, having my landlady drive up to talk about something and seeing her go slack-jawed and unable to speak upon seeing me in my shorts and running shoes, still shiny from sweat. I'm used to that same landlady bringing a female friend on her next visit, both of them nodding to each other and telling me I look good.

I'm used to seeing an absolute knockout of a woman playing volleyball on a different court from mine, making frequent and sustained eye contact, and having friends (male *AND* female) say how obvious it was that we were mentally undressing each other. I met my partner that way, actually, along with several other women who were quite forward in their attentions even though we'd never met before, to the point of intimating sex, or in two cases several meetings later being much more explicit. Several of these women were friends with each other, which still puzzles me.

Or one of the most popular cheerleaders in school asking me out when I'm just a random introverted nobody geek, albeit one with scholar cred. Or an NFL cheerleader who wanted me to come to her room after our first, brief meeting. Or a woman I'd never met before actually stopping the elevator we were riding together alone in, pulling me down for a kiss and pressing herself close, her hands behind my neck. Or signing up for a dating service in New York City and immediately seeing my video and profile featured on their front page. I got a lot of hits from that.

I'm used to female bicyclists overtaking me to start a conversation or ask directions to somewhere they already know how to go, then when they realize that I have a little gray in my hair, sprinting away in what I later realized was embarrassment for having mistaken me for a man their age -- from behind while I'm wearing a helmet there's not much visual difference.

I'm used to women in the grocery store, or in a parking lot outside, or in a restaurant or shop, stopping in my path in a place where there's no way for me to get past them without asking. Usually with very intentional, challenging eye contact. I actually included a scene from life in one of my pieces, where my protagonist meets a "Chilean girl" about halfway down the first page. (Note that while the first paragraph of that scene happened exactly as described, the rest is fantasy.)

Every single one of these women was young and flat-out gorgeous, so it wasn't like they couldn't have just about any man they wanted. Many, including my partner, have complimented me quite explicitly on my appearance, telling me it was what attracted them in the first place.

I can't accept that these experiences are unique to me: a hetero, athletic, well-educated, considerate, not unattractive man. My experiences have taught me that women can also be visual in their choices, at least for the short-term. I actually started a new piece three days ago exploring similar themes, again based on a real-life encounter I had this week. I hope to have it ready for this year's Summer Lovin' contest.

I think it's much more sexist to believe that there's no such thing as a female gaze, though I would certainly agree that among my gender it's more prevalent.

And you're absolutely sure these throngs of women don't want you for your charming personality and modesty?

 

[MetaBob]

And you're absolutely sure these throngs of women don't want you for your charming personality and modesty?

The only thing I'm sure of is the title of my previous post: "I probably can't respond intelligibly without being labeled a sexist trog."

It's weird to me that opening up and truth-telling like I did would immediately be denigrated (or at best satirized), but that's the world we live in.

 

[gunhilltrain]

I'm afraid you've lost me. I wasn't talking about relationships at all. The concept, as I understand it, is the perspective of the person telling the story, and how it is told differently depending on who is doing the telling. It's not really about liking or not liking any particular piece of work, either. It's about trying to capture a different point of view.

I enjoy plenty of movies and books that capture the male gaze. Wanting to see more than capture the female gaze doesn't make that less true, and it doesn't mean that women can't enjoy books written with the male gaze. This isn't like men's and women's bathrooms!

You almost lost me too, but I think we may be in agreement. I was trying to suggest that men, almost by definition, can't truly capture the female gaze. But I also suggested that there may be interesting results anyway - which is what you said too. You gave me a 5 on the Valerie Solanas story. Was Mary Harron's take on her (the movie) just different, not necessarily better? I guess that's what you meant by the bathroom analogy.

So is it women's job to go out there and do it? Well, yeah, historically movie producers, publishers and so forth have stopped them or slowed them down. Maybe with the Internet there are greater opportunities. Isn't that sort of what Literotica is all about?