SINthysist
Rural Racist Homophobe
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Could the model be flawed?
Could the model be flawed?
Could the model be flawed?
Could the model be flawed?
Could the model be flawed?
The fascist menace
- Thread starter REDWAVE
- Start date
M
miles
Guest
This thread is hilarious.
REDWAVE
Urban Jungle Dweller
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Second reply to phrodeau
Thank you for your questions, phrodeau.
After the revolution, the capitalists will be forgiven for their crimes, and allowed to share in the benefits of socialist society-- provided, of course, they are willing to follow the rules of the new socialist society. The first and foremost rule is that class privilege and class oppression will be totally abolished.
As for what would be the "coin of this realm," it would be naive and utopian for me to attempt to specify such details in advance. However, I do note that money, especially at the upper levels, is electronic, transferred through EFT's (electronic fund transfers), and essentially consists of electrical charges representing 0's and 1's. Money has become highly abstract. As for how it can be distributed fairly, again that will be decided democratically by the workers and peasants (farmers), acting through their own institutions of power: workers councils. The local workers council, in which all adults have an equal voice and vote, will be the core institution of socialist society. Fairness will be ensured by no one being poor, and no one filthy rich. There will be some inequality still, though: those with special skills (doctors, engineers, etc.) and/or are more productive, work more hours, will be compensated more.
I believe most people today do regard all people as equal, at least in the sense of having equal rights, but many are oppressed and ground down. Those who have some form of bias against others will be discouraged, mainly through peer pressure, from acting upon those biases. Values of liberty, equality, and fraternity-- the classic values of the French Revolution-- will be taught in the schools and in most homes.
I believe bias and prejudice are deliberately stirred up and perpetuated by the capitalist ruling class in order to divide and control the oppressed masses. They can be easily swept away simply by society encouraging people to follow their natural proclivities toward community and tolerance, and rewarding and reinforcing such behavior.
Thank you for your questions, phrodeau.
After the revolution, the capitalists will be forgiven for their crimes, and allowed to share in the benefits of socialist society-- provided, of course, they are willing to follow the rules of the new socialist society. The first and foremost rule is that class privilege and class oppression will be totally abolished.
As for what would be the "coin of this realm," it would be naive and utopian for me to attempt to specify such details in advance. However, I do note that money, especially at the upper levels, is electronic, transferred through EFT's (electronic fund transfers), and essentially consists of electrical charges representing 0's and 1's. Money has become highly abstract. As for how it can be distributed fairly, again that will be decided democratically by the workers and peasants (farmers), acting through their own institutions of power: workers councils. The local workers council, in which all adults have an equal voice and vote, will be the core institution of socialist society. Fairness will be ensured by no one being poor, and no one filthy rich. There will be some inequality still, though: those with special skills (doctors, engineers, etc.) and/or are more productive, work more hours, will be compensated more.
I believe most people today do regard all people as equal, at least in the sense of having equal rights, but many are oppressed and ground down. Those who have some form of bias against others will be discouraged, mainly through peer pressure, from acting upon those biases. Values of liberty, equality, and fraternity-- the classic values of the French Revolution-- will be taught in the schools and in most homes.
I believe bias and prejudice are deliberately stirred up and perpetuated by the capitalist ruling class in order to divide and control the oppressed masses. They can be easily swept away simply by society encouraging people to follow their natural proclivities toward community and tolerance, and rewarding and reinforcing such behavior.
HeavyStick
Anti-M 0derator
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Re: Second reply to phrodeau
now to truly appreciate the post... you have to smell the post
http://www.mountvernon.org/pioneer/images/manure.jpg
REDWAVE said:
now to truly appreciate the post... you have to smell the post
http://www.mountvernon.org/pioneer/images/manure.jpg
Weird Harold
Opinionated Old Fart
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REDWAVE said:
Bias and prejudice are more often the result of ignorance than they are the result of any capitalist conspiracy. Your faith in "human nature" is admirable, but very much misplaced.
EVERY attempt at the kind of utopia you propose has failed because bias and prejudice are basic part of human nature and even with cradle to grave indoctrination, has brought every utopian experiment down.
REDWAVE
Urban Jungle Dweller
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Nature/nurture
Now you're getting into the old nature vs. nurture debate, Weird. Both are important factors, of course, but I believe nurture-- environment-- is in general much more important. Of course, there are always some exceptions here and there. There is no such thing as "human nature," only human behavior, which is almost infinitely malleable and shaped primarily by the environment in which it exists. I don't have faith in human nature, but I do have faith in the power and effectiveness of societal conditioning.
Now you're getting into the old nature vs. nurture debate, Weird. Both are important factors, of course, but I believe nurture-- environment-- is in general much more important. Of course, there are always some exceptions here and there. There is no such thing as "human nature," only human behavior, which is almost infinitely malleable and shaped primarily by the environment in which it exists. I don't have faith in human nature, but I do have faith in the power and effectiveness of societal conditioning.
Oliver Clozoff
SirRealism
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You're not too up on your biology, are ya Red?
Your political philosophy seems to be stuck around 1875 or so. Take a look at the last 30 years of psychological and neurobiological research and you'll see that while human behavior is the most malleable of all animal species, there are definitely some well-defined limits. Human brain development has many many more rigid and fixed parameters during development than we have ever thought possible. If there's anything that has characterized our history as a species it's that we've thought ourselves to be a lot more special than we are (the sole creation made in the image of a loving God stationed at the center of the entire universe which revolved around us, etc).
All of this isn't to say to say that social tinkering won't do any good. In fact, it can do a fantastic amount of good. But it's only by learning more about our nature and somehow harnessing our individual rapaciousness and minimizing its negative consequences.
You can put a chicken-hawk egg in a chicken nest, and the hen will incubate and feed it as her own. But it won't grow up to act like a chicken, Red. Once it grows up, it'll hunt its siblings.
Like Popeye says, "I yam what I yam".
Your political philosophy seems to be stuck around 1875 or so. Take a look at the last 30 years of psychological and neurobiological research and you'll see that while human behavior is the most malleable of all animal species, there are definitely some well-defined limits. Human brain development has many many more rigid and fixed parameters during development than we have ever thought possible. If there's anything that has characterized our history as a species it's that we've thought ourselves to be a lot more special than we are (the sole creation made in the image of a loving God stationed at the center of the entire universe which revolved around us, etc).
All of this isn't to say to say that social tinkering won't do any good. In fact, it can do a fantastic amount of good. But it's only by learning more about our nature and somehow harnessing our individual rapaciousness and minimizing its negative consequences.
You can put a chicken-hawk egg in a chicken nest, and the hen will incubate and feed it as her own. But it won't grow up to act like a chicken, Red. Once it grows up, it'll hunt its siblings.
Like Popeye says, "I yam what I yam".
Weird Harold
Opinionated Old Fart
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Re: Nature/nurture
How do you explain the failure of every utopian experiment then? There have been many throughout history, and all have failed even with total control over the "nuture" aspect.
REDWAVE said:
How do you explain the failure of every utopian experiment then? There have been many throughout history, and all have failed even with total control over the "nuture" aspect.
M
miles
Guest
Re: Re: Nature/nurture
He doesn't explain. He excretes.
Weird Harold said:
He doesn't explain. He excretes.
teddybear4play
better when i'm drunk
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Re: Reply to phrodeau
We must draw an important distinction between self-interest and selfishness. Wanting to better oneself and make more money to lead a better life or provide better lives for one's family is a perfectly acceptable goal. It's not being greedy.
Capitalism, when properly practiced, allows for people to maximize their potentials. Socialism, even if some allowances for incentive are made, seeks to stifle that element of human nature by forcing everyone to live at about the same level. For that reason, in a socialist society, the people who want more out of life would simply take it by committing crime, because there would be no legitimate avenue to channel and harvest their desires for betterness.
Why should "workers in the advanced nations go to the aid of those in the less advanced, bringing their standard of living up to parity with ours" if they had no incentive to? Why would a Bill Gates come along and revolutionize the way the world does business if he didn't have the opportunity to reap incredible personal benefits from it? Why would anyone invest the money to starting a business if there was a cap on how much they could derive from it?
You can't force people in a box. Free them.
There's a reason why nations like the United States and Japan have been the main technological innovators and other nations aren't. Similarly, there's a reason why the Soviets never made it to the moon.
Oh wait, never mind, you're probably going to tell me that the moon landing was staged by the capitalist ruling elite.
TB4p
I made a flippant and facetious response to this once before, as I had neither the time nor the patience for a serious examination of it. Now I have the time, and I've found I can pretty much tear the whole thing apart by just analyzing the last sentence:REDWAVE said:
Poverty is not "the main cause of crime." There are many, many crimes, like, say, rape, in which money is not a motivating factor. Poverty can be a contributing cause to some crimes, but it's ludicrous to say that poverty is the sole reason for crime. The facts bear that out. As a nation, we were far more destitute during the Great Depression than we are now. Yet our crime rate is much higher than then. The poorest area in the U.S., at least last I saw, was Shannon County, South Dakota, not South Central L.A. or the South Side of Chicago. Greedy CEO's who are already filthy fucking rich have taken even more money at the expense of the workers. Osama bin Laden is incredibly wealthy, yet he is responsible for the most heinous terrorist act in history. No, the main cause of crime is greed and power, and the criminal's will to cast aside moral dictates to acquire more.REDWAVE said:
We must draw an important distinction between self-interest and selfishness. Wanting to better oneself and make more money to lead a better life or provide better lives for one's family is a perfectly acceptable goal. It's not being greedy.
Capitalism, when properly practiced, allows for people to maximize their potentials. Socialism, even if some allowances for incentive are made, seeks to stifle that element of human nature by forcing everyone to live at about the same level. For that reason, in a socialist society, the people who want more out of life would simply take it by committing crime, because there would be no legitimate avenue to channel and harvest their desires for betterness.
Why should "workers in the advanced nations go to the aid of those in the less advanced, bringing their standard of living up to parity with ours" if they had no incentive to? Why would a Bill Gates come along and revolutionize the way the world does business if he didn't have the opportunity to reap incredible personal benefits from it? Why would anyone invest the money to starting a business if there was a cap on how much they could derive from it?
You can't force people in a box. Free them.
There's a reason why nations like the United States and Japan have been the main technological innovators and other nations aren't. Similarly, there's a reason why the Soviets never made it to the moon.
Oh wait, never mind, you're probably going to tell me that the moon landing was staged by the capitalist ruling elite.
TB4p
Last edited:
Lost Cause
It's a wrap!
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What's the revolution timetable?...
I want to make sure these weapons of mine won't go to waste!
Redweave, you try and distance yourself from the badguys in Communism, but the theory of your thread is the same manifesto of the late '17 & 20's! The "justice" you mentioned was dealt to the "enemy" of the people in the years following the revolution by murder and torture. The only prerequisite is that you be a party member!
I see that hate/envy in the "new" future murders of humanity. (New soles on old shoes)
http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/DBG.TAB1.2.GIF
I want to make sure these weapons of mine won't go to waste!
Redweave, you try and distance yourself from the badguys in Communism, but the theory of your thread is the same manifesto of the late '17 & 20's! The "justice" you mentioned was dealt to the "enemy" of the people in the years following the revolution by murder and torture. The only prerequisite is that you be a party member!
I see that hate/envy in the "new" future murders of humanity. (New soles on old shoes)
http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/DBG.TAB1.2.GIF
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