The everything about rape topic.

[Netzach]

I only post in the BDSM forum because there's no special forum for people like me and Jmo.

I feel so betrayed on the turning a girl into a sexual device wherein you can crush other men front.

 

[rosco rathbone]

I feel so betrayed on the turning a girl into a sexual device wherein you can crush other men front.

Wait, is that BDSM ?

 

[Netzach]

Wait, is that BDSM ?

It's not? Oh well.

 

[rosco rathbone]

I totally get that, and I'm not giving you grief. I understand the parallels. Just pointing out the double standard on the part of those I aimed my previous post at.





ETA: And, to be fair, there are four black this, white that, race threads. So apparently BDSM is RACE RAPE RACE RAPE RACE RAPE RACE...

Heh. Rapeplay and raceplay....two of my faves.

so ashamed....kicks can

 

[Shankara20]

Again, the rapist is the one without functioning behavioral checks.

Is it not interesting when and how selective "without functioning behavioral checks" works?

rape in daytime in a public place with people around? functioning behavioral checked!
rape a male? functioning behavioral checked!
rape a female with an escort? functioning behavioral checked!
rape a female who looks attractive and "do-able"? functioning behavioral un-checked!

 

[Shankara20]

So I go to a BDSM play party. I trust the folks that host the party. I'm feeling very submissive and sexual, more so then most other nights. My Dom knows my boundaries and my safewords. We know each other and trust each other. Dom goes to someone we have played with before and works out a forced sex scene with me as the object. Scene takes place - including having fluid boundaries respected. I'm "take" orally and anally several times. I'm bruised and ravished - and very happy when I'm finely taken home = not raped!

I'm in a bar having some drinks talking politely to someone I've noticed in the bar on other nights. I become over intoxicated. I'm taken to his house and fucked orally and anally several times without being asked. No condom was used. I'm bruised. I wake up feeling unclean, violated, and frightened. I make my way home alone = raped!

To me the difference is clear. What have I missed here?

 

[JMohegan]

Is it not interesting when and how selective "without functioning behavioral checks" works?

rape in daytime in a public place with people around? functioning behavioral checked!
rape a male? functioning behavioral checked!
rape a female with an escort? functioning behavioral checked!
rape a female who looks attractive and "do-able"? functioning behavioral un-checked!

Fear of punishment is only part of it, as I said.

A healthy, functioning superego is the most effective check.

 

[nh23]

You know what I don't get - why the people that get on beastiality/pedophilia/incest threads and go on about how those topics aren't BDSM aren't on these threads talking about how rape is not BDSM. The primary argument is that bestiality and pedophilia aren't BDSM because consent is not involved.

...

Last time I checked, rape was non-consensual

But enough people are so turned on by the idea that they don't care. So I'll do it.

Rape is not BDSM.

I would make a comment on how lovely it is to hit the Talk forum and see three rape threads up at the same time, and know that someone visiting the board for the first time is going to see RAPE RAPE RAPE. Wow, what an impression. But, eh, what do I know? Seems like everybody and their brother is made so moist by the idea that it must be BDSM by default, no? Or are we quietly telling the world and ourselves that we ladle the kinky trappings on to cover up the idea that all we want is RAPE RAPE RAPE?

This thread is primarily aimed at the people that go on about how bestiality, pedophilia, etc are not BDSM. I'm not defending those threads or concepts, as I find them abhorrent, but the same reason I find them abhorrent is just as applicable here.

 

[JMohegan]

So I go to a BDSM play party. I trust the folks that host the party. I'm feeling very submissive and sexual, more so then most other nights. My Dom knows my boundaries and my safewords. We know each other and trust each other. Dom goes to someone we have played with before and works out a forced sex scene with me as the object. Scene takes place - including having fluid boundaries respected. I'm "take" orally and anally several times. I'm bruised and ravished - and very happy when I'm finely taken home = not raped!

I'm in a bar having some drinks talking politely to someone I've noticed in the bar on other nights. I become over intoxicated. I'm taken to his house and fucked orally and anally several times without being asked. No condom was used. I'm bruised. I wake up feeling unclean, violated, and frightened. I make my way home alone = raped!

To me the difference is clear. What have I missed here?

The difference between your two examples seems clear indeed.

Bridgeburner is right about the slippery fish, though. What do you think of the following?

Male and female decide to start calling themselves Master and slave. Female says: "Do whatever you want to me! Use me like your car or ultimate fucktoy! No matter what I say, don't let it restrain your behavior! I have no safeword! Yay for stylized BDSM!"

Six months later, she's all tied up and he's doing whatever he wants to do, and she changes her mind. Really, really, REALLY, honest to god, wants him to stop - and says so, loud and clear. But he doesn't. Afterwards, she feels unclean, violated, frightened.

What say you, Shank? That would be rape per the law, right? Would it also be rape per your personal ethical standards?

 

[Netzach]

The difference between your two examples seems clear indeed.

Bridgeburner is right about the slippery fish, though. What do you think of the following?

Male and female decide to start calling themselves Master and slave. Female says: "Do whatever you want to me! Use me like your car or ultimate fucktoy! No matter what I say, don't let it restrain your behavior! I have no safeword! Yay for stylized BDSM!"

Six months later, she's all tied up and he's doing whatever he wants to do, and she changes her mind. Really, really, REALLY, honest to god, wants him to stop - and says so, loud and clear. But he doesn't. Afterwards, she feels unclean, violated, frightened.

What say you, Shank? That would be rape per the law, right? Would it also be rape per your personal ethical standards?

It doesn't matter one freaking iota what he thinks it is. If *she* feels that way, he'd better be ready to deal with it and do the clean up.
Or else the legal ramifications may become his problem swiftly. Frankly, he's fucked up and the horse is out, and closing the barn door by saying "you promised me" is positively laughable.

I'm really a pragmatist at heart. It's not fluffy bunnies and niceness that make me say this, but the long lost art of enlightened self interest.

People regularly say they'll do anything for the other, romantic vanillas included. If you're going to assume that's a blanket statement without delving into specifics, you are an idiot. If you take the time to explain exactly what that could entail and what that means, at length, then you create a foundation where the contract informs everything you do.

 

[Netzach]

Additionally, if he's bothered to do his freaking job as Master of the universe, this simply will not happen. You can't enjoy those kinds of games with someone who has not internalized the position, not without more risk than any sane person would want.

A person who has internalized "there's no rape between us" may flash back in a scene or something, but won't come out of it hating his/her D and languishing in a state of "unclean and miserable". They simply won't. They'll mentally ping right back to the construct the relationship is rooted in.

 

[nh23]

The difference between your two examples seems clear indeed.

Bridgeburner is right about the slippery fish, though. What do you think of the following?

Male and female decide to start calling themselves Master and slave. Female says: "Do whatever you want to me! Use me like your car or ultimate fucktoy! No matter what I say, don't let it restrain your behavior! I have no safeword! Yay for stylized BDSM!"

Six months later, she's all tied up and he's doing whatever he wants to do, and she changes her mind. Really, really, REALLY, honest to god, wants him to stop - and says so, loud and clear. But he doesn't. Afterwards, she feels unclean, violated, frightened.

What say you, Shank? That would be rape per the law, right? Would it also be rape per your personal ethical standards?

I say it's not rape. Master has blanket consent. It was discussed before we got into M/s

I had a situation similar to this with a previous Dom. It wasn't a M/s dynamic, but he'd never heard me say no. It was dry anal sex. I said no and meant no. It felt like he was tearing me apart in a very bad way. When it was all said and done, I didn't think rape. I thought we need to discuss how he can decipher when I really mean no.

Additionally, if he's bothered to do his freaking job as Master of the universe, this simply will not happen. You can't enjoy those kinds of games with someone who has not internalized the position, not without more risk than any sane person would want.

A person who has internalized "there's no rape between us" may flash back in a scene or something, but won't come out of it hating his/her D and languishing in a state of "unclean and miserable". They simply won't. They'll mentally ping right back to the construct the relationship is rooted in.

Yep

 

[Shankara20]

The difference between your two examples seems clear indeed.

Bridgeburner is right about the slippery fish, though. What do you think of the following?

Male and female decide to start calling themselves Master and slave. Female says: "Do whatever you want to me! Use me like your car or ultimate fucktoy! No matter what I say, don't let it restrain your behavior! I have no safeword! Yay for stylized BDSM!"

Six months later, she's all tied up and he's doing whatever he wants to do, and she changes her mind. Really, really, REALLY, honest to god, wants him to stop - and says so, loud and clear. But he doesn't. Afterwards, she feels unclean, violated, frightened.

What say you, Shank? That would be rape per the law, right? Would it also be rape per your personal ethical standards?

Rape laws are state by state. That said I expect it would be difficult to move a rape charge forward under these circumstances - even more difficult to seat a jury that would convict.

Would it be rape by my standards? Not so much as he was not a predictor. Would I want to see anyone go to jail? No, not at all. But I can fully understand that she could feel raped, and he would not feel like a rapist. So, for this couple, what's next? Her experience can be validated and worked through as can his "WTF?" experience. Hopefully they can establish a new relationship working with new information about who they are now, not who they were six months ago.

To add one more thing, a person can feel raped and have all the long term ramification that can follow a rape, and the act does not rise to the legal threshold of rape. My interest is in how people react to the event much more then who the DA states is in the clear. The law may give him a pass while she is emotionally destroyed. Who might society need to support in 20 years because of a drug addiction?

 

[JMohegan]

It doesn't matter one freaking iota what he thinks it is. If *she* feels that way, he'd better be ready to deal with it and do the clean up.
Or else the legal ramifications may become his problem swiftly. Frankly, he's fucked up and the horse is out, and closing the barn door by saying "you promised me" is positively laughable.

I'm really a pragmatist at heart. It's not fluffy bunnies and niceness that make me say this, but the long lost art of enlightened self interest.

This is true for any sexual encounter, of any flavor.

Since no guy is a mind reader, and no guy can guarantee how she'll feel about whatever transpires after it's all over, rape/no rape becomes a guessing game for the male, when defined by this standard.

And why, if there's gonna be a combination of DNA and bruising, chafing, restraints, or any sign of force, he is trusting that female with his personal freedom. No matter what she agreed to ahead of time, and regardless of whether the agreement was made 30 seconds prior or 6 months ago.

I am a pragmatist too.

 

[Homburg]

I've asked that myself repeatedly. Why the "bdsm in film" thread is little more than "this had a rape scene in it." I never got good answers, so I figure I'd just learn to live with these threads.

I tried really hard to maintain that sort of zen acceptance here. The double standard just exceeded my ability to tolerate hypocrisy.

And I say that as a big, fat, stinky hypocrite myself, so my hypocrisy tolerance is pretty substantial.

But I've often pointed out that women rate lower than animals on a rights and outrage scale, and that if you shift the exact attitudes and edges of how we deal with gender identity onto race or ethnopolitik in the BDSM world it's suddenly EDGE, HOLY SHIT WOW.

Yeah, that's a slap in the face epiphany there. Bestiality is so horribible because the poor widdle fuzzycute animals can't consent. Women not consenting to sexing? Pfft, hawt.

That hurts my brain. I'm feeling my internal feminist pretty strongly right now. (It's okay, my internal feminist consented to the feeling)

It's part of why I feel like I'm in outer space when you put me in a room with M/f D/s people a lot of the time. I don't *understand* that kind of relationship to power half the time.

Shit, I do it, and I don't *get* what other people do in it half the time either.

But I'm in a rel. with a top who's just not wired that way. I'm not wired that way myself. Rape rates less erotic for me than sports injury, and about as much as auto accident. It's an unfortunate thing that happens to people, it has nothing to do with consensual hard dicking and rough sex is not the be all and freaking end all of how T makes me feel, in fact it plays about no part in it.

Spot on. Though, admittedly, some people are turned on by sports injuries, and some by car crashes. Hell, there was a movie about the latter with Sharon Stone, wasn't there?

--

Heh. Rapeplay and raceplay....two of my faves.

so ashamed....kicks can

*snort*

--

Additionally, if he's bothered to do his freaking job as Master of the universe, this simply will not happen. You can't enjoy those kinds of games with someone who has not internalized the position, not without more risk than any sane person would want.

A person who has internalized "there's no rape between us" may flash back in a scene or something, but won't come out of it hating his/her D and languishing in a state of "unclean and miserable". They simply won't. They'll mentally ping right back to the construct the relationship is rooted in.

This is wisdom, pure and simple. This is the only defense we have in these situations. I do things that will SO get my ass tossed in jail, and the only chance I have of avoiding that jail cell is constructing the relationship in a way that prevents the mindset that predicates a 911 call.

 

[JMohegan]

Rape laws are state by state. That said I expect it would be difficult to move a rape charge forward under these circumstances - even more difficult to seat a jury that would convict.

Would it be rape by my standards? Not so much as he was not a predictor. Would I want to see anyone go to jail? No, not at all. But I can fully understand that she could feel raped, and he would not feel like a rapist. So, for this couple, what's next? Her experience can be validated and worked through as can his "WTF?" experience. Hopefully they can establish a new relationship working with new information about who they are now, not who they were six months ago.

To add one more thing, a person can feel raped and have all the long term ramification that can follow a rape, and the act does not rise to the legal threshold of rape. My interest is in how people react to the event much more then who the DA states is in the clear. The law may give him a pass while she is emotionally destroyed. Who might society need to support in 20 years because of a drug addiction?

I had the impression, from your prior post, that you saw the line between rape and not rape as crystal clear. In this post, you seem to acknowledge its fuzzy nature.

 

[nh23]

I tried really hard to maintain that sort of zen acceptance here. The double standard just exceeded my ability to tolerate hypocrisy.

And I say that as a big, fat, stinky hypocrite myself, so my hypocrisy tolerance is pretty substantial.

I'm a big fat hypocrite. While I don't understand rape in r/l. Been there, done that. I do get aroused by rape scenes in movies, or stories about rape. I also have a huge violence fetish. One of the movies that turns me on the most. Natural Born Killers. Now that's horrible. I think I have a really twisted mind.

 

[Netzach]

I'm a big fat hypocrite. While I don't understand rape in r/l. Been there, done that. I do get aroused by rape scenes in movies, or stories about rape. I also have a huge violence fetish. One of the movies that turns me on the most. Natural Born Killers. Now that's horrible. I think I have a really twisted mind.

Threat + OMG we're trapped! = hot.

 

[JMohegan]

Additionally, if he's bothered to do his freaking job as Master of the universe, this simply will not happen. You can't enjoy those kinds of games with someone who has not internalized the position, not without more risk than any sane person would want.

A person who has internalized "there's no rape between us" may flash back in a scene or something, but won't come out of it hating his/her D and languishing in a state of "unclean and miserable". They simply won't. They'll mentally ping right back to the construct the relationship is rooted in.

And yet, this Board is filled with examples from s-types who say: "My old dom abused me," or "My prior master made me feel terrible about myself, so I finally left."

 

[nh23]

And yet, this Board is filled with examples from s-types who say: "My old dom abused me," or "My prior master made me feel terrible about myself, so I finally left."

Yeah, and there are those of us who don't. See my earlier post.

 

[Netzach]

I have a number of patently problematic fantasies and thoughts and desires, as a perfectly average ape-id-human-thing.

My interest in incorporating them into my sex life usually rates low. I know for most people it rates higher, and that's fine.

But if you ask me not any ol' rape in a movie is hot. Just like not any 'ol kiss in a movie is sexy. Some are hot some are offputting some are just ho hum.

 

[nh23]

Threat + OMG we're trapped! = hot.

Yep, however that's not what turns me on about Natural Born Killers. I think I'll just keep that to myself.

 

[Netzach]

And yet, this Board is filled with examples from s-types who say: "My old dom abused me," or "My prior master made me feel terrible about myself, so I finally left."

This doesn't disprove what I'm saying.

The job was not being done, the belief system had rifts in it that were not addressed.

 

[rosco rathbone]

Jmo's example is rape. Her prior blanket non-consent means nothing.

"But Judge!..."

 

[JMohegan]

This doesn't disprove what I'm saying.

The job was not being done, the belief system had rifts in it that were not addressed.

Of course it doesn't disprove your point.

I'm just pointing out that consent issues can be (and often are) fuzzy in the kinky world, just as they can be (and often are) fuzzy in the non-kinky world.

The idea that rape has nothing to do with BDSM is an idea that I find silly. If rape = fucking without consent, and consent is a fuzzy issue for interactions of all flavors, it seems to me that the topic of rape is relevant on the BDSM, GLBT, GB, and any other sexual discussion board.