The everything about rape topic.

[bridgeburner]

We got into all this in the last rape thread ...

Yeah, I know, and it was recent so I did hestitate to bring it up again, but then I figured, "What the hell?"

 

[nh23]

I wholeheartedly agree. It takes a certain kind of narcissism to rape. A certain disregard for the wishes of others and a willingness to override those wishes with force, if necessary, in order to achieve one's own ends.

*nods* We agree then. I think I spoke too hastily and didn't elaborate earlier. So yeah it does involve sex, but not just sex. It's not just about sex. There is some motivation other than sex. Right?

 

[bridgeburner]

In my case neither happened. It was all shoved under the rug. So I can't be subjective about it.

Do you have any thoughts on the matter, though? However subjective they may be, you're still entitled to your opinion and I would be interested to hear it.

I find it impossible to believe the man who abused me did it just because it was a warm hole.

I don't think anyone is suggesting that. I'm certainly not. What I am saying is that rapists choose to abuse in a specifically sexual manner --- rather than through, say, purely psychological abuse or non-sexual physical abuse. There are all kinds of ways to exert power over those who don't wish it and most of them don't involve interfering with their sexual organs.

 

[bridgeburner]

*nods* We agree then. I think I spoke too hastily and didn't elaborate earlier. So yeah it does involve sex, but not just sex. It's not just about sex. There is some motivation other than sex. Right?

Yes. It involves either the desire for or the disregard of lack of consent.

Whatever the underlying drive -- power, revenge, sadism -- what is necessary is violating that "No." Honestly, I'm not that interested in WHY people rape. It doesn't matter to me in the long run. There is never any excuse for forcing sexual contact on a person who doesn't wish it so the why sort of ceases to matter in any but the most academic sense.

 

[nh23]

Do you have any thoughts on the matter, though? However subjective they may be, you're still entitled to your opinion and I would be interested to hear it.

I think that way too many victims don't seek any kind of emotional help. Myself included. What help is there is intimidating. Kerion was talking to me in another thread about a different kind of therapy. She hasn't given me the details yet, so I can't say one way or another if it is better than what is offered now, but I think there is a need for something better.

As far as rapists. I can only speak for what I know about people who abuse children. There are a good portion of them who never get caught.
# Evidence that a child has been sexually abused is not always obvious, and many children do not report that they have been abused.
# Over 30% of victims never disclose the experience to ANYONE.
# Young victims may not recognize their victimization as sexual abuse.
# Almost 80% initially deny abuse or are tentative in disclosing. Of those who do disclose, approximately 75% disclose accidentally. Additionally, of those who do disclose, more than 20% eventually recant even though the abuse occurred.
# Fabricated sexual abuse reports constitute only 1% to 4% of all reported cases. Of these reports, 75% are falsely reported by adults and 25% are reported by children. Children only fabricate ½% of the time

As far as the one's we know about. This may not be a popular opinion but I think that pedophiles should get life sentences. I don't think they can be rehabilitated and I think it's risking more children to put them back out on the streets.

Men who rape adult women. I would imagine that depends more on the circumstances. I don't think that an 18 year old boy who is having sex with a 16 year old girl who is willing should have the same punishment as a man who violently rapes women. I don't know the statistics on the rehabilitation rates of rapists.

I don't think anyone is suggesting that. I'm certainly not. What I am saying is that rapists choose to abuse in a specifically sexual manner --- rather than through, say, purely psychological abuse or non-sexual physical abuse. There are all kinds of ways to exert power over those who don't wish it and most of them don't involve interfering with their sexual organs.

*nods*

 

[samantha4daddy]

The line between fantasy and cruelty

Rape fantasy's sure I have them, have done rape roleplay. It is nothing, nothing like actually being abused. There isn't even a comparison.

You're right, but there is also, on a deeper level, an ability to recreate something that was in actuality horrific. I was also abused as a child, and I engage in incest play.

My mother would think it was disgusting (very conservative and religious), but for me it's actually kind of therapeutic. I know for instance, that the man I'm with would be a much better father than the one I had. I know that the man I'm with will never betray me, never break our trust or actually force me.

But actual rape? Actual child abuse? Even if you are acting out the exact same scenarios with an adult partner, you are choosing to do so. You can always walk away. A child can't do that. I don't have any experience as an adult, but I can tell you that abuse fucks a kid up in so many ways that a lifetime of therapy wouldn't fix them all.

 

[ZRT]

*shrugs* ok It doesn't make sense to me that way. If it's just about friction and an orifice why not just get a hooker.

Why pay for what you can easily take? That's one basic motivator right there.

Bridgeburner was right that advocacy led to oversimplification.

There are a lot of people in this world for whom simply taking what they want is a perfectly legitimate expression of their existence.

Familial molestation and the like is a different matter altogether, though.

 

[Shankara20]

if rape is about power and not about sex, then, like Bridgeburner said, why all the fucking? Why not just beat some chick up? There are so many other ways to show power than sex. Sure, power often plays into the motivations, but I'm pretty sure that a warm hole plays into the motivations as well.

There is a sexual component to the act of rape, sure, but rape is not about having sex. Rape it is about using some sort of force to have sex - force as in "taking" instead of "asking" or "convincing". The use of power and some sort of control is what makes the sex act wrong = rape is about some type of taking. Robbing a liquor store is not about having a drink, is it?

 

[Kajira Callista]

Taking or controlling?
ETA I don't think a rapist gives a shit about what they are taking.

 

[rumara]

Here's a question I don't think I've ever seen asked: When dealing with rape are we more concerned with punishing offenders or healing victims? Do you think that our focus is correct?

i think currently the trend is to make noise about punishing offenders while sweeping the victims under the rug. i think rape embarrasses and confuses most people, including the victims. it has always seemed to me that people in the United States have an unfortunate sense of shame about anything to do with sex (and i retract my earlier statement that rape has nothing to do with sex), and i think that puritan viewpoint extends to rape. i have many close girlfriends, and all but two have been raped. none of them reported it. i think shame had a lot to do with it, which is so, so sad. if people had a healthier attitude toward sex in general, would we have as many rapists?

ideally we would concentrate on both punishing (but does punishment help any, or does it just isolate them from the general public for a couple of years? is rehabilitation even possible?) offenders and healing victims. i don't think we do either very well. and would sex education (and i don't mean health classes taught by football coaches) be of any help in prevention?

 

[Shankara20]

Taking or controlling?

both - I was just trying to expand the "power and control" language somewhat.

 

[ChinaBandit]

In my opinion

rape sucks...There is nothing right about it.

 

[Netzach]

As far as I can tell, tiger fucking is more like dancing in the end zone. Celebration after he's bested the other males.

Lions and closely-packed-in Bengal Tigers have fights.

Siberian Tigers have so much range it's like OMG, another tiger, let's fuck because this is probably it for the year.

Sounds rather human like, actually.

 

[satindesire]

It's funny how cats mate.

They seriously don't care where it is, as long as that other cat is the opposite gender, they're game anytime, anyplace.

 

[DormantEvil]

Rape is about power, but involves forced sex because of the emotional damage that causes compared to a basic beating. But there can be no rape without forced sex so sex is a big part of it. The sexual need to have power over someone non-consenting.

It's about power sure, but you cannot say it isn't also about the sex.

I agree with parts of what everyone has said.

But there is also that condition that the person committing rape needs fulfilled, whatever condition or need that is. I don't know the exact thing. And going to a hooker and paying for sex isn't going to fulfill that. So it can't only be because someone is horny, because that's probably a majority of people on a Friday and Saturday night that walk around the streets having a good time, and not all if any, of those people will be rapists.

I wonder if a rapist has ever given him input on the desires and needs that couldn't be fulfilled through consensual sex? That would help to define why one commits rape.

 

[PertPerth]

Reading this thread got me thinking - is rape more likely to be premeditated, or spontaneous? According to statistics (from a google search) 70% of the victoms are known by their attackers, and are planned attacks.
(Having said that, I'm not sure how much I trust the site which also says that "No woman fantasizes about being raped" )

 

[Shankara20]

(Having said that, I'm not sure how much I trust the site which also says that "No woman fantasizes about being raped" )

There is a bit or reluctance for some working to reduce violence against women to accept some of the kinks we play with in the BDSM world. Part of the problem is the language we use to talk about our kinks, they have very different meanings in the vanilla/legal/medical world.

 

[DormantEvil]

I personally have a fantasy of a powerful man using me as he wishes, but it's not something I see as enjoying if that actually happened in real life.

I see the distinct line, but many who do not understand don't see it that way.

In real life I'm quite the opposite to my imagination, I love being in control, yet wouldn't commit rape just because of that.

 

[JMohegan]

Rape is about power, but involves forced sex because of the emotional damage that causes compared to a basic beating. But there can be no rape without forced sex so sex is a big part of it. The sexual need to have power over someone non-consenting.

It's about power sure, but you cannot say it isn't also about the sex.

I agree with parts of what everyone has said.

But there is also that condition that the person committing rape needs fulfilled, whatever condition or need that is. I don't know the exact thing. And going to a hooker and paying for sex isn't going to fulfill that. So it can't only be because someone is horny, because that's probably a majority of people on a Friday and Saturday night that walk around the streets having a good time, and not all if any, of those people will be rapists.

I wonder if a rapist has ever given him input on the desires and needs that couldn't be fulfilled through consensual sex? That would help to define why one commits rape.

No, an extra "condition" is not necessarily a requisite element of the urge to rape. The female is there, and she's hot, and that's reason enough to want to fuck her - with or without her consent.

It's not the absence of an extra "condition," but rather the presence of functioning behavioral checks that keep the average horny guy from raping. He doesn't want a guilty conscience, and he doesn't want to be punished for the crime.

However, some guys do find certain conditions, or aspects of rape appealing. As has been said multiple times on this thread, motivations vary. Some (such as myself) find fear and struggling extremely arousing. The chase, the hunt, the conquest - all exceedingly hot.

Of course, having that additional motivation doesn't mean one will actually rape. Again, the rapist is the one without functioning behavioral checks.

 

[rosco rathbone]

Rape is arousing to rapists. It's tautologous.

 

[JMohegan]

Rape is arousing to rapists. It's tautologous.

*opens dictionary*

Haha - true!

 

[Homburg]

You know what I don't get - why the people that get on beastiality/pedophilia/incest threads and go on about how those topics aren't BDSM aren't on these threads talking about how rape is not BDSM. The primary argument is that bestiality and pedophilia aren't BDSM because consent is not involved.

...

Last time I checked, rape was non-consensual

But enough people are so turned on by the idea that they don't care. So I'll do it.

Rape is not BDSM.

I would make a comment on how lovely it is to hit the Talk forum and see three rape threads up at the same time, and know that someone visiting the board for the first time is going to see RAPE RAPE RAPE. Wow, what an impression. But, eh, what do I know? Seems like everybody and their brother is made so moist by the idea that it must be BDSM by default, no? Or are we quietly telling the world and ourselves that we ladle the kinky trappings on to cover up the idea that all we want is RAPE RAPE RAPE?

This thread is primarily aimed at the people that go on about how bestiality, pedophilia, etc are not BDSM. I'm not defending those threads or concepts, as I find them abhorrent, but the same reason I find them abhorrent is just as applicable here.

 

[rosco rathbone]

You know what I don't get - why the people that get on beastiality/pedophilia/incest threads and go on about how those topics aren't BDSM aren't on these threads talking about how rape is not BDSM. The primary argument is that bestiality and pedophilia aren't BDSM because consent is not involved.

...

Last time I checked, rape was non-consensual

But enough people are so turned on by the idea that they don't care. So I'll do it.

Rape is not BDSM.

I would make a comment on how lovely it is to hit the Talk forum and see three rape threads up at the same time, and know that someone visiting the board for the first time is going to see RAPE RAPE RAPE. Wow, what an impression. But, eh, what do I know? Seems like everybody and their brother is made so moist by the idea that it must be BDSM by default, no? Or are we quietly telling the world and ourselves that we ladle the kinky trappings on to cover up the idea that all we want is RAPE RAPE RAPE?

This thread is primarily aimed at the people that go on about how bestiality, pedophilia, etc are not BDSM. I'm not defending those threads or concepts, as I find them abhorrent, but the same reason I find them abhorrent is just as applicable here.

I only post in the BDSM forum because there's no special forum for people like me and Jmo.

 

[Homburg]

I only post in the BDSM forum because there's no special forum for people like me and Jmo.

I totally get that, and I'm not giving you grief. I understand the parallels. Just pointing out the double standard on the part of those I aimed my previous post at.





ETA: And, to be fair, there are four black this, white that, race threads. So apparently BDSM is RACE RAPE RACE RAPE RACE RAPE RACE...

 

[Netzach]

You know what I don't get - why the people that get on beastiality/pedophilia/incest threads and go on about how those topics aren't BDSM aren't on these threads talking about how rape is not BDSM. The primary argument is that bestiality and pedophilia aren't BDSM because consent is not involved.

...

Last time I checked, rape was non-consensual

But enough people are so turned on by the idea that they don't care. So I'll do it.

Rape is not BDSM.

I would make a comment on how lovely it is to hit the Talk forum and see three rape threads up at the same time, and know that someone visiting the board for the first time is going to see RAPE RAPE RAPE. Wow, what an impression. But, eh, what do I know? Seems like everybody and their brother is made so moist by the idea that it must be BDSM by default, no? Or are we quietly telling the world and ourselves that we ladle the kinky trappings on to cover up the idea that all we want is RAPE RAPE RAPE?

This thread is primarily aimed at the people that go on about how bestiality, pedophilia, etc are not BDSM. I'm not defending those threads or concepts, as I find them abhorrent, but the same reason I find them abhorrent is just as applicable here.

I've asked that myself repeatedly. Why the "bdsm in film" thread is little more than "this had a rape scene in it." I never got good answers, so I figure I'd just learn to live with these threads.

But I've often pointed out that women rate lower than animals on a rights and outrage scale, and that if you shift the exact attitudes and edges of how we deal with gender identity onto race or ethnopolitik in the BDSM world it's suddenly EDGE, HOLY SHIT WOW.

No one's ever questioned that calling me a slut is titillating but calling me a kike is beyond the fucking pale. Or that similar levels of trust might need to be in play.

It's part of why I feel like I'm in outer space when you put me in a room with M/f D/s people a lot of the time. I don't *understand* that kind of relationship to power half the time.

But I'm in a rel. with a top who's just not wired that way. I'm not wired that way myself. Rape rates less erotic for me than sports injury, and about as much as auto accident. It's an unfortunate thing that happens to people, it has nothing to do with consensual hard dicking and rough sex is not the be all and freaking end all of how T makes me feel, in fact it plays about no part in it.

Now, Coercion? Persuasion? I'm there. "No no no no no yes yes yes yes" sure thing.