The end of Democracy?

Chobham

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Trump is NOT the end of democracy, but the response to Trump by various groups/individuals very well might be.

The United States does NOT have national elections, we have 50 separate state elections that are required to operate within certain, and limited, constitutional constraints. That being the case there is a legal argument that each state can determine who may, or may not, appear on the ballot(s). This is a legal theory that has never been truly tested in deference to allowing the people to make the final decision. The legal theory of the state electoral supremacy is in full bloom this election season. So let's explore this a little further.

IF any state, by whatever means, can determine who may or may not be on the ballots then any state can and then what is the purpose of having an election at all? Every election will be a "Hobson's Choice" from the standpoint of the citizen. It the state can exert that power then what is to stop them from doing so with statewide or local elections? The end result is that every individual state, depending on who's currently in power, can create a situation where only their particular group will ever be in power.

While the notion of the state making those determinations may sound seductive if your particular group is in power, is that what you really want? What is your alternative if the group you currently support no longer represents what you believe? Your electoral choice is reduced to a variation of what already exists. Iran, among other nations, is a good example of that consequence. Back to Hobson's Choice.

The question is ultimately going to end up in the Supreme Court and it's a thorny question indeed. If they decide that the states do NOT have that power then we have taken one more step towards nationalized elections. On the other hand to decide otherwise is to provide the various states the power to achieve exactly what I've discussed in the previous paragraphs. Neither decision is a particularly good decision.
 
45 was the first President in history to refuse the true peaceful transition of power.

If he does it again, that would be a const crisis.

I don't think he's a threat to democracy, though he certainly is an authoritarian, which is not good for the country
 
45 was the first President in history to refuse the true peaceful transition of power.

If he does it again, that would be a const crisis.

I don't think he's a threat to democracy, though he certainly is an authoritarian, which is not good for the country
Way to NOT address the issue. :rolleyes:
 
“This is a legal theory that has never been truly tested…”

Cool! Now do fake electors.
 
Way to NOT address the issue. :rolleyes:
I didn't address your issue...I expressed.mu perspective on your thread.

I've already expressed my opinion of his not being on the ballot in a few states currently. SCOTUS will put him back on.
 
I didn't address your issue...I expressed.mu perspective on your thread.

I've already expressed my opinion of his not being on the ballot in a few states currently. SCOTUS will put him back on.
And my argument is that that too is problematic. The can of worms is open now and I don't believe without reservation that SCOTUS is going to rule so.
 
Trump is NOT the end of democracy, but the response to Trump by various groups/individuals very well might be.

The United States does NOT have national elections, we have 50 separate state elections that are required to operate within certain, and limited, constitutional constraints. That being the case there is a legal argument that each state can determine who may, or may not, appear on the ballot(s). This is a legal theory that has never been truly tested in deference to allowing the people to make the final decision. The legal theory of the state electoral supremacy is in full bloom this election season. So let's explore this a little further.

IF any state, by whatever means, can determine who may or may not be on the ballots then any state can and then what is the purpose of having an election at all? Every election will be a "Hobson's Choice" from the standpoint of the citizen. It the state can exert that power then what is to stop them from doing so with statewide or local elections? The end result is that every individual state, depending on who's currently in power, can create a situation where only their particular group will ever be in power.

While the notion of the state making those determinations may sound seductive if your particular group is in power, is that what you really want? What is your alternative if the group you currently support no longer represents what you believe? Your electoral choice is reduced to a variation of what already exists. Iran, among other nations, is a good example of that consequence. Back to Hobson's Choice.

The question is ultimately going to end up in the Supreme Court and it's a thorny question indeed. If they decide that the states do NOT have that power then we have taken one more step towards nationalized elections. On the other hand to decide otherwise is to provide the various states the power to achieve exactly what I've discussed in the previous paragraphs. Neither decision is a particularly good decision.
You do realize the States haven't always chosen their electors by popular vote, yes?
 
And my argument is that that too is problematic. The can of worms is open now and I don't believe without reservation that SCOTUS is going to rule so.
They will.

I think Colorado made it difficult them to do so, but in the end it will be about the best interest of voters.....they'll kick the can down the road.

Might end up being messy in December
 
I do think trump is an insurrectionist. Believe he should be barred. But I’m also willing and anxiously await kicking his ass at the ballots for yet a third time as well.
 
The United States does NOT have national elections, we have 50 separate state elections that are required to operate within certain, and limited, constitutional constraints. That being the case there is a legal argument that each state can determine who may, or may not, appear on the ballot(s).

Constitutional requirements for presidential candidates | USAGov

Dec 11, 2023 The U.S. Constitution states that the president must: Be a natural-born citizen of the United States Be at least 35 years old Have been a resident of the United States for 14 years Anyone who meets these requirements can declare their candidacy for president.

Qualifications for the Presidency | Constitution Annotated | Congress ...

The Qualifications Clause set forth in Article II, Section 1, Clause 5 requires the President to be a natural-born citizen, at least thirty-five years of age, and a resident of the United States for at least fourteen years.


No state can 'elect' any person who does meet those basic requirements.

Similarly, no state can 'elect' any person disqualified under 14-3 .



Maybe better said is that no person who is not eligible, or is disqualified can be sworn in or serve as President regardless of whether 'elected' by any state or not.
 
As far as states setting their own rules .... that hasn't gone well ....


Individual states did not introduce significant relevant legislation until the 2008 election of Barack Obama, when a controversy known as the birther movement was promoted by various conspiracy theorists. The "birthers" asserted during the 2008 presidential election campaign that Obama was not a natural-born U.S. citizen, as mandated by the Constitution, and thus was ineligible to be President of the United States, prompting several state legislatures to consider legislation aimed at requiring future presidential candidates to provide proof of citizenship by birth before being granted ballot access in their state. None of these efforts led to the passage of currently active laws.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_presidential_eligibility_legislation
 
Kinda makes you wonder what would happen if Don L'Orange got the votes, but the Nine said 'NOPE!!!, can't be sworn in.'
 
You mean like Biden?
Your pathetic attempt at whataboutism aside, it is a valid point.

States wouldn't feel the need to challenge his being on the ballot based on the 14th amendment of Republicans had an iota of integrity. You and A_J finally got the candidate you wanted. So what that he doesn't have a single redeeming quality.

And he absolutely is a danger to democracy. Although maybe you should like vivisection a bit about how refusing to transfer power supports democracy. Or how he called to terminate parts of the constitution?

Come on Ish, man up for a change and own your boy.
 
^^^ What's funny is a whole host of his own people saying the same thing. They saw how he acted the first time, from within. They were there. They know him first hand. THEY are saying he cannot ever be allowed back in.
 
Trump is NOT the end of democracy, but the response to Trump by various groups/individuals very well might be.
This is the most accurate thing you have ever posted. Accidentally getting it right doesn't score you points, though.
 
Listening to the RunUp - there's a great interview with Maine's SoS.
 
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