The comma.

[NotWise]

There was a brief blow-up on another forum about the use of commas. It wasn't the first time that I had to sigh and shake my head in confusion over the appropriate use of the Almighty Comma. Picture me if you will, like Rodin's "Thinker." Please. But maybe with a few more bulging muscles.

I've read into the "correct use" and the rules seem to require that I parse a sentence in order to decide when a comma is required. Of course, the sentence isn't usually written when I put a comma there so parsing it isn't an option. To make things worse, I think the last time I had to parse a sentence I was in 5th grade -- like, eleven years old. Not 6th -- 5th (and that ain't a sentence).

The last "grammar-like" class I took was English Syntax where the basic rule was "If it isn't ambiguous then it's probably right." Of course that flies in the face of those who need to parse a sentence (which has not been written yet) in order to decide where to place the Almighty Comma.

The last formal writing course I took was "Technical Writing." The instructor hated commas and insisted that commas could only be placed where the (or his) Rules of Grammar required one. I was totally pleased when he inserted commas into my final paper, because that was a better option than having them removed. He was clear that he subtracted for commas that he didn't see as justified, but he didn't subtract for adding commas that he thought were needed.

And then there are the Oxford rules, which seem simple but still require that I parse a sentence that doesn't exist yet.

Now I flinch whenever I touch the "comma" key.

Okay not really. but it makes me think about things that probably aren't constructive while I'm trying to write a story. How can "," be an issue?

 

[Weird Harold]

The last "grammar-like" class I took was English Syntax where the basic rule was "If it isn't ambiguous then it's probably right."

That's probably your best guide. Too many people obsess over commas but if you're relatively consistent you'll be OK.

One point about commas, at least in my writing, is that where I tend to put commas, some other punctuation would work better. Usually a period.

 

[barefootgirl69]

I love commas, but I love semi-colons more.
When used properly, of course. It really does help with the flow of a story. There is nothing worse than to read a story where things simply flow on and on with little or no punctuation. For people like me, it can mean that the beginning of a good thing can lead to a very bad ending. The kind where you throw the tablet down and plump your pillow in disgust and aggravation.

 

[lovecraft68]

Said blow up was simply over the fact one person here feels they are the only person qualified to discuss grammar here and was quite rude to a couple of new comers, nothing new there.

Yet same person will on one hand state all these rules and claim they are the only ones that know them, because they work in 'mainstream publishing'

Yet on other occasions when they do something that is technically incorrect they default to 'rules apply differently in fiction'. What this translates into is "I bully others with rules, but am so good, they don't apply to me.

The answer is not to stress over them and try to parse sentences and master the rules, etc.

The correct answer is the ignore feature.

Unfortunately Newbie author/posters don't know that before they come here and end up bullied, insulted and abused and then think WTF and leave.

You know in RI we don't pronounce our "R's" I.E. "Farm" is pronounced "Fahm"

So just as Pawn and Porn sound the same here and you really have to be careful saying you went to the "Pawn" shop, comma and karma are pronounced the same.

Maybe someday karma will come around for the resident comma and grammar bully.

 

[NOIRTRASH]

Music has a similar issue with RESTS, and a comma is a rest or pause to tune the reading flow.

Fifty years ago my music theory teacher usta play a recoding of two actors saying nothing but JOHN and MARSHA the whole time. But each JOHN and MARSHA was different from the others. The idea was to make us aware that music and speech are more than simple technical execution of notes and words.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KkfwmB8jeSU

 

[NOIRTRASH]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=suqSXWu9ddI

The series of Elgar music, above, illustrates how rests and pitch improve and spoil the sound.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HXjn6srhAlY Same words, different music

 

[NOIRTRASH]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJmpgQg0SMg

AVE MARIA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MAg6RtRonO0

Same lyrics, same performer, different music

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pwp1CH5R-w4

Same lyrics, different music, different performer

 

[ElectricBlue]

Lovecraft, Lovecraft, Lovecraft, such restraint! I'm impressed.

You know why Margaret Dumont was in all those Marx Brothers movies, don't you?

To set up all the best lines for Groucho. It's OK, she'll be along soon, have no doubt about that, comma or no comma.

 

[NOIRTRASH]

Those a slice or two better than LIT divas understand the punctuation comes after the prose is its best. Punctuation exists for clarity and flow. Make the words do the work.

 

[sr71plt]

Lovecraft, Lovecraft, Lovecraft, such restraint! I'm impressed.

You know why Margaret Dumont was in all those Marx Brothers movies, don't you?

To set up all the best lines for Groucho. It's OK, she'll be along soon, have no doubt about that, comma or no comma.

LC and restraint? HaHaHaHa. That's not likely ever to happen. In LC's case, it's just a sickness. He has to have someone to harass here on the boards. He just can't help himself. Usually it's me. But he's moved over to concentrate on Hands in the last year--except he just can't seem to hold himself off of attacking me from time to time, no matter how hard he tries to exercise restraint. It's just a sickness in him.

Here we just have another one of those examples of the Internet world fallacy that simply posting to the net makes you equal in knowledge to anyone else posting to the net.

Well, that and yet another example of LC's . . . and your . . . backbiting.

 

[sr71plt]

For publishing purposes (you can do anything here on Lit. Laurel lets you get away with--doesn't mean you should be protected from hearing what best publishing practice is), the use of the comma is fuller and more standardized than for, say, letter writing and what they teach you in high school for modern usage. This is because publishers are more concerned that the reader is quite clear on the structure of the sentence than they are in author creativity or laziness.

Both, U.S. and UK publishers use the serial (or Oxford) comma for series: Julia, Peter, and Fred.

They are pretty strict in using a comma for nonrestrictive (which) clauses and not using it for restrictive (that) clauses.

They both have cut back in the use of commas after introductory clauses (a comma after long introductory clauses: "On one bright, clear day in May," but not short ones: "In May I went to . . ."). They aren't good about identifying how long the introductory clause needs to be to get the comma, though.

They both use it for direct address: "Put the kettle on, Nellie." Not "Put the kettle on Nellie.")

They use a comma to set off a gerund clause (clause opener ending in "ing").
(Taking a nail file out of her purse, Sadie walked up to Neal and stabbed him in the heart.)

They use it for dialogue when the dialogue slug is part of the sentence: "You touch me one more time, Harold, and it's right into the stratosphere you go," said Mergatroid.)

It's not all that difficult to learn. You just have to accept that reader understanding is important to you and put a little effort into learning the basic principles of it.

And, yes, I think that if someone shows up from out of the blue here acting like an editor without any evidence they are one and starts telling you not to use commas as publishing does, someone who knows editing and publishing better has every reason to lower the boom on them--for the good of the author who has asked for feedback on doing it better--which should mean by best practices. It continues to boggle my mind here that writers ask for best practice and then willy-nilly are happy with anything posted by anybody. Why bother to ask if you didn't want to know best practice in publishing it?

And what boggles my mind even more is regular posters then going after the poster who, citing authority, has made the effort to keep a requesting author from being led down a garden path toward bad practice just because of some silly Internet vendetta they are conducting.

 

[NOIRTRASH]

This may be the place to change the topic to PILOT Error.

 

[sr71plt]

This may be the place to change the topic to PILOT Error.

Or it may be a place to start using common sense and assessing Jame B. Johnson for the asshole that he continues to be.

Let's have a few more of your "it's all about me; give me attention" blog posts today, Jim.

Of course it makes perfect sense that you would like authors here to be as lazy about bothering to learn the fundamentals of writing as you are.

 

[NOIRTRASH]

Darn PILOT error.

 

[Handley_Page]

I love commas, but I love semi-colons more.
When used properly, of course. It really does help with the flow of a story. There is nothing worse than to read a story where things simply flow on and on with little or no punctuation. For people like me, it can mean that the beginning of a good thing can lead to a very bad ending. The kind where you throw the tablet down and plump your pillow in disgust and aggravation.

I think you get the right rhythm if the commas are in the right place. The reader then knows something, unstated, about the character.
"throw the tablet down"? be thankful you ain't reading a tower PC. !

So just as Pawn and Porn sound the same here and you really have to be careful saying you went to the "Pawn" shop, comma and karma are pronounced the same.

I presume you mean in your personal corner of the world (I assume that it might be different in other parts of the USA). Whilst I agree it can make pronunciation a trifle tricky, round here, 'Porn' and 'Pawn' do NOT sound the same at all.
But it might be remembered that Porn is a shortening of Pornography, or so I am told.

 

[NotWise]

Both, U.S. and UK publishers use the serial (or Oxford) comma for series: Julia, Peter, and Fred.

The way I learned the use of the serial comma, the comma before the "and" would be omitted.

They are pretty strict in using a comma for nonrestrictive (which) clauses and not using it for restrictive (that) clauses.

Yeah, I'm not sure what that means. If it means what I think it means then it makes sense.

They both have cut back in the use of commas after introductory clauses (a comma after long introductory clauses: "On one bright, clear day in May," but not short ones: "In May I went to . . ."). They aren't good about identifying how long the introductory clause needs to be to get the comma, though.

The guidance I've read is that you should not use a comma to separate a leading prepositional phrase from the sentence. I'm getting used to the idea but it's sometimes still a struggle.

They both use it for direct address: "Put the kettle on, Nellie." Not "Put the kettle on Nellie."

This usage falls under the syntax rule. The comma is necessary to resolve the possible ambiguity.

They use a comma to set off a gerund clause (clause opener ending in "ing").
(Taking a nail file out of her purse, Sadie walked up to Neal and stabbed him in the heart.)

Entirely a personal choice, but I try to avoid opening sentences with gerund clauses.

They use it for dialogue when the dialogue slug is part of the sentence: "You touch me one more time, Harold, and it's right into the stratosphere you go," said Mergatroid.)

I would write that sentence differently -- probably omitting the comma before "Harold." But even more likely I'd write it as "Harold, if you touch me one more time..." One less comma that way.

I didn't intend to drag the previous dust-up into this forum, so I'll just leave it at that.

 

[geronimo_appleby]

rules, eh?

fuck 'em.

although i sometimes wish cormac mccarthy would use a comma more often!

and when i see "come on England!" on Facebook posts during rugby competitions, etc., i do have to smirk.

 

[NOIRTRASH]

rules, eh?

fuck 'em.

although i sometimes wish cormac mccarthy would use a comma more often!

and when i see "come on England!" on Facebook posts during rugby competitions, etc., i do have to smirk.

Only God knows who makes all the grammar and punctuation rules. Prolly some illiterate printers devil in a hurry.

 

[geronimo_appleby]

Only God knows who makes all the grammar and punctuation rules. Prolly some illiterate printers devil in a hurry.

and editors.

 

[sr71plt]

The way I learned the use of the serial comma, the comma before the "and" would be omitted.

Umm, no. That is the serial comma (the comma before the "and"). Publishing uses it for absolute clarity for the reader.

The guidance I've read is that you should not use a comma to separate a leading prepositional phrase from the sentence. I'm getting used to the idea but it's sometimes still a struggle.

The Chicago Manual of Style calls for one if the phrase it long (publishers usually use five words). That's the point on why publishing style is more comma intense that what you are taught in high school.

Entirely a personal choice, but I try to avoid opening sentences with gerund clauses.

But it's fine if someone does choose to open sentences with a gerund clause, and publishing then uses a comma. It does so if the clause is anywhere else in the sentence too.

I would write that sentence differently -- probably omitting the comma before "Harold." But even more likely I'd write it as "Harold, if you touch me one more time..." One less comma that way.

It's the author's choice, not the editors, on the placement of clauses--unless it really reads screwy, in which case the editor can suggest the author rewrite it. So, editors are taught to punctuate the sentence as the author gives it--not to rewrite.

This is sort of what I mean about taking into your own hands what Lit. probably will let you do not being the same that would be forced on you in the publishing world. It's a matter of wanting to learn best practices that will fly beyond Lit. or being so stubborn about your druthers and what you sort of remember somebody's aunt Hazel told you how it should be handled that you don't care what you're going to have to relearn if you go beyond Lit. because you didn't want to learn best practices from the get go.

If someone asks how to handle a grammar or punctuation issue, they deserve to be told publishing standards. Then of course they can jolly well do anything they want with their Lit. submission.

 

[sr71plt]

And, once again, James B. Johnson is championing no rules because he's too lazy to learn them and wants everyone else to be in the same boat with him to help make him feel superior.

You want to try that here at Lit. fine. But again, if you ask for the proper way to do something, you're not asking for the lazy version, you're asking for the best practices version. Or don't ask at all--just go ahead and do what you damn well please and hope Laurel pushes it through. That's fine with me. I only give guidance when it's asked for.

 

[NOIRTRASH]

and editors.

I'm betting the printers devil ran outta the type he needed for composition.

 

[geronimo_appleby]

And, once again, James B. Johnson is championing no rules because he's too lazy to learn them and wants everyone else to be in the same boat with him to help make him feel superior.

You want to try that here at Lit. fine. But again, if you ask for the proper way to do something, you're not asking for the lazy version, you're asking for the best practices version. Or don't ask at all--just go ahead and do what you damn well please and hope Laurel pushes it through. That's fine with me. I only give guidance when it's asked for.

kettle/pot - much?

 

[sr71plt]

kettle/pot - much?

Fuck off, flighty boy. What's superior to me are the authorities publishing provides, not me.

What we have here is "it's all about me" amateur hour, and you're the MC.

(Didn't think I'd ever dish it back at you, did you? Tough.)

 

[geronimo_appleby]

Fuck off, flighty boy. What's superior to me are the authorities publishing provides, not me.

What we have here is "it's all about me" amateur hour, and you're the MC.

(Didn't think I'd ever dish it back at you, did you? Tough.)

for a former-military man, you're a bit of a cry-baby whinger, aren't you?

http://static1.holidayextras.com/images/family-travel/crying-baby.jpg