The Age Factor

[JMohegan]

THIS is what I'm fighting against?

No. The only thing you will ever be fighting against is your own lack of confidence and tendency to see the glass half empty.

MS, I think Kybele is older than you are anyway. Possibly has different taste in music, art, movies, gaming, or whatever it is you crazy kids are doing these days. So what?

The thing that's missing from this conversation is the fact that a D/s relationship is still a relationship, first and foremost. The trick is finding an s-type among the group of females who click with your personality and share your life's passions and goals.

 

[00Syd]

The thing that's missing from this conversation is the fact that a D/s relationship is still a relationship, first and foremost. The trick is finding an s-type among the group of females who click with your personality and share your life's passions and goals.

*ding ding ding ding ding*

 

[jadefirefly]

No. The only thing you will ever be fighting against is your own lack of confidence and tendency to see the glass half empty.

MS, I think Kybele is older than you are anyway. Possibly has different taste in music, art, movies, gaming, or whatever it is you crazy kids are doing these days. So what?

The thing that's missing from this conversation is the fact that a D/s relationship is still a relationship, first and foremost. The trick is finding an s-type among the group of females who click with your personality and share your life's passions and goals.

This man's letterwords be smart. Listen to him.

Honestly, others have said it better than me -- while sometimes confidence and charisma come with age, sometimes they don't. And it's stupid as hell to assume they MUST.

And you'll have to forgive me, I missed the posting name - but whoever you are who needs your Dom to have such a charming list of utterly superficial physical characteristics, but left out important things such as 'caring', 'intelligent', and 'responsible' - you owe me a new keyboard. I accidentally horked peanut butter cup ice cream all over it.

Some of it came out my nose. It hurts.

 

[Netzach]

Why are young dominants looked down upon as being inexperienced and unworthy of our time, but yet young submissives are sought after and prized. Wouldn't there be the same problem of inexperience in both young dominants AND young submissives? Why are young and inexperienced submissives treated as lost baby birds just in need of direction and training, when young dominants, who may similarly need direction and training are thrown in the gutter and told to "grow up"?

This is bullshit. Complete and utter bullshit.



My boyfriend and dominant is 24 years old, and I accept him as a dominant. Just because he doesnt have as much life experience doesn't make him any less of a dominant, or any more of a "bad" dominant. The attitude that young dominants aren't dominant at all, or that they aren't worthy of calling themselves that, or that submissives won't accept a young dominant as such, is directly insulting not just to my boyfriend, but to me. This attitude is insulting to me because it basically scoffs at my relationship and my choice of lover as inadequate.

Fuck. That. Shit.

Everyone is entitled to their personal preference (be it about age, weight, or hair color), but for one person to try to justify their personal preference in lovers as being some universal truth... That's ridiculous.

Why yes, it is utter bullshit, my dear Syd.

And I am unsure if it is about girls versus boys who are young and entering the community or subs versus Doms. Because I was definitely a lost baby lamb, versus a menace to society. Which is pretty much how I see boys versus girls treated.

One of the most competent tops, from a physical standpoint, that I ever met - was actually a VERY flaky 22 year old gal - who had more play
pound for pound experience than just about everyone I met in the non-pro scene. She wasn't even "dominant" but a sadistic submissive.

It was incredibly amusing to watch the older contingent write her off while she rocked the world of those they let play with her, because you know F/f action, cuuuute..

I had some experiences like that myself. "Sure, borrow my femsub." Femsub's world is rocked because I am, lo and behold, not afraid to give her face a slap.

 

[Netzach]

For every five people who are motivated by big n' hairy, you'll find someone like me who gets attentive when confronted with "looks totally hot in a dress, smells like a man" or "slight and evil with a high pitched voice" or "my age." Yes, it's true MOST people like a certain type in the scene. However those same people may be of a type that doesn't work for *you* either, right?

None of which describes my top, who is more your big hairy 50 yo sort, so most people are also flexible about these things faced with the right person.

 

[00Syd]

Why yes, it is utter bullshit, my dear Syd.

And I am unsure if it is about girls versus boys who are young and entering the community or subs versus Doms. Because I was definitely a lost baby lamb, versus a menace to society. Which is pretty much how I see boys versus girls treated.

One of the most competent tops, from a physical standpoint, that I ever met - was actually a VERY flaky 22 year old gal - who had more play
pound for pound experience than just about everyone I met in the non-pro scene. She wasn't even "dominant" but a sadistic submissive.

It was incredibly amusing to watch the older contingent write her off while she rocked the world of those they let play with her, because you know F/f action, cuuuute..

I had some experiences like that myself. "Sure, borrow my femsub." Femsub's world is rocked because I am, lo and behold, not afraid to give her face a slap.

I actually see it is being hugely about gender. So much of what is prized in the BDSM community is dictated by men, whether they are dominant or submissive.

Who are the most sought after people in the community? Young female submissives, and young female dominants. Young male dominants get thrown to the wayside, older female dominants get ignored for the youngest piece of tail to walk in the room covered in latex, and it seems like dominants of all ages can sniff out the young and inexperienced femsub from 30 miles away, leaving the older and more experienced femsubs in the dust. I don't have a whole lot of insight on male subs, except for seeing them dictating a lot of the femdom culture, so at this point I turn to you, Netz.

 

[Netzach]

I actually see it is being hugely about gender. So much of what is prized in the BDSM community is dictated by men, whether they are dominant or submissive.

Who are the most sought after people in the community? Young female submissives, and young female dominants. Young male dominants get thrown to the wayside, older female dominants get ignored for the youngest piece of tail to walk in the room covered in latex, and it seems like dominants of all ages can sniff out the young and inexperienced femsub from 30 miles away, leaving the older and more experienced femsubs in the dust. I don't have a whole lot of insight on male subs, except for seeing them dictating a lot of the femdom culture, so at this point I turn to you, Netz.

My findings are this: among clients of pros, you have the Barbie collector mentality.

Among boys who are actually in the dating pool, I find that there's slightly SLIGHTLY less flocking to the youngest piece of ass than there is among the general vanilla population.

Because of this, as with the M/f side, you find a bit of circling of wagons on the part of older FDoms, who like to keep the attention, and a dismissive attitude toward the younger Dommes. Sure she's cute, but what can she really do for you? A lot of men feel this way. A lot of men cannot CANNOT imagine *really* rolling over for a woman half their age, because what could she possibly actually know, right?

However the mental ideal that a LOT of younger men come in with is the 40something experienced woman - the "oh teach me to eat pussy" paradigm. I think things are more spread out. You will be wanted when you come into the scene at 23, but what FOR is the question, and it's different from when you are hanging around the 40 yr mark and not the 30 yr mark. I look younger than I am - it's just factual - so I find that I'm in a kind of not fish nor fowl stage where being categorized is less easy.

 

[00Syd]

My findings are this: among clients of pros, you have the Barbie collector mentality.

Among boys who are actually in the dating pool, I find that there's slightly SLIGHTLY less flocking to the youngest piece of ass than there is among the general vanilla population.

Because of this, as with the M/f side, you find a bit of circling of wagons on the part of older FDoms, who like to keep the attention, and a dismissive attitude toward the younger Dommes. Sure she's cute, but what can she really do for you? A lot of men feel this way. A lot of men cannot CANNOT imagine *really* rolling over for a woman half their age, because what could she possibly actually know, right?

However the mental ideal that a LOT of younger men come in with is the 40something experienced woman - the "oh teach me to eat pussy" paradigm. I think things are more spread out. You will be wanted when you come into the scene at 23, but what FOR is the question, and it's different from when you are hanging around the 40 yr mark.

As far as the F/m side of things is concerned, my view of things might be slightly skewed because most of the femdoms that I see and that I know are pros. Or aspire to be. Or are asked to be.

I admittedly see the BDSM community as a whole out of M/s tinted glasses. I try to take them off as often as I can but its not always easy. There is a huge, exciting, boisterous pansexual, pangendered community around these parts that I wish I related to more easily.

 

[Netzach]

Which beings me to this: The value of TNG groups. As someone who is too old to be in one, I believe they're a GREAT idea. It's not just an ageist clustering of people who find older people unhot - a LOT of TNG people have partners in the older age bracket - it's just REALLY nice to be in an atmosphere where your skills are completely not assumed one way or another. It's a great idea.

 

[Netzach]

As far as the F/m side of things is concerned, my view of things might be slightly skewed because most of the femdoms that I see and that I know are pros. Or aspire to be. Or are asked to be.

I know, right? It seems like there's a total explosion in the last ten years or so. I didn't dream of even thinking about it till I'd been swimming around for seven years. I mean pro with what? My ass or a developed toolkit? If you happen to have a developed toolkit and you are 22 (as my person described earlier did) then rock on, but a lot of people are just diving in and learning on the job.

Enough clients out there DO like to see people who have the gestalt of being older and the track record of 12-15-20 years of doing stuff. It really depends on the demands of your fetish and I've always thought to myself, there's never a hard dick shortage, there's enough for everyone.

The FIRST thing everyone gets asked is pretty much "do you plan on selling your sexuality, because you totally, you know, could with your look!"

That's a little messed up, IMO.

 

[Netzach]

There is a huge, exciting, boisterous pansexual, pangendered community around these parts that I wish I related to more easily.

I always found that scene more attractive but more mystifying, personality-driven, and intimidating myself, as an introvert among extroverts.

I'm trying to think "what nurtured me?" For a duration I'd say it was GLBT mixed Leather, but that wasn't quite what I needed either. The relationships I found here and there do.

 

[00Syd]

Which beings me to this: The value of TNG groups. As someone who is too old to be in one, I believe they're a GREAT idea. It's not just an ageist clustering of people who find older people unhot - a LOT of TNG people have partners in the older age bracket - it's just REALLY nice to be in an atmosphere where your skills are completely not assumed one way or another. It's a great idea.

Yesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyes.

Netz, if you ever make it out to NYC in the future, let me know. I would be honored to bring you to a NYC TNG meeting as a guest. I think you would really dig seeing this huge group of awesome, smart, competent people learning and exploring and having fun growing up as sexual beings, together.

 

[00Syd]

I always found that scene more attractive but more mystifying, personality-driven, and intimidating myself, as an introvert among extroverts.

I'm trying to think "what nurtured me?" For a duration I'd say it was GLBT mixed Leather, but that wasn't quite what I needed either. The relationships I found here and there do.

Every time I hang out with that group of folks I feel pretty out of place. It sucks to want to be a part of something that you know deep down just isn't a part of you.

I'm sure I'll have a better idea of what's nurtured me once I'm done being nurtured, but I'd have to say that a huge part of my kinky life right now is the NYC TNG community. Them, along with my relationship, are really doing wonders for me. I've come far farther in my understanding of myself in the last few months than I came in the last few years. Its astounding.

P.S. Oh wow, way to dominate the thread Syd and Netz.

 

[Netzach]

I would absolutely dig the TNG invite, I think it would be so cool. The whole youth thing only gained traction here when I was at the very end of my tenure. Some people were trying to make the 30 year mark really soft and flexible to hang with their friends at any cost and to me it defeats the whole point. I'd absolutely love a peek at that, in the appropriate "I'm bringing my one old fart" allotted guest thing you guys do, I'm not even sure how it works out there.

LOL yeah, get a room us.

 

[00Syd]

I would absolutely dig the TNG invite, I think it would be so cool. The whole youth thing only gained traction here when I was at the very end of my tenure. Some people were trying to make the 30 year mark really soft and flexible to hang with their friends at any cost and to me it defeats the whole point. I'd absolutely love a peek at that.

LOL yeah, get a room us.

Yay! I feel like a 6 year old who just set up a play date with the coolest kid in kindergarten.

I feel super thankful to have come into the community at a point where TNG groups are supported and the youth culture is thriving. Its pretty darn exciting.

 

[BiBunny]

You know, not every femsub is some bitch with a daddy complex wanting to fuck some dude stuck in a mid-life crisis. Just sayin'. I like people close to my own age, thanks.

 

[where]

heh... cat among the pigeons...

As a 51 year old guy, whose experience with power and pain goes all the way back to college, part of me finds what you write here truly delightful. Indeed, I find the comparison to neurosurgery quite gratifying.

*puffs chest. starts to swagger.*

Just kidding.

The truth is that all that's required in order to be a responsible Top is personal character, and all that's required in order to be an effective Top is curiosity, creativity, energy, focus, and a willingness to learn.

Those things are not correlated with age. Truthfully, they're just not.

Now, if you want to talk about non-bedroom relationship issues, that's a separate subject. But if someone wants to argue that older men who chase after college females are somehow more likely to be mature and well-adjusted than younger males, I'm just gonna start laughing.

I agree that age does not necessarily equate to maturity, but it often does, and whilst I appreciate Syd's comments about an inexperienced older dom being more worriesome than an inexperienced younger dom as being true, that only really applies if the older man suddenly decided he wanted to be a dom. Does that ever happen? My gut feeling (and you guys can flame me for this, because I'm not really in 'the scene' as it were) is that you either ARE dominant, or you aren't. it's not something you decide to be on a whim. You may decide that you want to identify yourself as 'A Dom', which is an entirely different thing IMHO, because it implies putting yourself into a social arena which has specific values, mores and in some cases rituals.

Exactly how is a younger dominant supposed to "learn and grow" as a dominant, if the submissives out there judge him by his age and therefore consider him to be too inexperienced to scene with?

And not every submissive woman on the planet submits in such a manner as to endanger her body. Not all submissives are masochists.

And those "vanilla relationship skills" that will make him more desirable as a dominant at a later stage - those are the same skills that will put women at ease who are -

Will it? Because if the "skills" being honed are basic relationship skills, I fail to see how those skills earned though age are going to do a damn thing to make a dominant man "safer" to play with re: taking physical risks. Therefore the argument that a young dominant [without experience] can just "wait it out" and thus become more trustworthy is lame as hell. They just end up being an older dominant [without experience] who magically becomes trustworthy because of age.

you don't think basic relationship skills are important in D/s relationships?

Again, I'm not 'in the scene', so it could be that Doms start indulging in humiliation, slapping faces, rope suspension, breath control etc from the get go. Mine started with fluffy handcuffs and playful bum spanking, baby steps as it were. I had no idea that so many skills identified with Doms (as opposed to dominant men/women) are just naturally there. forgive my ignorance.

Yes, yes I do. Regardless of what my whining on here might imply, I don't actually hate myself and I'm not insecure about my sexual identity at all. Other people took longer to find their identities? Sucks for them, what's that got to do with me?

I'm sexy and awesome and delicious.

Alternatively, I don't know your dominant, I can't really compare myself to him and I'm not talking about stealing away women from their dominants to begin with. I don't know exactly what I've got to offer, but I'm pretty sure it's going to be better than nothing at all, which is what submissive women with no accompanying dominants have.

...you gotta be kidding. Do you seriously have a checklist full of completely superficial qualities for determining whether a man is dominant? If a dominant isn't big, he's not worthy? If he's not older, he's not worthy? If he doesn't have a deep voice? THIS is what I'm fighting against?

So I'd be asking older doms whether they are better than younger doms. Have you spoken to an average old person in the last century?

Dude, the check list was tongue in cheek, but take a look at the bdsm personals here. tell me which ones actually get the responses. The ones from the young inexperienced doms or wanna-be-doms or the ones from guys who at least profess experience and aptitude and then look at the ages.

Fuck it, I'm not making up the rules here, I'm making observations and you can all shout as much as you like but older male doms seem to be more successful than younger ones. Interstingly, the same isn't true of young female doms, but I guess that's partly down to market forces.

And I'm sure you are sexy and awesome and delicious, which is why you are such a hit with the ladies.

 

[JMohegan]

I agree that age does not necessarily equate to maturity, but it often does, and whilst I appreciate Syd's comments about an inexperienced older dom being more worriesome than an inexperienced younger dom as being true, that only really applies if the older man suddenly decided he wanted to be a dom. Does that ever happen? My gut feeling (and you guys can flame me for this, because I'm not really in 'the scene' as it were) is that you either ARE dominant, or you aren't. it's not something you decide to be on a whim. You may decide that you want to identify yourself as 'A Dom', which is an entirely different thing IMHO, because it implies putting yourself into a social arena which has specific values, mores and in some cases rituals.

I'd say that age usually does correlate to maturity, in the sense that individuals tend to become more mature with age and experience.

That's true for both men and women, yes?

When I said, "if someone wants to argue that older men who chase after college females are somehow more likely to be mature and well-adjusted than younger males, I'm just gonna start laughing," I wasn't talking about older guys in general. I was referencing the type of older guy who chases skirt half his age. Tits and ass aside, why do some guys do this? I can point to a lot of reasons having to do with anything but personal grounding and self-confidence.

As for your question here, I tend to agree with the gut feeling you express. But the list of guys who claim to have suddenly discovered their dominance, after decades of unsatisfying marriage, is really quite astoundingly lengthy.

 

[JMohegan]

Fuck it, I'm not making up the rules here, I'm making observations and you can all shout as much as you like but older male doms seem to be more successful than younger ones.

For the record, I'm not shouting.

Where are you making these observations? I can think of several venues in which your observation is absolutely spot on, but those venues are not real life, as I've known it.

 

[CutieMouse]

you don't think basic relationship skills are important in D/s relationships?

Again, I'm not 'in the scene', so it could be that Doms start indulging in humiliation, slapping faces, rope suspension, breath control etc from the get go. Mine started with fluffy handcuffs and playful bum spanking, baby steps as it were. I had no idea that so many skills identified with Doms (as opposed to dominant men/women) are just naturally there. forgive my ignorance.

Basic (and advanced) relationship skills are vital to a healthy D/s relationship.

However, in your first post you were talking about the submissive putting her body in the hands of someone who could use it for his whatever whim - *while maintaining her physical safety*.

Learning to communicate/express desires/learn to take charge (or give up control) sometimes tends to get better with age - agreed. But IMO it has absolutely jack to do with Domly activities that can endanger a submissive's physical well being. 15 years of dating or marriage isn't going to teach someone where to hit with a flogger (assuming that's their thing).

 

[where]

I'd say that age usually does correlate to maturity, in the sense that individuals tend to become more mature with age and experience.

That's true for both men and women, yes?

When I said, "if someone wants to argue that older men who chase after college females are somehow more likely to be mature and well-adjusted than younger males, I'm just gonna start laughing," I wasn't talking about older guys in general. I was referencing the type of older guy who chases skirt half his age. Tits and ass aside, why do some guys do this? I can point to a lot of reasons having to do with anything but personal grounding and self-confidence.

As for your question here, I tend to agree with the gut feeling you express. But the list of guys who claim to have suddenly discovered their dominance, after decades of unsatisfying marriage, is really quite astoundingly lengthy.

why do old guys chase young skirt? god knows! ego boosting, the fact young women's bodies are physically attractive, the ability to play the 'man' to a less skeptical mate... possible reasons are endless...

I'll take your word on the last bit. from what I've read here and other fora as well as what I've learned from meeting and knowing dominant men, I find the reverse to be true.

For the record, I'm not shouting.

Where are you making these observations? I can think of several venues in which your observation is absolutely spot on, but those venues are not real life, as I've known it.

turn of phrase

I'm taking my observations from what i've seen on here... (and lets face it, if the age of the dom ~weren't~ an issue, then why is this thread stirring up so much discussion? why is it that good, reasonable personal ads from decent people like mistersir's amongst others don't elicit much response?) and also on discussions I've had with my Dom and others.

I'm not saying it's the only ~truth~ or even that it's right, just that it's ~my~ personal observations, to agree with or disagree with as you choose.

 

[JMohegan]

I'm taking my observations from what i've seen on here... (and lets face it, if the age of the dom ~weren't~ an issue, then why is this thread stirring up so much discussion? why is it that good, reasonable personal ads from decent people like mistersir's amongst others don't elicit much response?) and also on discussions I've had with my Dom and others.

I entered this discussion in an attempt to prop up the confidence of an individual who seems to need said propping.

I have no idea what goes on in the world of personal ads, here or anywhere else. I don't search for mates on the Internet, never have, and don't hang out in the real world with people who do. I have always established relationships the old-fashioned way - by getting to know women as people (not subs), and building the connection on chemistry, common interests, and like goals.

But thinking about how the personal ad mating process would work, I can see why your comments here make a lot of sense.

If Sirfabulous pops on and writes, "D with many years of experience beating, training, and mindfucking females seeks new s," and Sirskimpy pops on and writes, "D with no experience, but sure to enjoy flogging and breath play, pick me," then given those facts alone Sirfabulous seems more qualified. Of course.

Though frankly, I wonder why an allegedly successful D would need to fish the Internet for potential partners. Unless he's looking for something very extreme or specific, it makes me wonder what's going on in his local pond.

 

[Cattypuss]

I can't submit sexually to a man I don't respect. Just the way I'm wired.

And I find it easier to respect older men, with their greater life-experience, greater self-possession and quiet confidence.

Young, confident men tend to strike me as arrogant, and I can't respect an arrogant man. Older confident men tend to be very quietly at ease with themselves, which is something I find very easy to respect.

The man doesn't have to be older than me. I'm 42. But it would be a VERY special man under 35 who had the quiet self-possession required for me to submit to him.

 

[JMohegan]

I can't submit sexually to a man I don't respect. Just the way I'm wired.

And I find it easier to respect older men, with their greater life-experience, greater self-possession and quiet confidence.

Young, confident men tend to strike me as arrogant, and I can't respect an arrogant man. Older confident men tend to be very quietly at ease with themselves, which is something I find very easy to respect.

The man doesn't have to be older than me. I'm 42. But it would be a VERY special man under 35 who had the quiet self-possession required for me to submit to him.

I hear you. In the context of a relationship, I am uninterested in dominating a woman I don't respect. Just the way I'm wired.

Young females tend to strike me as self-absorbed, and lacking in the maturity and wisdom that comes from meeting the many challenges of adult experience.

Of course, there are exceptions.

 

[DVS]

Why are young dominants looked down upon as being inexperienced and unworthy of our time, but yet young submissives are sought after and prized. Wouldn't there be the same problem of inexperience in both young dominants AND young submissives? Why are young and inexperienced submissives treated as lost baby birds just in need of direction and training, when young dominants, who may similarly need direction and training are thrown in the gutter and told to "grow up"?

This is bullshit. Complete and utter bullshit.



My boyfriend and dominant is 24 years old, and I accept him as a dominant. Just because he doesnt have as much life experience doesn't make him any less of a dominant, or any more of a "bad" dominant. The attitude that young dominants aren't dominant at all, or that they aren't worthy of calling themselves that, or that submissives won't accept a young dominant as such, is directly insulting not just to my boyfriend, but to me. This attitude is insulting to me because it basically scoffs at my relationship and my choice of lover as inadequate.

Fuck. That. Shit.

Everyone is entitled to their personal preference (be it about age, weight, or hair color), but for one person to try to justify their personal preference in lovers as being some universal truth... That's ridiculous.

Everyone is talking generalizations here. There are always exceptions to any rule, especially when people, their personalities and their experiences are concerned.

There are no absolutes and no perfections. As with most situations of this type "your mileage may vary".