That's racist!

[ishtat]

Could Schindlers (Ark) List, a story of Jews and a particular view of the holocaust have possibly been written by a Catholic Australian of Irish background. Yet Thomas Keneally, a man with no direct experience of the place or events did it.

Because he can write.

 

[BuckyDuckman]

It might not be either. It might be that the professor is making sure that teachers dealing with urban kids and parents don't get accused of racism. That they are protect themselves from that and from how it can derail their class and their teaching. It may be a very useful thing for teachers in that situation to do.

Also, it's easy to "poo-poo" and ignore this by throwing around words like "PC" and "White Guilt"--which essentially like someone calling you racist. They toss that word in there to imply what you're saying is prejudicial and should be ignored. But there are writers who write about other religions/cultures/genders/races in ways that are racist and prejudicial.

So I think we can disagree with the professor without going into outrage mode and end up throwing out the baby with the bathwater. Just because the professor's blanket statement (being a blanket statement) isn't totally and always correct doesn't mean that it's never correct. Or that we should totally ignore it, or take it personally.

You may be right, 3113. Most of what you've said seems to fit where my daughter has settled on things. For me? It's not the author who establishes the authenticity of the work; it's the audience. If members of a certain sub-culture hold up a book as a fine example of their experiences, then who cares about the author's (or illustrator's) sub-culture?

Using the ethnicity of the writer/artist as the first measure of merit still feels wrongheaded to me.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

God knows the Bible is irrelevant pretentious Semitic chauvinistic claptrap beneath the dignity of the world.

 

[sr71plt]

I'm not going to say "only black men should write about black men," or whatever, but I think for the most part, if a writer without personal insight into an ethnic culture of which he or she is not part attempts to write in detail about that culture, there will be some failings. There will be a lot of failings.

That's what good research is all about. You don't have to be a black man to research into the black experience and to interview black men--or even to explore parallel experience.

Good lord, we couldn't have much of any writing at all if you had to personally experience everything you write about for you to have reached valid understandings (which are a dynamic issue themselves).

 

[Stella_Omega]

Honestly I'm not sure which is worse, teachers needing to make sure that the books they give to grade school kids needs ethnic persons as part of the writing process of the book, or that people will actually bother to fucking look it up later to complain about.

^^^^This. ^^^^

My question is; how many authors were they able to find?

It's not so much that only blacks can write about being black but that so very few black authors get published.

It's easy to say that it's wrong to award black writers a badge of merit just because they are black. But in fact the problem is the opposite-- black writers tend to get discounted. "oh, she only got published because she's black. She's not so great." But how many white writers are so great either?

Could Schindlers (Ark) List, a story of Jews and a particular view of the holocaust have possibly been written by a Catholic Australian of Irish background. Yet Thomas Keneally, a man with no direct experience of the place or events did it.

Because he can write.

Yeah, he wrote the sweetest little feelgood novel. Made lots of people feel much better.

And also, gave a lot of people a book to point at to prove that black people don't have to write about themselves because whites can do it for them.

I dunno, you guys.

 

[BuckyDuckman]

Honestly I'm not sure which is worse, teachers needing to make sure that the books they give to grade school kids needs ethnic persons as part of the writing process of the book, or that people will actually bother to fucking look it up later to complain about.

^^^^This. ^^^^

My question is; how many authors were they able to find?

It's not so much that only blacks can write about being black but that so very few black authors get published.

It's easy to say that it's wrong to award black writers a badge of merit just because they are black. But in fact the problem is the opposite-- black writers tend to get discounted. "oh, she only got published because she's black. She's not so great." But how many white writers are so great either?


Yeah, he wrote the sweetest little feelgood novel. Made lots of people feel much better.

And also, gave a lot of people a book to point at to prove that black people don't have to write about themselves because whites can do it for them.

I dunno, you guys.

Actually, Stella, I consider you a good measure of political correctness (which I actually mean in a good way). I'm curious what your take is on instructor's instructions. Appropriate considering the course work (which is how I'm taking 3113's comments) or well meaning, but racist on its surface (which is where I think I've landed) or . . . ?

We've got some opinionated people around here and I'm glad a good number of them have weighed in.

You seem to be against the Schindlers List example. Does that mean you fall into the camp of "if you're righting outside your ethnicity, it's inherently racist?"

 

[Bramblethorn]

Could Schindlers (Ark) List, a story of Jews and a particular view of the holocaust have possibly been written by a Catholic Australian of Irish background. Yet Thomas Keneally, a man with no direct experience of the place or events did it.

Because he can write.

Note that Keneally didn't write that book on his lonesome. The whole thing started when he met Poldek Pfefferberg, one of the Schindlerjuden who was determined that the story be told and force-fed Keneally his extensive notes. From there Keneally interviewed a lot of other survivors; IIRC Australia has the highest concentration per capita of Holocaust survivors of any nation outside Israel.

The survivors who gave Keneally their stories aren't listed as co-authors, but he's always acknowledged the importance of their contribution to the book. Pfefferberg might've been able to find some other novelist to tell that story, but Keneally would never have written it without Pfefferberg. Moral is, if you're going to write outside your experience, you don't just need writing talent, you need research skills too.

Without that you end up writing something like "The Boy in the Striped Pyjamas", which pissed off a lot of Holocaust survivors. Full of historical accuracies (the whole premise, for starters) and supportive of the notion that ordinary Germans didn't know what was happening to the Jews.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Actually, Stella, I consider you a good measure of political correctness (which I actually mean in a good way). I'm curious what your take is on instructor's instructions. Appropriate considering the course work (which is how I'm taking 3113's comments) or well meaning, but racist on its surface (which is where I think I've landed) or . . . ?

We've got some opinionated people around here and I'm glad a good number of them have weighed in.

You seem to be against the Schindlers List example. Does that mean you fall into the camp of "if you're righting outside your ethnicity, it's inherently racist?"

On its surface. "racism' is one of those words that might mean something very, very, different when we talk about intitutionalised racial divides or when a white guy is all upset by the idea of black writers being preferred in a class course.

Thing about Schindler's ark, is that it's a book about how a not-jewish guy is the savior of a significant number of Jewish individuals. Which is wonderful, don't get me wrong. Really, it is. But the focus is on Schindler, not on the Jews themselves. One of the themes of the book is that Schindler was nothing much before the war and nothing much after it. (I had to get that from wikipedia, it's been years since I read it).

(and the movie was made by Jews...)

 

[emap]

Honestly I think ya'll are thinking about this to much in the look at who writes a novel about an ethnic person side. This isn't even about that, this is about teachers needing to look at the behind the book just to find a book to teach in a class.

Just think about that.

This isn't about anything except people wanting something to complain about which teachers need to prevent happening. So they get a smattering of all ethnicities in the background of the books they teach to children.

Granted one can say they are trying to say hey no matter what color you are on the outside the inside is what matters. Bullshit, this is about keeping a job they are training to hold and not giving the truly fucked up a leg to stand on.

 

[BuckyDuckman]

Honestly I think ya'll are thinking about this to much in the look at who writes a novel about an ethnic person side. This isn't even about that, this is about teachers needing to look at the behind the book just to find a book to teach in a class.

Just think about that.

This isn't about anything except people wanting something to complain about which teachers need to prevent happening. So they get a smattering of all ethnicities in the background of the books they teach to children.

Granted one can say they are trying to say hey no matter what color you are on the outside the inside is what matters. Bullshit, this is about keeping a job they are training to hold and not giving the truly fucked up a leg to stand on.

You make a lot of sense.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

I'll tell yah what I usta say to people: I don't gotta fuckin luv yah, all I gotta do is right by yah. Youll do what yah need to do with it. Be it a can of pork and beans, 40 bux, or 9 inches. Black people get it.

 

[Bramblethorn]

I guess one way to look at this is: Let's suppose I'm a teacher trying to select a curriculum that represents a variety of different races and portrays them well.

I believe it's quite possible for an author to write outside their own experience and give a good representation of the subject - let's say, a white author writing about Australian Aboriginal characters in a remote community.

But I can't pick up their book and tell whether they've achieved this, because I'm a middle-class urban white Aussie and I don't know what "accurate" looks like in that context. I could look up the Amazon reviews... but a lot of them will also be written by white folk who are no better prepared than myself to spot that stuff. (Going back to a previous example, "Striped Pyjamas" was pretty popular among folk with a superficial knowledge of the Holocaust - I certainly didn't see the problems with it until they were pointed out to me.)

If I want to judge for sure whether White Author has done a good job of writing about Aboriginal folk, I need to go looking specifically for Aboriginal perspectives on their book. That takes a fair bit of time and effort - and I still have to pick 29 more books for this curriculum. Wouldn't it be a lot simpler if I just started with a book from an author whose background guarantees that they will know the basics of this setting?

 

[Stella_Omega]

There's the question of whether or not your daughter understood what her teacher was saying.

Also the question of whether or not her teacher really understood what she was saying.

That being said-- I have certainly seen this attitude around, more and more, and not just in the area of race. I consider myself a social justice activist, meaning I think it's important for people to see themselves as part of the main stream of this culture-- portrayed in fulness just as the white, fully abled, male norm is portrayed, in all its variety and glory

But there are people who have become known derisively as 'social justice warriors" and I get shit from them for being too easygoing. I get the message, that people want what they want. But I guess-- extreme times breed extreme nuts.

 

[sr71plt]

If I want to judge for sure whether White Author has done a good job of writing about Aboriginal folk, I need to go looking specifically for Aboriginal perspectives on their book.

And/or you could check on the extent to which Aboriginal folk were consulted in the writing of the book.

 

[Bramblethorn]

And/or you could check on the extent to which Aboriginal folk were consulted in the writing of the book.

Good thought, if that information is available. (One would also want to know which Aboriginal folk, mind; that's a very broad umbrella.)

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

How about Asian orchestras that perform Western music?

 

[ishtat]

I guess one way to look at this is: Let's suppose I'm a teacher trying to select a curriculum that represents a variety of different races and portrays them well.

I believe it's quite possible for an author to write outside their own experience and give a good representation of the subject - let's say, a white author writing about Australian Aboriginal characters in a remote community.

But I can't pick up their book and tell whether they've achieved this, because I'm a middle-class urban white Aussie and I don't know what "accurate" looks like in that context. I could look up the Amazon reviews... but a lot of them will also be written by white folk who are no better prepared than myself to spot that stuff. (Going back to a previous example, "Striped Pyjamas" was pretty popular among folk with a superficial knowledge of the Holocaust - I certainly didn't see the problems with it until they were pointed out to me.)

If I want to judge for sure whether White Author has done a good job of writing about Aboriginal folk, I need to go looking specifically for Aboriginal perspectives on their book. That takes a fair bit of time and effort - and I still have to pick 29 more books for this curriculum. Wouldn't it be a lot simpler if I just started with a book from an author whose background guarantees that they will know the basics of this setting?

Interesting example, and once again it is worth noting that the author who has written the most convincing story of white injustice to Australian Aborigines is our old friend Thomas Keneally (see post 26), who in 1972 published a semi fictional biography The Chant of Jimmy Blacksmith based on the life of the aboriginal murderer Jimmy Governor.

(Aboriginal Jimmy marries white woman, is mocked by wife's employers family. Jimmy kills half a dozen of them and a few more who try to prevent his escape. Jimmy gets caught and hanged - lots of angst - the end)

Keneally himself has expressed doubts whether he should have attempted this subject, but the reality is no Aboriginal writer has yet emerged half as capable as Keneally of authoring such a work.

The quality of the author was the critical factor in producing a significant work.

 

[Bramblethorn]

Keneally himself has expressed doubts whether he should have attempted this subject, but the reality is no Aboriginal writer has yet emerged half as capable as Keneally of authoring such a work.

"Capable" is a dangerous word...

Keneally attended a solid private school and went on to a tertiary education, at a time when Indigenous Australians simply didn't get those opportunities. He was making enough money and had enough free time to write several novels before winning the Miles Franklin two years running, which is a huge boost to somebody looking to concentrate on a full-time literary career.

We simply don't know how many Aboriginal wanna-be writers there might have been in that era with just as much innate talent and work ethic as Keneally, because they simply wouldn't have had the opportunity to demonstrate it.

And we need to be careful that we don't perpetuate that. As long as publishers know that the public are content to get their coverage of Indigenous topics from 'safe' established white authors, why would they take a chance on helping a young Indigenous author to start their career?

(I am not criticising Keneally for writing "Jimmy Blacksmith", BTW. I think he's a good guy, and in that day and age, the book was quite likely a good thing for Indigenous recognition. But as he himself has acknowledged, it'd be problematic if he were to take the same approach today.)

 

[ishtat]

e it.

And we need to be careful that we don't perpetuate that. As long as publishers know that the public are content to get their coverage of Indigenous topics from 'safe' established white authors, why would they take a chance on helping a young Indigenous author to start their career?

(I am not criticising Keneally for writing "Jimmy Blacksmith", BTW. I think he's a good guy, and in that day and age, the book was quite likely a good thing for Indigenous recognition. But as he himself has acknowledged, it'd be problematic if he were to take the same approach today.)

With respect, I suggest your argument is PC claptrap. It may be inconvenient, but the fact is that no indigenous author has yet emerged who writes anywhere near as well as Keneally.

Sure it might be problematic today but the fact is that Jimmy Blacksmith was published 41 years ago when the world wasn't blighted by political correctness.

And I think I'll leave it at that.

 

[Bramblethorn]

With respect, I suggest your argument is PC claptrap.

Then feel free to debunk it. Go ahead and tell me about all the Aboriginal folk who've enjoyed the same level of opportunity that Keneally had, or provide reasons for why high-quality education and financial support aren't important in developing an up-and-coming novelist. But simply labelling it "PC claptrap" isn't an argument.

It may be inconvenient, but the fact is that no indigenous author has yet emerged who writes anywhere near as well as Keneally.

May I ask which Indigenous authors you've read, in order to form this judgement?

Sure it might be problematic today but the fact is that Jimmy Blacksmith was published 41 years ago when the world wasn't blighted by political correctness.

Term here meaning "considering the possibility that a person's background and social context may affect what they're able to achieve".

Funny thing is, Keneally himself has been repeatedly accused of PC-ness for his liberal attitudes towards Aboriginals and asylum seekers, and had the term been in popular use back in the early '70s it would quite likely have been levelled at him then for writing a book sympathetic to an Aboriginal who murders whites.

 

[R. Richard]

Just because a person, author or otherwise, is a part of a group doesn't mean that the person really understands said group. Said person may understand correct response and such, without an understanding of the entire process. An outsider, may not have the in depth knowledge that in insider does, but the outsider may have enough outside experience to contrast the group lifestyle with other group lifestyles and see why the interactions between groups are the way that they are, while a member of a group may well not.

 

[sr71plt]

Yeah, I'll agree with that. There's no blanket determination of who knows what about anything. Some are too close to the issues of whatever group they are in to be as objective about what's in play in/with their group as someone standing away from it and researching it closely and objectively. It all depends on the individual, I think.

 

[carlieplum]

AMEN! None of us knows what it's like to be a dog, but I hear "Call of the Wild" did pretty good.


Best. Comment. Ever.

 

[Stella_Omega]

None of us knows what it's like to be a dog, but I hear "Call of the Wild" did pretty good.

No dogs who have read it have said anything different. So they must think it's great.

 

[sr71plt]

No dogs who have read it have said anything different. So they must think it's great.

An even better comment to the supposed "best" comment.