That's racist!

[BuckyDuckman]

I have a daughter in college studying to become an elementary school teacher. She's part of a special program designed to produce teachers equipped for teaching in urban schools. In a children's Lit class, they were assigned approximately 30 kid books for various ages up to young adult with an odd criteria: the author's race must match the race of the main characters. According to her professor, a white person cannot possibly write about a black character without it being intrinsically racist. Has anyone else heard of this poppycock? Perhaps someone else believes it and can attempt to defend the professor's view?

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Its segregation isn't it? Separate but equal. New & Improved Jim Crow. Whites Only. Blacks Only.

Liberals will never see it for what it is.

 

[Tio_Narratore]

I pleased to be able to agree with Jim on this one, save for his post-script. Some liberals, myself included do see it for what it is. But those "liberals" who seem to think they have to listen to whatever someone who may have been oppressed at some point in the history of the world will never understand what's really going on. Unfortunately, it's been going on for a long time now, and promises only to get worse.

 

[R. Richard]

"According to her professor, a white person cannot possibly write about a black character without it being intrinsically racist."

The above statement is VERY racist.
Some time back I have a would be politician tell me, "I'm Asian. You're not Asian. You can't possibly understand Asians." I ask the idiot, "Tell me about Ashoka." He couldn't.

 

[elfin_odalisque]

I pleased to be able to agree with Jim on this one, save for his post-script. Some liberals, myself included do see it for what it is. But those "liberals" who seem to think they have to listen to whatever someone who may have been oppressed at some point in the history of the world will never understand what's really going on. Unfortunately, it's been going on for a long time now, and promises only to get worse.

Well put.

 

[8letters]

My guess is that the professor has a point, but expressed it very badly.

Could I write a story that would accurately capture what it was like to be a Jew growing up in Nazi Germany? No, because that is way different from my personal experience. However, if we say that only Jews that grew up in Nazi Germany can write books about a Jew growing up in Nazi Germany, then there wouldn't be any more books describing an important chapter in world history.

Could Michelle Obama write a better book about growing up in the slums in Haiti than a white woman who has worked with the poor in Haiti for the last ten years just because of her race? Obviously not. Everyone of the same race is not same and to pretend so is racist.

However, what if I, a straight male, decided that only book that my class was to read on what it is like to be a lesbian was the one written by Joe Straight Guy? I am implying that lesbians are such bad writers that they can't decently describe their own life experiences. For me as a straight guy to make that decision is a joke.

So if I am looking at two children's book about George Washington Carver, I would lean towards picking the book by the author with similar life experiences as George Washington Carver. IMHO, that author is more likely to provide insights into his life over someone who has nothing in common with George Washington Carver. My guess is that what is the professor was trying to get across.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

My guess is that the professor has a point, but expressed it very badly.

Could I write a story that would accurately capture what it was like to be a Jew growing up in Nazi Germany? No, because that is way different from my personal experience. However, if we say that only Jews that grew up in Nazi Germany can write books about a Jew growing up in Nazi Germany, then there wouldn't be any more books describing an important chapter in world history.

Could Michelle Obama write a better book about growing up in the slums in Haiti than a white woman who has worked with the poor in Haiti for the last ten years just because of her race? Obviously not. Everyone of the same race is not same and to pretend so is racist.

However, what if I, a straight male, decided that only book that my class was to read on what it is like to be a lesbian was the one written by Joe Straight Guy? I am implying that lesbians are such bad writers that they can't decently describe their own life experiences. For me as a straight guy to make that decision is a joke.

So if I am looking at two children's book about George Washington Carver, I would lean towards picking the book by the author with similar life experiences as George Washington Carver. IMHO, that author is more likely to provide insights into his life over someone who has nothing in common with George Washington Carver. My guess is that what is the professor was trying to get across.

And all lesbians think alike and have the same fund of experiences and feelings. I get it.

A better argument is: IF YOU WERE LOST IN THE AMAZON DO YOU WANT AN INDIAN TO LEAD YOU OUT, OR A PERFESSER WHO KNOWS ALL ABOUT AMAZON INDIANS? BLACK PERFESSERS ARE IN THAT CAMP.

 

[BuckyDuckman]

My guess is that the professor has a point, but expressed it very badly.

Could I write a story that would accurately capture what it was like to be a Jew growing up in Nazi Germany? No, because that is way different from my personal experience.

I disagree, because I'm willing to bet you (or another author) could conjure up accurate feelings that are analogous to the sensation.

Could Michelle Obama write a better book about growing up in the slums in Haiti than a white woman who has worked with the poor in Haiti for the last ten years just because of her race? Obviously not. Everyone of the same race is not same and to pretend so is racist.

However, according to the professor, the white woman's book would automatically be racist because the author wasn't Haitian.

So if I am looking at two children's book about George Washington Carver, I would lean towards picking the book by the author with similar life experiences as George Washington Carver. IMHO, that author is more likely to provide insights into his life over someone who has nothing in common with George Washington Carver. My guess is that what is the professor was trying to get across.

There's an implied sense of authenticity if the author shares background of their characters. I'll even allow that perhaps that shared history can provide extra insight not available to people outside the sub-culture.

Hell, I'll even give the professor the benefit of the doubt and suggest s/he is making that requirement as way to force the students to expose themselves to different authors.

HOWEVER, suggesting a book is automatically racist because its author doesn't share the same ethnic background as the characters, to me, is a racist comment. As authors we CAN write accurately outside our personal experiences. Additionally, I take offense at judging a book by the color of the author's skin instead of its content.

 

[hylas_]

According to her professor, a white person cannot possibly write about a black character without it being intrinsically racist

If that's really what the professor said, then it's clearly bullshit.

HOWEVER.

I think it makes a lot of sense to consider an author's ethnicity when reading about the experiences of people of colour. There is a long, ugly history of always tackling everything from a white (male, heterosexual, able-bodied, cis-gendered) perspective. This is problematic for a number of reasons, but mainly because it silences people of colour.

But there are plenty of authors of asian/african/latino/whatever heritage. Why not read their books when we want to know about the experiences of people of asian/african/latino/whatever heritage?

There are plenty of white people who explore an "exotic" culture, and then feel inspired to write about it. Sure, go ahead and do that, if you like; everybody can obviously do whatever they want. But as a teacher, I would certainly choose a book written by a person from said culture above a book written by an outsider about said culture, especially a white outsider. Looking around, there is no dearth of white voices, speaking of white experiences. There is, in my opinion, a dearth of any other perspective.

An important aspect of not being racist is to know when to shut up, and let people of colour take the mic.
Dear white person: yes, your experiences matter. But they're not always the most relevant ones.

 

[SecondCircle]

I guess things depend on what it is you're writing.

But I think anytime we pay this much attention to race, we're being sort of racist ourselves. When it becomes such a deal as "hey he's white or black, he can't write about the other color! How does he know what being that color is like?"

...then you've just drawn a line of segregation.

It does make sense to get the experience from someone who has experienced it. But then, you kinda just wiped out most of fiction's credibility.

There are differences between races when it comes to their specific heritage and culture. And we can never ignore this, I think. Don't think we should, we are different in many ways and that's fine. But really? Why is it racist for a black person to write from a white person's perspective? I'd never get defensive and be like "he has no idea what it's like to be white!"

Is race really such a coveted identifier that we get so defensive about it? I occasionally write from a woman's perspective, and no woman has ever really flamed me for it. Few have offered some advice on what's more believable, but they didn't get their panties in a wad. (Zing).

Technically, if we write from any perspective or character that is not us, does that make us full of shit? I mean yeah if the piece was heavily loaded with culture or something, an Asian American might be more fit to write an Asian culture type story, but I wouldn't say that a black woman couldn't do it too if she was knowledgeable about the subject.

So basically, though there are obvious cultural differences between races, there shouldn't be a line drawn between them like that. It sorta drives us further apart.

 

[R. Richard]

I collect 50s, 60s music. Perhaps the best 50s, 60s expression of the 'black experience, was the songs of Lieber and Stoller.

Jerome "Jerry" Leiber and Mike Stoller were white, Jewish American songwriting and record producing partners. Stoller was the composer and Leiber the lyricist. Their most famous songs include "Hound Dog", "Jailhouse Rock", "Don't", "Kansas City", "Stand By Me" (with Ben E. King), and "On Broadway" (with Barry Mann and Cynthia Weil), "Young Blood", "Searchin'", "Yakety Yak" Love Me", "Loving You", "Don't", "Jailhouse Rock", and "King Creole."

You don't have to be one to understand what it is to be one.

 

[TxRad]

Music is more about feelings than facts.

But then again, whose facts are we talking about. If what you write is accurate then what does it matter your skin color?

 

[BuckyDuckman]

It does make sense to get the experience from someone who has experienced it. But then, you kinda just wiped out most of fiction's credibility.

AMEN! None of us knows what it's like to be a dog, but I hear "Call of the Wild" did pretty good.

Technically, if we write from any perspective or character that is not us, does that make us full of shit?

I think it makes a lot of sense to consider an author's ethnicity when reading about the experiences of people of colour. There is a long, ugly history of always tackling everything from a white (male, heterosexual, able-bodied, cis-gendered) perspective. This is problematic for a number of reasons, but mainly because it silences people of colour.

An important aspect of not being racist is to know when to shut up, and let people of colour take the mic.

I'm sensitive about the point of silencing other voices. We shouldn't do that. And, if we want to learn about another point of view, we need to see work written from that point of view that's authentic.

However, who, when and where does the judgment of "authentic?" (JBJ, of course, LOL) IF we begin with the premise that we should dismiss all media that crosses ethnic boundaries without considering its content (hell, and even its intent), then aren't we throwing out the baby with the bathwater?

As an author of a certain gender, a particular nationality, brought up inside of this church by a family unit that may or may not have included both a father and a mother . . . I continue my objection to the original premise!

Setting that objection aside: I would like to find a way to support the professor. My best guess? It's a shortcut way of pushing the students in the correct direction. My concern? The professor is as racist as they come in a liberal, politically correct manner that we should, of course, value and esteem.

 

[3113]

Then again, not all writers are good writers....

According to her professor, a white person cannot possibly write about a black character without it being intrinsically racist. Has anyone else heard of this poppycock? Perhaps someone else believes it and can attempt to defend the professor's view?

I'd like to know exactly what the professor said and their reasoning before passing judgement on this. On the surface, yes, it's bullshit to say it can't possibly be done--blanket statements are stupid, right? Two points however, that offer the statement some validity:

(1) Given that this is for urban schools, it would certainly be an issue with the kids and parents if the authors of stories of black inner city children that they were being given to read (must read!) were not black ("Why was a white author's story about a black child given to my kid over a black author's story of a black child?"). So maybe this is just a quick and dirty way for the professor to impress on teachers not to do that and cause issues.

(2) Books about black kids (or anyone not of the author's race/sex/class, etc.) written by non-black (not the same race/sex/class) authors can be racist (little black Sambo, anyone?). In fact, there is a now infamous, self-published e-hunger-games-esque e-book by a white author with a black heroine. It is blatantly racist, yet the author is clueless as to why, and why readers of all colors are so upset with it and her. There is a valid case to be made that writers can be blind to their own biases and prejudices, and that such can come out unwittingly when they write about other races/religions/gender/classes of people.

So maybe the professor doesn't want the teacher taking the chance of giving the kids a book written by a bad writer who does put forth racist elements.

 

[3113]

...but the invisible man should still be read

Just to add, we should also remember that the teacher is talking to teachers, not writers. And, as I said, he might be trying to give them a rule to follow to avoid trouble with parents, etc.

That said, I do believe he is behind the times. We have a lot more interracial couples. So a white mom could easily write about her bi-racial daughter, who most would consider black, and how would that mom's little kid's story of her daughter's day at the park be racist? Ditto a black dad writing about his half-latino child. And many authors were raised among those not of their own race/religion/gender, etc. and can create perfectly realistic, believable and non-bigoted/bias characters of other races/religions/cultures/genders. This has always been so. And it's ridiculous to think it can't be done.

Of course, there are parents and teachers and movies and books still giving kids a lot of stupid ideas about those of different races, religions, etc. But the reality that these kids are growing up with is giving them other perspectives. It used to be that a white child would grow up among whites. Now, however, that child will grow up not only among those of other races, go to school and church and summer camp with them, but might, themselves, have a step-parent who is of another race and bi-racial siblings, etc.

The old rules about who can write what and be or not be racist becomes less valid when not only the writer but the readers recognize only characters, not their race. We are closer to it not mattering...closer, but not there yet, alas. (Remember how a few stupid white readers were all upset that a Hunger Game's character was black in the film, saying they could no longer like her because of that--and yet she'd been described as such in the book? Yes, racism is alive and well, and the "Invisible Man" should still be read....).

 

[THROBBS]

having biases is to be human.

being racist, is being stubbornly ignorant.

 

[DeYaKen]

I have a daughter in college studying to become an elementary school teacher. She's part of a special program designed to produce teachers equipped for teaching in urban schools. In a children's Lit class, they were assigned approximately 30 kid books for various ages up to young adult with an odd criteria: the author's race must match the race of the main characters. According to her professor, a white person cannot possibly write about a black character without it being intrinsically racist. Has anyone else heard of this poppycock? Perhaps someone else believes it and can attempt to defend the professor's view?

The logical extension of this is that no man can write a female character without being intrinsically sexist, and vice versa. Reading many Lit stories you might say that was true. However, the literary world is littered with authors who write cross gender. When reading Silas Marner does the teacher really expect his students to see it as sexist propaganda?

 

[lovecraft68]

Its popularly called political correctness.

What it really is, is "white guilt". The GB is rampant with it especially during the Martin case.

 

[Handley_Page]

According to her professor, a white person cannot possibly write about a black character without it being intrinsically racist.
. . .

As seen so far, it's utter rubbish.
He's denying the author (regardless of race, colour, creed or whatever) the ability to do some sensitive and meaningful research as to the problems with a character who is not the same colour as the author.

My guess is that the professor has a point, but expressed it very badly.

Could I write a story that would accurately capture what it was like to be a Jew growing up in Nazi Germany? No, because that is way different from my personal experience. However, if we say that only Jews that grew up in Nazi Germany can write books about a Jew growing up in Nazi Germany, then there wouldn't be any more books describing an important chapter in world history.

I disagree, because I'm willing to bet you (or another author) could conjure up accurate feelings that are analogous to the sensation.

However, according to the professor, the white woman's book would automatically be racist because the author wasn't Haitian.

HOWEVER, suggesting a book is automatically racist because its author doesn't share the same ethnic background as the characters, to me, is a racist comment. As authors we CAN write accurately outside our personal experiences. Additionally, I take offense at judging a book by the color of the author's skin instead of its content.

I believe that there is a case to argue that the sentiments themselves are 'racist', although I reckon that word is all too often taken out of context (but what do I know; I'm white and English)

If that's really what the professor said, then it's clearly bullshit.

HOWEVER.

I think it makes a lot of sense to consider an author's ethnicity when reading about the experiences of people of colour.

There are plenty of white people who explore an "exotic" culture, and then feel inspired to write about it. Sure, go ahead and do that, if you like; everybody can obviously do whatever they want.

What bugs me are these twee phrases, like "persons of colour".
And
I believe that a competent author can put his/her/its reader into wherever context is desired.
Note the word 'competent'.
If I read an old 'gangster' novel of the 50's I don't expect the author to have been a bloody gangster, do you?

 

[BuckyDuckman]

So, I called my daughter today and quizzed her for more information about this professor's statements. For whatever it's worth, the professor happens to be a white, female teaching a course about ethnic diversity as represented in children's literature. She has apparently researched the concept and written extensively about it.

3113 probably had the best take on the professor's intentions. The prof's reasoning is multi-faceted and in no particular order includes:

Teachers should be aware of unconscious messages they send based on the material they select.

As long as book (and we're talking children's literature here) includes the influences of an "ethnic" person, meaning non-white, it is okay. For example, maybe it was written by a white person, but illustrated by a person of color.

It doesn't matter if the book is about multi-ethnic topics or not. As my daughter explained, it could be a story about a bunny rabbit who has lost its favorite toy, but to qualify, either the author or the artist must be ethnic.

Ultimately, it now comes across as a huge C.Y.A. kind of statement perhaps motivated by white guilt or an effort to remain politically correct.

 

[sr71plt]

I quite agree that only bunny rabbits should write children's books about bunny rabbits.

 

[3113]

What it really is, is "white guilt". The GB is rampant with it especially during the Martin case.

Funny, I felt no white guilt at all about the Martin case. Just horrified that a young kid was needlessly killed. Shouldn't people have been upset that this situation occurred and a young man died?

Ultimately, it now comes across as a huge C.Y.A. kind of statement perhaps motivated by white guilt or an effort to remain politically correct.

It might not be either. It might be that the professor is making sure that teachers dealing with urban kids and parents don't get accused of racism. That they are protect themselves from that and from how it can derail their class and their teaching. It may be a very useful thing for teachers in that situation to do.

Also, it's easy to "poo-poo" and ignore this by throwing around words like "PC" and "White Guilt"--which essentially like someone calling you racist. They toss that word in there to imply what you're saying is prejudicial and should be ignored. But there are writers who write about other religions/cultures/genders/races in ways that are racist and prejudicial.

So I think we can disagree with the professor without going into outrage mode and end up throwing out the baby with the bathwater. Just because the professor's blanket statement (being a blanket statement) isn't totally and always correct doesn't mean that it's never correct. Or that we should totally ignore it, or take it personally.

 

[emap]

Honestly I'm not sure which is worse, teachers needing to make sure that the books they give to grade school kids needs ethnic persons as part of the writing process of the book, or that people will actually bother to fucking look it up later to complain about.

 

[slyc_willie]

Racism is a touchy subject that gets a lot of people's ire up. I think, as has been mentioned above, that the professor had reasons of authenticity when stating that authors of works about minorities should be minorities themselves. We don't know what the professor's actual words were, we only have Bucky's second-hand account.

Personally, I hate terms like "minority" and "people of color," but if they're used to make a point, so be it. I'd rather use the term ethnicity. Now, what I infer from Bucky's original post is that the professor is singling out books in which ethnicity is a central issue. If that is the case, then certainly, the author's ethnicity in relation to that of principle characters would make a difference. I can research all I want about how to be a professional beekeeper, but unless I actually am one, I'm not going to get all the nuances down, and chances are, that failing will be reflected, at least at some point, in anything I write about the issue.

The same basic logic applies here. I have had, throughout my life, numerous friends of other ethnicities. Black, Asian, Hispanic, whatever. I've had some very frank discussions with them now and then, because I am always fascinated with how other people think and feel. I feel that I could write a story from the perspective of a particular ethnicity and for the most part, it would pass muster. But if I were to try to tell the story of a black man growing up in, say, the 1950s and 60s, I seriously doubt I possess the required frame of reference to adequately capture all the little details. My personal experience, my family history, is almost exclusively Caucasian. One side of my family is Dutch, the other English. Can't get more "white" than that.

So I can see where the professor is coming from. In certain instances, an author's ethnicity in relation to that of his or her main characters can be incredibly relevant.

sr71 posted above something about bunny rabbits only writing books about bunny rabbits. I get the gist of his sarcasm in this context. If I was going to write a straightforward kid's book, I doubt my ethnicity would come into question if I had a black kid, an Asian kid, and a Latino kid in the book. The situations within would be simplistic, and applicable to anyone. But in the context of writing from a particular point of view, with the background of societal prejudices and norms having direct and profound impact on the characters because of their ethnicity, the situation changes. It ceases to be universal and becomes very particular.

I'm not going to say "only black men should write about black men," or whatever, but I think for the most part, if a writer without personal insight into an ethnic culture of which he or she is not part attempts to write in detail about that culture, there will be some failings. There will be a lot of failings.

Lastly -- and I think this needs to be pointed out -- the quality, depth, or accuracy of a novel will come deeply into question, and will, I think, automatically suffer, if it is learned by the general public that its central subject matter -- a certain ethnic point of view -- was written by someone NOT of that ethnicity. Quality, unfortunately, is often determined by authenticity, even if it is just perceived authenticity.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Racism is a touchy subject that gets a lot of people's ire up. I think, as has been mentioned above, that the professor had reasons of authenticity when stating that authors of works about minorities should be minorities themselves. We don't know what the professor's actual words were, we only have Bucky's second-hand account.

Personally, I hate terms like "minority" and "people of color," but if they're used to make a point, so be it. I'd rather use the term ethnicity. Now, what I infer from Bucky's original post is that the professor is singling out books in which ethnicity is a central issue. If that is the case, then certainly, the author's ethnicity in relation to that of principle characters would make a difference. I can research all I want about how to be a professional beekeeper, but unless I actually am one, I'm not going to get all the nuances down, and chances are, that failing will be reflected, at least at some point, in anything I write about the issue.

The same basic logic applies here. I have had, throughout my life, numerous friends of other ethnicities. Black, Asian, Hispanic, whatever. I've had some very frank discussions with them now and then, because I am always fascinated with how other people think and feel. I feel that I could write a story from the perspective of a particular ethnicity and for the most part, it would pass muster. But if I were to try to tell the story of a black man growing up in, say, the 1950s and 60s, I seriously doubt I possess the required frame of reference to adequately capture all the little details. My personal experience, my family history, is almost exclusively Caucasian. One side of my family is Dutch, the other English. Can't get more "white" than that.

So I can see where the professor is coming from. In certain instances, an author's ethnicity in relation to that of his or her main characters can be incredibly relevant.

sr71 posted above something about bunny rabbits only writing books about bunny rabbits. I get the gist of his sarcasm in this context. If I was going to write a straightforward kid's book, I doubt my ethnicity would come into question if I had a black kid, an Asian kid, and a Latino kid in the book. The situations within would be simplistic, and applicable to anyone. But in the context of writing from a particular point of view, with the background of societal prejudices and norms having direct and profound impact on the characters because of their ethnicity, the situation changes. It ceases to be universal and becomes very particular.

I'm not going to say "only black men should write about black men," or whatever, but I think for the most part, if a writer without personal insight into an ethnic culture of which he or she is not part attempts to write in detail about that culture, there will be some failings. There will be a lot of failings.

Lastly -- and I think this needs to be pointed out -- the quality, depth, or accuracy of a novel will come deeply into question, and will, I think, automatically suffer, if it is learned by the general public that its central subject matter -- a certain ethnic point of view -- was written by someone NOT of that ethnicity. Quality, unfortunately, is often determined by authenticity, even if it is just perceived authenticity.

^^^^unpaid non-attorney spokesperson for the white race, a monolithic culture like all the others.