Thatcher is dead.

[dougsan]

An apology for all the typos in my last. My wife and I lived in Northern Wales off and on from 78 to 82. My wife is Welsh and would never take out US citizenship because she would have to deny Britain. We both have strong memories of the unemployment and desperation from about 79 to 81. We believed at the time it was Lady Thatcher's forced changes which made unemployment worse at first and then much better. Your economy sucks at the moment but can you really blame the PM from so long ago?

 

[islandman]

You were obviously unaware that you were living in one of the most affluent areas of the country, cushioned from the effects of Tory economic policy. If you had ventured further north you would have seen the deprivation that generated the misery and anger that has fuelled this thread over the past day.

My husband lived in Sheffield in the 80s and once went on a visit to see someone in London during that time. He said tonight that it was like seeing technicolor after black and white - prosperity, wealth, activity, people rushing around because they had a purpose, employment, hope, opportunity. Contrast that with South Yorkshire at the time - mile after mile of empty factories and steel mills, queues of miserable men and women at the unemployment office chasing non-existent work.

If Margaret Thatcher's policies of slash and burn to make the economy more efficient at a lower cost had actually worked, then the misery she caused through those policies might be mitigated. But the fact is they failed. Unemployment is still high, our banking system has been ransacked by those who were supposed to govern it, we have no manufacturing base, and the utilities that she took out of public ownership are now owned by non UK companies who give us the same poor service we had before at a significantly higher cost.

As I said previously, I was 7 years-old at the time, so that sort of thing was beyond my ability to comprehend.

But I do recall a trip to Birmingham once....what a grey, dark place that was. Even the sky was grey the entire time we were there.

 

[LallyH]

I can't finish reading posts, I am so angry.

Lady Thatcher, IMO, did what had to be done, but she did not do it gently.

Unlike you, I did bother to finish reading your post. I am glad for you that your country was helped by your leader.

Your last statement, though, is laughable. I can only assume that you did not read to the end of my post, either.

And if you did and still think your statement is correct, even though it is not based on actual experience (unlike mine) then continuing this conversation is pointless.

 

[Sean]

An apology for all the typos in my last. My wife and I lived in Northern Wales off and on from 78 to 82. My wife is Welsh and would never take out US citizenship because she would have to deny Britain. We both have strong memories of the unemployment and desperation from about 79 to 81. We believed at the time it was Lady Thatcher's forced changes which made unemployment worse at first and then much better. Your economy sucks at the moment but can you really blame the PM from so long ago?

The movement from a production to a service economy and the housing bubble and crash are DIRECTLY attributable to Thatcher's policies.

As I said previously, I was 7 years-old at the time, so that sort of thing was beyond my ability to comprehend.

But I do recall a trip to Birmingham once....what a grey, dark place that was. Even the sky was grey the entire time we were there.

It hasn't changed much.

 

[dolf]

But I do recall a trip to Birmingham once....what a grey, dark place that was. Even the sky was grey the entire time we were there.

don't go north. never go north!

 

[unregistered]

 

[Sean]

The fact is Socialism in Britain failed, the good lady pointed it out in no uncertain terms, and then took actions to save her countrymen from the consequences of their own stupidity before they were able to totally destroy the nation. You unappreciative bastards ought to be thankful she came along when she did.

Five million unemployed, the destruction of entire communities and the foundation for the deepest recession in British history. Not to mention the absolute destruction of everything that Britons held dear. Do fuck off, you pathetic little man.

 

[Sean]

A long, but excellent, analysis of the Thatcherite economic/ industrial policies and their effects. Thanks to Rosco for the link.
http://michael-hudson.com/2013/04/failed-privatizations-the-thatcher-legacy/

 

[KingOrfeo]

No, but the manifesto on which a political party bases its campaign, and upon which the voters make their choice, should be binding. And if that is an unfair burden to be placed on them - tough. It might make the bastards tell the truth when they're trying to persuade us to give them the well paid job, expense account, personal driver and executive perks. Because in essence, a political campaign is a job interview.

Put it this way - if I hire someone who tells me at the interview that they have a particular skill, and then it transpires that they don't and they lied just to get the job, they get fired. I suggest the same for politicians.

It will prevent another Nick Clegg/tuition fees rip off.

Well, of course, campaign promises are never binding, except in the sense that the voters can turn out a pol for breaking them (or for any other reasons that seem good to the voters). Why should they be binding? The world as it looks on the campaign trail is very different from the world as it looks from behind an elected official's desk -- often, because the official now knows things that he did not and could not know before taking office.

I agree fully that the LibDems are promise-breaking stinkypants, just making a general observation here.

 

[KingOrfeo]

Whole communities were destroyed and, the most lasting legacy of all, she fostered a "greed is good and fuck you I got mine" mentality that had never existed in this country before.

Never?! Oh, come on! Ever read a Dickens novel?! Or Thackeray, for that matter. And the UK, driven mainly by greed (seasoned with a bit of altruistic missionary impulse, I grant you), conquered itself a global empire most bloodily. (Clive was astounded by his own moderation in looting India; later British imperialists such as Rhodes were less moderate.)

I'm not comparatively-defending the U.S. here, we've always had the greed-is-good mentality and proclaimed it openly.

 

[KingOrfeo]

And now England--birthplace of the Industrial Revolution--- is basically The City, a bunch of Russian mobsters buying mansions near Hyde Park, and a whole lot of chavs dealing E's . . .

What are "E's"?

And, what are "chavs"?

 

[KingOrfeo]

I can't finish reading posts, I am so angry. Sean, the statistics you quote as reflecting Reagan's presidency are correct. But the job Regan did for the USA was too great to be measured. After the peanut farmer left office, the USA was a country mired in selfpity and fearful of the future. We were directionless. When we feel that way we don't spend money. When capatalists don't spend money their economy shuts down, as ours did. Regan stood up and addressed us as his children. He told us things were lousy but it was his job to worry about it, not ours. He said he would figure out the solution and we should relax. He then turned back on the lights Carter has turned off to "save money."

As dumb and stupid as it sounds, it's what he did. We relaxed and began spending money again. Spending money for the first time in years made us happy and we spent yet more money. The spending carried the USA out of despair. Ronald Regan saved our economy in just the way you'd expect a movie actor to do it, with smoke and mirrors and by treating us as loke children. Say what you will about the man, he did what had to be done at the time. Lady Thatcher, IMO, did what had to be done, but she did not do it gently.

Of course, not every economic slump can be ended by optimism. The one we're in now almost certainly cannot.

 

[KingOrfeo]

As I said previously, I was 7 years-old at the time, so that sort of thing was beyond my ability to comprehend.

But I do recall a trip to Birmingham once....what a grey, dark place that was. Even the sky was grey the entire time we were there.

OTOH, there's an old place where people go to dance the night away.

Wait . . . wrong Birmingham . . .

 

[KingOrfeo]

The fact is Socialism in Britain . . .

Has never been tried. (Social democracy is quite a different thing.)

 

[RobDownSouth]

I can't finish reading posts, I am so angry. Sean, the statistics you quote as reflecting Reagan's presidency are correct. But the job Regan did for the USA was too great to be measured. After the peanut farmer left office, the USA was a country mired in selfpity and fearful of the future. We were directionless. When we feel that way we don't spend money. When capatalists don't spend money their economy shuts down, as ours did. Regan stood up and addressed us as his children. He told us things were lousy but it was his job to worry about it, not ours. He said he would figure out the solution and we should relax. He then turned back on the lights Carter has turned off to "save money."

As dumb and stupid as it sounds, it's what he did. We relaxed and began spending money again. Spending money for the first time in years made us happy and we spent yet more money. The spending carried the USA out of despair. Ronald Regan saved our economy in just the way you'd expect a movie actor to do it, with smoke and mirrors and by treating us as loke children. Say what you will about the man, he did what had to be done at the time. Lady Thatcher, IMO, did what had to be done, but she did not do it gently.

Revisionist pap.

President Carter was hamstrung by high interest rates. High interest rates have a significant impact on business investment and keep huge numbers of people from buying homes.

President Reagan instituted policies that triggered a short, brutal recession than broke inflation's back. Give the man credit for that.

Then recall that he sold Stinger missiles to the Ayatollah.

Bottom line:
President Carter wasn't as bad as Dougsan makes him out to be, and
President Reagan wasn't as good as Dougsan makes him out to be.

 

[KingOrfeo]

Revisionist pap.

President Carter was hamstrung by high interest rates. High interest rates have a significant impact on business investment and keep huge numbers of people from buying homes.

President Reagan instituted policies that triggered a short, brutal recession than broke inflation's back. Give the man credit for that.

Then recall that he sold Stinger missiles to the Ayatollah.

Bottom line:
President Carter wasn't as bad as Dougsan makes him out to be, and
President Reagan wasn't as good as Dougsan makes him out to be.

Tear Down This Myth!

(Apparently unnecessary in Thatcher's case, however. I guess Brits are more easily disillusioned.)

 

[LallyH]

The world as it looks on the campaign trail is very different from the world as it looks from behind an elected official's desk -- often, because the official now knows things that he did not and could not know before taking office.

But that just makes the whole process a complete nonsense. If you're going to stand up and say quite clearly that, if voted into power, you will do 'X', then in my view it is your responsibility to find out that 'X' is possible. Because if the politicians don't know, then who the hell does?

Let's not forget that we're not talking about you or I suddenly deciding to stand for election. Our MPs are members of political parties who are either in government already or who are members of the opposition, also in government. They simply cannot claim that they didn't have the right information before they put their manifesto together, which is what made Nick Clegg's behaviour so reprehensible.

Your assertion isn't valid, IMO.

 

[unregistered]

 

[LallyH]

What are "E's"?

And, what are "chavs"?

E is short for ecstasy, the club drug. Chavs - think Jersey Shore,

 

[KingOrfeo]

But that just makes the whole process a complete nonsense. If you're going to stand up and say quite clearly that, if voted into power, you will do 'X', then in my view it is your responsibility to find out that 'X' is possible. Because if the politicians don't know, then who the hell does?

Let's not forget that we're not talking about you or I suddenly deciding to stand for election. Our MPs are members of political parties who are either in government already or who are members of the opposition, also in government. They simply cannot claim that they didn't have the right information before they put their manifesto together, which is what made Nick Clegg's behaviour so reprehensible.

Your assertion isn't valid, IMO.

Well, it's written from an American POV -- we often have outsiders seeking office.

I recall Clinton campaigning in 1992, excoriating the Bush Sr. Admin for extending most-favored-nation trading status to China regardless of their human-rights record -- and then, when he got into office, and presumably was confronted with some government-experts' figures showing how ending that status would affect the American economy, he went ahead and renewed it. No, he should not have promised (assuming he did promise, I'm not sure on that point) to end China's MFN status; OTOH, it probably was not a promise he should have kept.

 

[KingOrfeo]

Go back to Disneyland.

Bite your typing-fingers, I'm a Floridian! It's Walt Disney World, thank you very much!

 

[TildaS]

I quite liked the #ThatCherDead on twitter and loads of idiots thinking Cher had died

Don't remember her as a politician just a face but meh...... feel sad for her family and stuff, and some of the jokes go too far, but the project of getting hey ho the witch is dead to number one in the charts made me giggle a bit

 

[KingOrfeo]

...... feel sad for her family and stuff . . .

Good of you, but don't feel too said.

Neo-colonial offspring

In 1982 Mark Thatcher, the only son of Margaret and Denis Thatcher, competed in the Paris-Dakar Rally with minimal preparation. He and his support team (co-driver, Charlotte Verney, and their mechanic) ended up getting lost in the Sahara Desert for six days, resulting in a full-blown and highly embarrassing international rescue mission being launched. They were eventually found in the desert, 50 km from where they should have been, by an Algerian military plane. It was not the last time that he would manage to knock Mumsy off the front pages of the UK's newspapers.

The Saudi Arabian Government felt unable to place the multi-billion pound Al Yamama arms deal with Britain without going through a consultancy firm consisting of Mark Thatcher and an old school chum. "Working" for a small percentage, this resulted in a £30 million fee for Mark Thatcher's legendary -- if not mythical -- business skills, which principally consisted of being the Prime Minister's son.

In 2005 he plead guilty to his part in financing an attempted coup d'état in Equatorial Guinea. While, of course, a grateful nation can only applaud the ageing playboy's single-handed effort to restore the British Empire, for some reason the residents of South Africa and Guinea itself took a rather dimmer view. Thatcher was sentenced to a five year custodial sentence (suspended) and ordered to pay a half-million US dollar fine.

Carol Thatcher is the daughter of Margaret Thatcher. She is supposedly a journalist, but there is very little evidence of this in the UK press. She's been known to take the (gentle) piss out of her mama, allegedly. She has also been employed as a radio presenter despite having an obvious speech impediment.

That's Sir Mark Thatcher, yet; he inherited his father's baronetcy, which the old man apparently was awarded only to honor -- sorry, honour his wife.

 

[Sean Renaud]

Bite your typing-fingers, I'm a Floridian! It's Walt Disney World, thank you very much!

We're so so sorry for your unfortunate situation. As much as like enjoy reading you however I cannot turn off the Crazy Climate Contraption until a few of your fellow Floridians have drown. Apologies in advance.

 

[KingOrfeo]

We're so so sorry for your unfortunate situation. As much as like enjoy reading you however I cannot turn off the Crazy Climate Contraption until a few of your fellow Floridians have drown. Apologies in advance.

Just make sure you get Sun City.