Testing readers 'morality'

[pink_silk_glove]

There's a line in the story-not original by any means-where the MC's mother asks him point blank why she hasn't met the woman he's seeing, and she knows he's seeing someone because he doesn't come home some nights and even made up a name for her-when he's evasive, she reminds him that his father-who passed away two years ago-always told him if you have to lie about something, then you know you're wrong.

I didn't want to put that much detail here and bore people but there's a scene the best friend is asking him who he's seeing, he won't say, then the best friend makes a joke that its probable because she's ugly and he plays right up to it. That was part of the 'test' so to speak, is they both had times they could have come clean and lied, but once they realized they were now a serious couple, they were going to just drop it like "Yeah, so for six months we lief to your damn faces and played you, but..."

Again, I think that it's just in one of those categories where morality wrestling just isn't all that important to reader reactions. I do see your point, as in why should we be rooting for these deceitful people? Try putting that plot in Romance. I doubt that it would do well. Romance is kinda special, the morality matters there big time but for very different reasons. We need to have a HEA but only for characters who deserve HEA. If you don't give this you run a great risk of a poor score.

 

[AwkwardlySet]

@lovecraft68
What's funny about morality in general is that while most of humanity would agree on some tenets being universally accepted, much of the rest isn't. There is no such thing as universal moral values beyond the few most basic ones.
What I wanted to say is that, while I see what you meant with their relationship being immoral due to betrayal and deception, not everyone would agree with you in this case. There are those who would advocate pursuing what the heart (and loins) want, no matter the price. And even though I lean more towards your own view, I am not sure it's the right one.

 

[SimonDoom]

There's a line in the story-not original by any means-where the MC's mother asks him point blank why she hasn't met the woman he's seeing, and she knows he's seeing someone because he doesn't come home some nights and even made up a name for her-when he's evasive, she reminds him that his father-who passed away two years ago-always told him if you have to lie about something, then you know you're wrong.

I'm less certain of this. There's a difference between lying and concealing. I'm under no obligation to tell people, even people close to me, who I am dating. If they ask and I put them off in ways that might mislead them, I still don't think that's a big moral problem, because they have no right to ask me in the first place.

Agreed, if it's my best friend's mom, then I know there are potential problems, but as long as everybody is a consenting adult I think the same principle holds: there's nothing inherently immoral about getting it on with my best friend's mom, and he has no particular right to know about it. Lying is bad, but if i just put him off by saying "I don't want to talk about it" I don't think I've committed a grave moral breach. At the same time, it would be perfectly normal if my friend, on finding out, went apeshit and broke off the friendship, so I have to be aware that my actions may end the friendship. But, again: ending a friendship is not an immoral act, if my attachment to the mom is more important to me.

I haven't read your story yet. I assume it's one of the MILF Tails stories. The specific circumstances of the story would determine how immoral the action was.

 

[pink_silk_glove]

Agreed, if it's my best friend's mom, then I know there are potential problems, but as long as everybody is a consenting adult I think the same principle holds: there's nothing inherently immoral about getting it on with my best friend's mom, and he has no particular right to know about it. Lying is bad, but if i just put him off by saying "I don't want to talk about it" I don't think I've committed a grave moral breach.

I haven't read the story but going by lc68's comments, and the title of the story (it's revenge) the affair started very spitefully and vindictively. I think that's the issue that lc is driving at being 'immoral'. This is more than just "we like each other but they just wouldn't understand". From that point I can totally see what he means, that from a (general) moralistic view, these two characters should be tough to root for and given a more touchy category, this plot would likely not score so well, but who knows?

 

[RejectReality]

I get plenty of the head-scratching morality, ( Just got castigated for including anal in a story ) but I actually have more trouble with the opposite. I've got a simple little divorced Milf and son's friend story called "Pole Skills". Blowjob, titfuck, and my standard tease that it probably won't be the last time they have fun. The door to the room they're in is locked. The son is blacked out drunk. They're explicitly being quiet. The tease is that the son will be gone for a weekend with his father on a fishing trip. Good time to hook-up again with little chance of getting caught.

The suggestions for the follow-up? Fucking in the son's bed. Fucking while he's on the phone with his buddy. Shamelessly going to her bedroom and fucking her with the son home. Fucking right in front of him. Get her pregnant. The son catches them, is forced to watch, and has to clean up the creampie.

Jayzus...

I introduce a little sliver of immorality, and people jump straight to incestuous cuckolding impregnation.

 

[SimonDoom]

I haven't read the story but going by lc68's comments, and the title of the story (it's revenge) the affair started very spitefully and vindictively. I think that's the issue that lc is driving at being 'immoral'. This is more than just "we like each other but they just wouldn't understand". From that point I can totally see what he means, that from a (general) moralistic view, these two characters should be tough to root for and given a more touchy category, this plot would likely not score so well, but who knows?

I would invite LC to link to the story, because I don't think questions like these can be answered in the abstract; the details always matter. I would agree that starting a relationship out of spite to someone would be immoral.

 

[lovecraft68]

I'm less certain of this. There's a difference between lying and concealing. I'm under no obligation to tell people, even people close to me, who I am dating. If they ask and I put them off in ways that might mislead them, I still don't think that's a big moral problem, because they have no right to ask me in the first place.

Agreed, if it's my best friend's mom, then I know there are potential problems, but as long as everybody is a consenting adult I think the same principle holds: there's nothing inherently immoral about getting it on with my best friend's mom, and he has no particular right to know about it. Lying is bad, but if i just put him off by saying "I don't want to talk about it" I don't think I've committed a grave moral breach. At the same time, it would be perfectly normal if my friend, on finding out, went apeshit and broke off the friendship, so I have to be aware that my actions may end the friendship. But, again: ending a friendship is not an immoral act, if my attachment to the mom is more important to me.

I haven't read your story yet. I assume it's one of the MILF Tails stories. The specific circumstances of the story would determine how immoral the action was.

The funny thing about this topic is there's a legion of readers out there and as we all know, very few comment, so what we have for a feel of what they think is a small sample size.

But my backdoor to this thread would be the response of a larger number of a much smaller group of people (how many regulars are really here?) and see where they're at.

When I write, as much as I know many things we put here are far fetched to some degree, I always stop and ask myself "Is this real, what would happen if it were?" And I often write to what I think.

If you don't think banging your best friend since middle school's mother behind his back, and this started within one day of the mother's divorce being final BTW, is skeazy and dirty thing to do then I'm not sure I'd want you as a friend in real life. Got that Eddie Haskel vibe going there. (I can say that to you, you're a bit older than me and know who that is)

We often discuss the word taboo and how at this point when it comes to erotica it almost exclusively refers to incest. But we know the truth is many things are societal taboos. Not illegal, but 'frowned upon" sex with your mother in law is not illegal, its not incest, but tell me, in real life would you think "Yeah, that's cool?"

I think the LW crowd goes way too far with morality as far as fictional cheating stories, but will be the first one to say, yes, in real life, cheating is a shitty act committed by a shitty person. But now it seems that the other extreme exists where nothing seems to rub people wrong in a story at all.

So, my take here with enough posts to have a good sample isn't so much about 'morals' but either I write to try to gain more realistic reactions than others do, or at least look at it more closely than some do, or other people never think or care about it.

That's not wrong by any means, but is telling trait in the infamous erotica v porn v plausibility.

It also shows that there is far more concern here for scores, H's, top lists and whatever stats people can sweat over here takes priority in taking your own story seriously.

Like Ike and Turner I never do anything nice and easy and like to see what people think when thrown speedbumps, but the conversation of thinking beyond "Milf fucks young guy" doesn't really exist.

Means I did get an answer part of which is I guess I've reached a point where the game within the story is more intriguing to me than stat results, and to most other people.

Like I said in the OP, maybe this is what happens when you've reached the point you get bored and look for things beyond the story.

 

[SimonDoom]

To follow up on the last comment I made: I'm crystal clear in my own mind that I look at fantasy stories completely differently from the way I look at real events. I can enjoy stories with subversive and naughty, or even immoral, story lines in which characters do things I would never approve of in the real world. So the idea of evaluating a person's/character's actions by a moral standard have to be considered in this light.

 

[lovecraft68]

Okay, I rarely ever link any of my work, but seeing people may need more perspective than I can really give without going on and on.

Here is the link to the first one, meant as a stand alone

https://www.literotica.com/s/milf-tails-sweet-revenge-1

This is the sequel I decided to write because for some reason the characters stuck with me, and I wanted to play this out and see what people would think.

https://www.literotica.com/s/milf-tails-sweet-revenge-ch-02

If you want to skip part one here is a synopsis

Brett has always had a bit of a crush on the woman across the street, Lori, who happens to be his best friend's mom. Nothing more than he loves to look at her and has had some typical fantasies about her.

Lori's husband is a lawyer and a jack ass. When working one night Brett sees the husband out to dinner with a young sugar baby, mucking up with her. he struggles with whether or not to say anything, especially when the hsuband sees him and talks to him, trying to buy him off then threatening him. Brett has this thing with always "doing the right thing no matter what-this is meaningful to part 2-and decides to get pictures and show Lori who promptly tosses the husband and they divorce within a couple of months. Lori then shows up at the bar Brett works at and throws herself at him because she's always known he looks. The line near the end is he'll be her revenge she'll be his reward and he quickly wonders if they should say anything if they keep going and she says as long as its just fun, leave it be.

Part two starts a few months later.

 

[lovecraft68]

To follow up on the last comment I made: I'm crystal clear in my own mind that I look at fantasy stories completely differently from the way I look at real events. I can enjoy stories with subversive and naughty, or even immoral, story lines in which characters do things I would never approve of in the real world. So the idea of evaluating a person's/character's actions by a moral standard have to be considered in this light.

True, which is why I said that for me-stressing that-I blur those lines sometimes because I like to look at things that way-we all have our own style and motivation and that's mine, this time I wanted to see where other people sat with this. If what people see is hot sex and they got some spicy drama tossed in but its all good, so be it. I think I expected a bit more judgement.

 

[GuiltyCowboy]

The funny thing about this topic is there's a legion of readers out there and as we all know, very few comment, so what we have for a feel of what they think is a small sample size.

But my backdoor to this thread would be the response of a larger number of a much smaller group of people (how many regulars are really here?) and see where they're at.

When I write, as much as I know many things we put here are far fetched to some degree, I always stop and ask myself "Is this real, what would happen if it were?" And I often write to what I think.

If you don't think banging your best friend since middle school's mother behind his back, and this started within one day of the mother's divorce being final BTW, is skeazy and dirty thing to do then I'm not sure I'd want you as a friend in real life. Got that Eddie Haskel vibe going there. (I can say that to you, you're a bit older than me and know who that is)

We often discuss the word taboo and how at this point when it comes to erotica it almost exclusively refers to incest. But we know the truth is many things are societal taboos. Not illegal, but 'frowned upon" sex with your mother in law is not illegal, its not incest, but tell me, in real life would you think "Yeah, that's cool?"

I think the LW crowd goes way too far with morality as far as fictional cheating stories, but will be the first one to say, yes, in real life, cheating is a shitty act committed by a shitty person. But now it seems that the other extreme exists where nothing seems to rub people wrong in a story at all.

So, my take here with enough posts to have a good sample isn't so much about 'morals' but either I write to try to gain more realistic reactions than others do, or at least look at it more closely than some do, or other people never think or care about it.

That's not wrong by any means, but is telling trait in the infamous erotica v porn v plausibility.

It also shows that there is far more concern here for scores, H's, top lists and whatever stats people can sweat over here takes priority in taking your own story seriously.

Like Ike and Turner I never do anything nice and easy and like to see what people think when thrown speedbumps, but the conversation of thinking beyond "Milf fucks young guy" doesn't really exist.

Means I did get an answer part of which is I guess I've reached a point where the game within the story is more intriguing to me than stat results, and to most other people.

Like I said in the OP, maybe this is what happens when you've reached the point you get bored and look for things beyond the story.

And of course many readers enjoy reading stories with transgressive characters precisely because there are that. We need only the flimsiest excuse to stick with a character who’s of questionable morality. Very few people engage with stories for the morality.

And this is a site that explores sexuality too, which is very often predicated on the transgressive and the taboo. Relies on it to work.

 

[SimonDoom]

If you don't think banging your best friend since middle school's mother behind his back, and this started within one day of the mother's divorce being final BTW, is skeazy and dirty thing to do then I'm not sure I'd want you as a friend in real life. Got that Eddie Haskel vibe going there.

I know who Eddie Haskel is, but that was before my time. I'm not THAT old. As a kid, I was watching reruns of Gilligan's Island and The Munsters, not Leave it to Beaver. I don't even remember Leave it to Beaver being on at that point.

But to your point: I think your reaction would be a normal one if your friend did that. But imagine this scenario, like American Pie. Imagine that Finch was a close friend of Stifler, rather than Stifler being a comical, semi-adversarial figure. Imagine that the mom came on to Finch the way the mom did in the movie. If Finch gave into it, would you consider it a horrible moral breach? I wouldn't. An 18 year old guy having a chance to lose his virginity to a hot older woman? I think most 18 year old guys in that situation would say "yes." But it all depends on the circumstances and motives. If it's done with bad motives and there's a lot of intentional subterfuge, that's different. The details matter.

Regardless of what I think about it happening in real life, I can enjoy it, guilt-free, as a story.

 

[pink_silk_glove]

So, my take here with enough posts to have a good sample isn't so much about 'morals' but either I write to try to gain more realistic reactions than others do, or at least look at it more closely than some do, or other people never think or care about it.

...

Like I said in the OP, maybe this is what happens when you've reached the point you get bored and look for things beyond the story.

For me, I am always trying to get a reaction, always always always. I don't mean to antagonize or troll, but writing is conveying emotions through the page to the reader. Done at its best, the reader should be getting an emotional reaction, as strong as possible, whether it is a positive or a negative one, whether than emotion is joy, despair, relief, emptiness, bliss, rage, sweetness ... etc. In a longer story the reader should be going through a whole range of them.

I was talking to my beta reader over the phone and she was bawling in tears over the latest chapter that I'd sent her at the time. She was so upset at all of the troubles that had befallen the main character, and I was like fist pumping on the other end of the line and laughing, "Haha! Yes!!" and she asks me, "Why are you laughing when I'm in tears?" and I explained to her, "I'm not laughing at you or your tears. I'm laughing with joy because I made you feel something very strong. That's my job as a writer, to make you feel strong emotions and I did it! I really nailed it! (this time)"

So if you ever get bored with writing, perhaps remember, getting people to feel things intensely is a wonderful thing, and you'll probably want to do it again.

 

[lovecraft68]

I know who Eddie Haskel is, but that was before my time. I'm not THAT old. As a kid, I was watching reruns of Gilligan's Island and The Munsters, not Leave it to Beaver. I don't even remember Leave it to Beaver being on at that point.

But to your point: I think your reaction would be a normal one if your friend did that. But imagine this scenario, like American Pie. Imagine that Finch was a close friend of Stifler, rather than Stifler being a comical, semi-adversarial figure. Imagine that the mom came on to Finch the way the mom did in the movie. If Finch gave into it, would you consider it a horrible moral breach? I wouldn't. An 18 year old guy having a chance to lose his virginity to a hot older woman? I think most 18 year old guys in that situation would say "yes." But it all depends on the circumstances and motives. If it's done with bad motives and there's a lot of intentional subterfuge, that's different. The details matter.

Regardless of what I think about it happening in real life, I can enjoy it, guilt-free, as a story.

I watched Leave it to Beaver, well my grandmother did and I was stuck with it.

Never saw American Pie, I'll go for silly site gag movies like Naked Gun, Airplane etc, but not frat boy style stuff. I saw the first Porky's meaning....I basically saw every movie ever made in its genre.

I'll take your word for the analogy.

I like to read stories that make me think afterwards. "Yeah, hot, but jeez when you think about what they did and..." so I like to try to get people to do the same sometimes, not all the time.

Back in my Siblings with benefits series days readers would say "Megan is such a bitch!" and my thought would be "Why, yes, she is! Thank you!"

 

[lovecraft68]

For me, I am always trying to get a reaction, always always always. I don't mean to antagonize or troll, but writing is conveying emotions through the page to the reader. Done at its best, the reader should be getting an emotional reaction, as strong as possible, whether it is a positive or a negative one, whether than emotion is joy, despair, relief, emptiness, bliss, rage, sweetness ... etc. In a longer story the reader should be going through a whole range of them.

I was talking to my beta reader over the phone and she was bawling in tears over the latest chapter that I'd sent her at the time. She was so upset at all of the troubles that had befallen the main character, and I was like fist pumping on the other end of the line and laughing, "Haha! Yes!!" and she asks me, "Why are you laughing when I'm in tears?" and I explained to her, "I'm not laughing at you or your tears. I'm laughing with joy because I made you feel something very strong. That's my job as a writer, to make you feel strong emotions and I did it! I really nailed it! (this time)"

So if you ever get bored with writing, perhaps remember, getting people to feel things intensely is a wonderful thing, and you'll probably want to do it again.

Any reaction, is a good reaction and that includes tears, people enraged at what your character did, experiencing joy through the story etc..

 

[MillieDynamite]

I haven't a clue. But it is so logical to believe children are warped by sex, but made good citizens by being exposed to violence at a young age. Why else would mothers in Oklahoma allow their children to see movies with serial killers and monsters ripping people apart in an R-rated film, but not let them see an R-rated romcom because it makes them sex fends? I kid you not, my dad has heard that from some rednecks around these parts.

That's a good question. Follow up would be why can extreme violence happen to underage characters including rape, but it can remain here even after reports?

 

[SerenaSteeleMonroe]

I believe, and I think you folks will back me up on this, readers are amoral. They are not immoral or moral, they like what they like. They agree with the stories featuring their kinks depicted their way and dismiss (or worse) those they don't like or don't like how it is portrayed. It is what it is.

 

[mirafrida]

My takeaway from this thread is that while readers may be all over the map - in terms of their morality, motivations, preferences, reactions - the authors are equally as much

 

[lovecraft68]

I haven't a clue. But it is so logical to believe children are warped by sex, but made good citizens by being exposed to violence at a young age. Why else would mothers in Oklahoma allow their children to see movies with serial killers and monsters ripping people apart in an R-rated film, but not let them see an R-rated romcom because it makes them sex fends? I kid you not, my dad has heard that from some rednecks around these parts.

Well. come on, violence is a life skill and can protect you from all those perverts looking for sex.

 

[SerenaSteeleMonroe]

Well. come on, violence is a life skill and can protect you from all those perverts looking for sex.

I use violence to get my sex, well, BDSM violence at least.

 

[El Folo]

For another idea, you can put a wallet with some money in front of the reader. Will they return the wallet and the money? Or will they keep the money for themselves?

 

[Actingup]

I haven't a clue. But it is so logical to believe children are warped by sex, but made good citizens by being exposed to violence at a young age. Why else would mothers in Oklahoma allow their children to see movies with serial killers and monsters ripping people apart in an R-rated film, but not let them see an R-rated romcom because it makes them sex fends? I kid you not, my dad has heard that from some rednecks around these parts.

I think I might need to update my mental image of Oklahoma.

 

[SerenaSteeleMonroe]

Well, if it's a nice billfold, they'll keep both, sell your CC DC numbers on the dark web, hunt you down, and murder you so you can't report you're wallet stolen. Readers have no morals; they are amoral and form their opinions based on what suits their needs best.

 

[lovecraft68]

For another idea, you can put a wallet with some money in front of the reader. Will they return the wallet and the money? Or will they keep the money for themselves?

This is lit, no one pays for anything.

 

[MillieDynamite]

Oklahoma, where the wind comes sweepin' down the plain, And the wavin' wheat can sure smell sweet, When the wind comes right behind the rain...

I think I might need to update my mental image of Oklahoma.

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