Testing readers 'morality'

[lovecraft68]

As time goes on I find myself getting bored sometimes with writing and decide I want to play some kind of game with a story and see reader reaction.

A few weeks ago I published a story which was a sequel to one from a couple years ago. Won't go into a lot of details as to how and why etc, but a 21 year old has been having sex with his best friend's mother who is recently divorced, and she's also friends with the MC's mother. They've been sneaking around to avoid drama because it was supposed to be just hot sex, so why get into it?

The two then find they're falling in love and decide its time to say something...but then get caught by the son who flips out, goes and tells the MC's mother who flips out, lots of drama ensues.

But here's the game I was playing. We get a lot of moralists here (especially in LW) who apply real life "Man, that's fucked up" to fictional sex stories set up to where the 'fucked up' is part of the draw. What I wanted to see was this: would the readers call out the fact the the two main characters were totally, 100% wrong for even being together at the start, let alone months of lying to their loved ones. Or, would somehow, because the two were generally good people which was established in story one, and did love each other and were just in a no win scenario that the son/mother would never except.

In other words, would they be seen as sympathetic somehow, or would the readers take them to task? I played this to the hilt in the confrontation with the son and mother and in the end the son moves out while the mother begrudgingly accepts it because she doesn't want to lose her son. More emotion and drama than you'd expect in a milf story, but I enjoyed writing it. My personal take? They were wrong and they betrayed those close to them over what in the beginning was simply sex.

The reader reaction? IN the comments no one seemed to be against them, and in several feedbacks only one person said they were 'reprehensible' and the score is over 4.7 so not a lot of low votes.

So, is this a result of the way it was written? Are most people (outside of LW) able to put morality aside for entertainment? Or would they somehow think it was fine in real life?

Or, is this all meaningless and I really am just looking for ways to amuse myself and none of it really matters?

 

[Voyeurkenneth]

While I haven't read the story, I think it's generally fair that readers would want to side with your protagonist. Whose POV are you presenting the story from?

 

[lovecraft68]

While I haven't read the story, I think it's generally fair that readers would want to side with your protagonist. Whose POV are you presenting the story from?

It's written-as the first one is-from the guy's POV. he does have moments of knowing this is wrong, but he's enamored, first by lust, then love and he has mentioned saying something but his older lover keeps him from doing it.

In the part where his mother confronts him, she makes it a point to explain how someone his age isn't a match for a woman her age and he's been manipulated into lying, and I figured that insight might tip the readers to the "Yeah, this was wrong" but nope.

Guess if you toss in the word "love" people forgive a lot. IDK

 

[RetroFan]

I've encountered strange morality takes in the Incest Taboo category.

For example in one of my stories, a 40-year-old guy and his 19-year-old virgin half sister have sex, this following months of him perving on her (panty sniffing, up-skirting etc.) and him deflowering her was perfectly okay. However it apparently wasn't okay for them to have sex when the sister was having her period, and this attracted strong condemnation.

 

[lovecraft68]

I've encountered strange morality takes in the Incest Taboo category.

For example in one of my stories, a 40-year-old guy and his 19-year-old virgin half sister have sex, this following months of him perving on her (panty sniffing, up-skirting etc.) and him deflowering her was perfectly okay. However it apparently wasn't okay for them to have sex when the sister was having her period, and this attracted strong condemnation.

Yeah, the I/T crowd has some weird 'squicks' for a category that's by nature pretty extreme.

One that sticks out to me is how I got multiple comments condemning the fact the brother and sister were toking up. Sis can suck her brother's cock, but not puff on a bong, got it.

 

[spiderboi]

It's written-as the first one is-from the guy's POV. he does have moments of knowing this is wrong, but he's enamored, first by lust, then love and he has mentioned saying something but his older lover keeps him from doing it.

In the part where his mother confronts him, she makes it a point to explain how someone his age isn't a match for a woman her age and he's been manipulated into lying, and I figured that insight might tip the readers to the "Yeah, this was wrong" but nope.

Guess if you toss in the word "love" people forgive a lot. IDK

I don't know, I can forgive a lot in fiction that I would never support in real life. In fiction, I can root for a murderer to get away with it and escape to run off into the sunset with his lover. In real life, that guy needs to see justice lol

So, I can understand why readers wouldn't call out the main romantic pairing's wrongdoings. For what it's worth, I have a stick up my ass with age gaps, so from what you've described, I don't think the any wrongdoing was on the young guy's part. I would blame the older person for manipulating the inexperienced younger person and betraying her friend's trust by seducing her son. But if it's well-written enough and I like the characters, I can get over my real-world misgivings and wouldn't go out of my way to condemn it in a comment. It definitely doesn't mean that I support it in real life.

Having said that, there could be something in that young men being taken advantage of by older people is historically not seen as particularly damaging to the young man in question, so maybe your audience is made up of people like that who don't see the dynamic as problematic in and of itself.

 

[lovecraft68]

I don't know, I can forgive a lot in fiction that I would never support in real life. In fiction, I can root for a murderer to get away with it and escape to run off into the sunset with his lover. In real life, that guy needs to see justice lol

So, I can understand why readers wouldn't call out the main romantic pairing's wrongdoings. For what it's worth, I have a stick up my ass with age gaps, so from what you've described, I don't think the any wrongdoing was on the young guy's part. I would blame the older person for manipulating the inexperienced younger person and betraying her friend's trust by seducing her son. But if it's well-written enough and I like the characters, I can get over my real-world misgivings and wouldn't go out of my way to condemn it in a comment. It definitely doesn't mean that I support it in real life.

Having said that, there could be something in that young men being taken advantage of by older people is historically not seen as particularly damaging to the young man in question, so maybe your audience is made up of people like that who don't see the dynamic as problematic in and of itself.

I used the age gap itself as well. Had the mother drop a line that most people don't think of in a milf/cub scnario. "You want to get married and be Josh's step father? Ever think of that?" Went down the well of "She closed up the shop, you okay with never having kids?"

I really pulled out all the stops on trying to dose reality into it. People commented it gave the story some angst and drama, but nothing in the negative.

Ah, well, who knows? Maybe next time I'll write something I think is fine and then someone will rip it up. Lit is always consistently inconsistent

 

[MillieDynamite]

Readers are diverse and varied, with some holding strong and unusual views.

 

[lovecraft68]

Starting this thread made me think about a story I wrote back in 2013 (Jeez) which was a romance between an older man and young woman. I got a few "Typical old creep gets the hot girl" or "Yeah, she only wanted him for his money"

And this was a flat out romance.

But another romance (2012) older woman young guy went over with no negativity at all.

Goes back to that Cougar/Cub =hot Older guy/younger woman= creepy double standard.

 

[SimonDoom]

Readers come in all different flavors, but my sense is that outside LW readers, generally if not always, are willing to accept a situation in a fictional story that they would not accept in real life, especially if it's written well enough that it can immerse them in your fictional world.

 

[RetroFan]

Readers come in all different flavors, but my sense is that outside LW readers, generally if not always, are willing to accept a situation in a fictional story that they would not accept in real life, especially if it's written well enough that it can immerse them in your fictional world.

The Loving Wives readers most usually will declare war on cuckolding, humiliation, women cheating without consequence or (heaven forbid) winning as a result of infidelity, wimps and simps and the like. They will also go after sexual content they don't personally like, storylines that don't appeal to them and stories that feature cheating girlfriends, de facto spouses or involve couples already separated, but not with the same vigour.

Sometimes however they will attack really bizarre aspect of the story, for example I was accused in one LW story of being transphobic. The source of the problem was a paragraph late in the story, where an Australian family find an old bottle washed up in Devonport, Tasmania that contains a letter written a passenger on the Titanic 112 years earlier. In the family the oldest daughter is a girl named Poppy, who lives her life through social media and is always on her phone, wanting to become an influencer. In the story Poppy's parents are concerned about their daughter's online activities, including that she recently had a pedicure and sent pictures of her bare feet to some online influencers who claimed to be transgender, the mother and father obviously concerned that these guys are straight male perverts using the ruse of being gay or trans to get feet pictures from unsuspecting 18 and 19-year-old girls.

It seemed an odd thing for a reader to get upset about, but there you go.

 

[NotWise]

Conflicted morals 'R' us, could be a handle for Lit readers, and I don't even know enough about LW readers to comment on them.

I have a story in Mature with a mitt full of positive comments about flawed characters. They aren't physically flawed. They don't have psychiatric issues. They're morally, ethically flawed. I think it's one of my more well-written stories. Despite that, its score stays well south of the red H.

Maybe it's a little low on sex and there's interrupted sex, but I think the characters' moral flaws stick in too many craws. There's a scene I could change that would probably make it go down more easily, but I like the story the way it is.

We talk now and then about tension as an important aspect of erotic stories. I think the readers' moral conflicts are a big part of the tension--especially for stories in categories where there's an inherent edge: I/T, E/V and NC/R come to mind. On the other hand, for stories in categories without that inherent edge (EC is probably the best example) it's harder to build that tension.

 

[lovecraft68]

Conflicted morals 'R' us, could be a handle for Lit readers, and I don't even know enough about LW readers to comment on them.

I have a story in Mature with a mitt full of positive comments about flawed characters. They aren't physically flawed. They don't have psychiatric issues. They're morally, ethically flawed. I think it's one of my more well-written stories. Despite that, its score stays well south of the red H.

Maybe it's a little low on sex and there's interrupted sex, but I think the characters' moral flaws stick in too many craws. There's a scene I could change that would probably make it go down more easily, but I like the story the way it is.

We talk now and then about tension as an important aspect of erotic stories. I think the readers' moral conflicts are a big part of the tension--especially for stories in categories where there's an inherent edge: I/T, E/V and NC/R come to mind. On the other hand, stories in categories without that inherent edge (EC is probably the best example) it's harder to build that tension.

I've never posted in EC because my stories generally have a niche that puts them in other categories, but I will be putting one in there later this year for an upcoming challenge. I'll see what the reception is.

 

[NotWise]

I've never posted in EC because my stories generally have a niche that puts them in other categories, but I will be putting one in there later this year for an upcoming challenge. I'll see what the reception is.

Are your stories ever short on tension?

 

[lovecraft68]

Are your stories ever short on tension?

Believe it or not I have a few that are simple and fun.

And those get comments about how they like my longer slow burn stuff better. After a period of time you can be a victim of your own style.

 

[BobbyBrandt]

It's written-as the first one is-from the guy's POV. he does have moments of knowing this is wrong, but he's enamored, first by lust, then love and he has mentioned saying something but his older lover keeps him from doing it.

In the part where his mother confronts him, she makes it a point to explain how someone his age isn't a match for a woman her age and he's been manipulated into lying, and I figured that insight might tip the readers to the "Yeah, this was wrong" but nope.

Guess if you toss in the word "love" people forgive a lot. IDK

My question, from a morality perspective, is "Why is it wrong?"

As you describe it, there is a single 21 year old male in a consensual sexual relationship with an older unmarried female. They aren't related, so unless you left something out in your description, the only possible negative consideration might be their age difference, and there's nothing "immoral" about that whether "love" is involved or not.

Am I missing something?

 

[lovecraft68]

My question, from a morality perspective, is "Why is it wrong?"

As you describe it, there is a single 21 year old male in a consensual sexual relationship with an older unmarried female. They aren't related, so unless you left something out in your description, the only possible negative consideration might be their age difference, and there's nothing "immoral" about that whether "love" is involved or not.

Am I missing something?

Reread the post. You're missing its not a random young guy with a random older woman. She lives across the street, is his best friend's mother and the mother is good friends with his mother, and they snuck around behind their backs for months.

The issue isn't the age difference or either being attached to someone else, the "wrong" is lying to the other people closest to them.

 

[pink_silk_glove]

I think that there are certain kinks/categories where the moral judgements of readers matter quite a bit and others not so much.

And let's just be clear about when we say morals that we understand that they are personal and very (sometimes wildly) from person to person (reader to reader).

Let's delve into some of this - and let's not judge anyone here, I'm certainly not trying to, just want to crunch some logic - and ask ourselves, just what percentage of incest fans believe that incest (their kink) is immoral. Tough for me to say since I don't really read the category, but going by the testimony of AH members lending their experience here, it seems that incest fans by and large do feel that incest is immoral. I could be wrong but hear this out. Again, not judging, in fact why can't someone who has this kink that violates their own morality come to a place like literotica for an outlet and no one gets hurt (most of all themselves)? I think that it's great that they can come here and do this. But getting back to the morality of incest fans itself, it does make sense that things like infidelity and non-con seem to go over poorly in incest. If we think about it, if someone fantasied about something that they may have shame for, wouldn't that fantasy be a world where incest was not immoral, was totally accepted and all guilt was removed? If we extend that argument it makes perfect sense why other things very often considered immoral such as non-con and infidelity are not welcome in this fantasy. They introduce more guilt. We are trying to remove the guilt of incest, so dumping in the guilt of other 'immoral' acts defeats the purpose.

This is why I believe that most incest fans do believe that incest is "morally wrong" at least in the real world.

So getting back to the original post in the topic, I believe that the mature kink is just not seen as immoral by many, and so there is far less morality wrestling in reading a mature story such as the one that you posted (although I admit that I haven't read it). The mature readers by and large aren't wrestling with any guilt over their kink and so introducing more guilt doesn't really harm the fantasy.

That's my thesis anyway. What do you think?

Perhaps if you wanted to do a morality test, you should have chosen a category like incest or non-con or ... yea I won't mention the other good candidate (or two).

 

[MillieDynamite]

Sigh, @lovecraft68, a mind is a terrible thing to waste.

 

[yowser]

I'd be fascinated if someone here would come up with a proper Literotica morality test.

Then we could all take it and see how we score.

 

[GuiltyCowboy]

Reread the post. You're missing its not a random young guy with a random older woman. She lives across the street, is his best friend's mother and the mother is good friends with his mother, and they snuck around behind their backs for months.

The issue isn't the age difference or either being attached to someone else, the "wrong" is lying to the other people closest to them.

I’m with BobbyBrandt: this doesn’t feel immoral to me. You can have a relationship that is not ‘wrong’ and still know it might be upsetting to other people in your life - and so keep it private.

You can argue they’re not being transparent of course but that’s not the same as being immoral.

If, say, a recently divorced man keeps a new relationship from his 12 year-old son to spare him upset and disappointment, is that immoral? I don’t think so. You could even make a strong argument that it’s morally correct, not immoral.
And I don’t think anybody can say their friendship with someone implicitly precludes that friend forming a relationship with someone else in their family.

If they’re being deliberately deceptive - and with malicious intent - then that might be immoral.

But to be deliberately withholding with admirable intent is quite different. Even if it’s self-serving. It’s what most people would do. I’m not surprised nobody complained.

 

[MillieDynamite]

Why is violence acceptable in stories on the site for children to view, but sex isn't?

I'd be fascinated if someone here would come up with a proper Literotica morality test.

Then we could all take it and see how we score.

 

[lovecraft68]

Why is violence acceptable in stories on the site for children to view, but sex isn't?

That's a good question. Follow up would be why can extreme violence happen to underage characters including rape, but it can remain here even after reports?

 

[lovecraft68]

I’m with BobbyBrandt: this doesn’t feel immoral to me. You can have a relationship that is not ‘wrong’ and still know it might be upsetting to other people in your life - and so keep it private.

You can argue they’re not being transparent of course but that’s not the same as being immoral.

If, say, a recently divorced man keeps a new relationship from his 12 year-old son to spare him upset and disappointment, is that immoral? I don’t think so. You could even make a strong argument that it’s morally correct, not immoral.
And I don’t think anybody can say their friendship with someone implicitly precludes that friend forming a relationship with someone else in their family.

If they’re being deliberately deceptive - and with malicious intent - then that might be immoral.

But to be deliberately withholding with admirable intent is quite different. Even if it’s self-serving. It’s what most people would do. I’m not surprised nobody complained.

What was the admirable intent? That they knew the son would lose his mind knowing his best friend was tapping his mother, and the mother's friend doing her son?

There's a line in the story-not original by any means-where the MC's mother asks him point blank why she hasn't met the woman he's seeing, and she knows he's seeing someone because he doesn't come home some nights and even made up a name for her-when he's evasive, she reminds him that his father-who passed away two years ago-always told him if you have to lie about something, then you know you're wrong.

I didn't want to put that much detail here and bore people but there's a scene the best friend is asking him who he's seeing, he won't say, then the best friend makes a joke that its probable because she's ugly and he plays right up to it. That was part of the 'test' so to speak, is they both had times they could have come clean and lied, but once they realized they were now a serious couple, they were going to just drop it like "Yeah, so for six months we lief to your damn faces and played you, but..."

I'd link the actual story, but to really get it, part one needs to be read and I'm not asking people to read that much.

 

[melimelissa]

As time goes on I find myself getting bored sometimes with writing and decide I want to play some kind of game with a story and see reader reaction.

A few weeks ago I published a story which was a sequel to one from a couple years ago. Won't go into a lot of details as to how and why etc, but a 21 year old has been having sex with his best friend's mother who is recently divorced, and she's also friends with the MC's mother. They've been sneaking around to avoid drama because it was supposed to be just hot sex, so why get into it?

The two then find they're falling in love and decide its time to say something...but then get caught by the son who flips out, goes and tells the MC's mother who flips out, lots of drama ensues.

But here's the game I was playing. We get a lot of moralists here (especially in LW) who apply real life "Man, that's fucked up" to fictional sex stories set up to where the 'fucked up' is part of the draw. What I wanted to see was this: would the readers call out the fact the the two main characters were totally, 100% wrong for even being together at the start, let alone months of lying to their loved ones. Or, would somehow, because the two were generally good people which was established in story one, and did love each other and were just in a no win scenario that the son/mother would never except.

In other words, would they be seen as sympathetic somehow, or would the readers take them to task? I played this to the hilt in the confrontation with the son and mother and in the end the son moves out while the mother begrudgingly accepts it because she doesn't want to lose her son. More emotion and drama than you'd expect in a milf story, but I enjoyed writing it. My personal take? They were wrong and they betrayed those close to them over what in the beginning was simply sex.

The reader reaction? IN the comments no one seemed to be against them, and in several feedbacks only one person said they were 'reprehensible' and the score is over 4.7 so not a lot of low votes.

So, is this a result of the way it was written? Are most people (outside of LW) able to put morality aside for entertainment? Or would they somehow think it was fine in real life?

Or, is this all meaningless and I really am just looking for ways to amuse myself and none of it really matters?

None of this matters at all:
You are sailing a ship that is full
Of all kinds of emotions,
And surface devotion
So, the squid shit of lit may seem cool...

Mél

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