Tenses

[LupusDei]

I don't speak English and know nothing about grammar, but I have read about a thing named Past Present. In my limited understanding it basically means that you are indeed allowed to slip in present tense in description of intense, intimate flashback, but you have to wrap somewhat like a citation, a postcard from the past, with defined lead in and exit in past tense. Or something like that. It was in English about English, so some alien gibberish.

In my attempts to generate something English resembling, the problem may be I just don't know the correct past form of the base verb, and may sometimes create a complex tense just to not switch out on a hunt for a word, what, given my procrastination habits, may end in epoch before big bang.

In practice, I think long narratives in present tense just feel awkward although stories living in my head are always in present. It probably can work if the front narrative is like fifteen minutes real time, but then I would go in endless nested flashback shards, so most of text in past tense anyway.

I just can't help myself and not go out on a thousand plus words long treatise about word history in the middle of obscenities shouting match during a brawl or between strokes in sex. While that may genuinely be how I perceive the world, keeping present tense for the front part of that may seem contrived for readers.

 

[AwkwardMD]

I think I'm right.

You are not. But you are muddying the conversation by expanding the context.

Bramblethorn was correct. Some of the examples you gave were also correct, but for different reasons. They don't disprove the original point.

You can mix tenses if the situation calls for it. It is not a black and white topic.

 

[Bramblethorn]

I think you are incorrect, to a degree. In most published fiction, the conventional way to do it in your example would be to use past tense throughout. It would not imply that sacramento no longer was the capital. Nonfiction might be different depending upon what type it is. But check out examples of fictional narrative. I think I'm right.

Jane Austen, "Pride and Prejudice", Chapter 1:

It is a truth universally acknowledged, that a single man in possession of a good fortune, must be in want of a wife.

However little known the feelings or views of such a man may be on his first entering a neighbourhood, this truth is so well fixed in the minds of the surrounding families, that he is considered the rightful property of some one or other of their daughters.

"My dear Mr. Bennet," said his lady to him one day, "have you heard that Netherfield Park is let at last?"

Mr. Bennet replied that he had not.

Herman Melville, "Moby Dick", Chapter 1:

Call me Ishmael. Some years ago—never mind how long precisely—having little or no money in my purse, and nothing particular to interest me on shore, I thought I would sail about a little and see the watery part of the world. It is a way I have of driving off the spleen and regulating the circulation. Whenever I find myself growing grim about the mouth; whenever it is a damp, drizzly November in my soul; whenever I find myself involuntarily pausing before coffin warehouses, and bringing up the rear of every funeral I meet; and especially whenever my hypos get such an upper hand of me, that it requires a strong moral principle to prevent me from deliberately stepping into the street, and methodically knocking people’s hats off—then, I account it high time to get to sea as soon as I can.

J.R.R. Tolkien, "The Hobbit", Chapter 1:

In a hole in the ground there lived a hobbit. Not a nasty, dirty, wet hole, filled with the ends of worms and an oozy smell, nor yet a dry, bare, sandy hole with nothing in it to sit down on or to eat: it was a hobbit-hole, and that means comfort.

...

The mother of our particular hobbit—what is a hobbit? I suppose hobbits need some description nowadays, since they have become rare and shy of the Big People, as they call us. They are (or were) a little people, about half our height, and smaller than the bearded dwarves. Hobbits have no beards. There is little or no magic about them, except the ordinary everyday sort which helps them to disappear quietly and quickly when large stupid folk like you and me come blundering along, making a noise like elephants which they can hear a mile off.

Clive Barker, "The Book of Blood (a postscript): On Jerusalem Street":

The dead have highways. They run, unerring lines of ghost-trains, of dream-carriages, across the wasteland behind our lives, bearing an endless traffic of departed souls. They have sign-posts, these highways, and bridges and lay-bys. They have turnpikes and intersections.

It was at one of these intersections that Leon Wyburd caught sight of the man in the red suit. The throng pressed him forward, and it was only when he came closer that he realised his error. The man was not wearing a suit. He was not even wearing his skin...

What the boy had said was true. The dead have highways.

Only the living are lost.

Terry Pratchett, "Men At Arms":

Edward dozed off with the book on his knees and had a dream. He dreamed of glorious struggle... if traitors and dishonourable men would not see the truth then he, Edward d'Eath, was the finger of Destiny.

The problem with Destiny, of course, is that she is often not careful where she puts her finger.

Antoine de Saint-Exupéry, "The Little Prince" (English tr.):

My drawing was not a picture of a hat. It was a picture of a boa constrictor digesting an elephant. But since the grown-ups were not able to understand it, I made another drawing: I drew the inside of a boa constrictor, so that the grown-ups could see it clearly. They always need to have things explained.

C.S. Lewis, "The Lion, The Witch, and the Wardrobe":

Peter held the door closed but did not shut it; for, of course, he remembered, as every sensible person does, that you should never never shut yourself up in a wardrobe.

All of those consistent with the usage I described: past tense used to describe events happening at a point in time in the narrator's past, present tense used to describe ongoing phenomena which are true both in the narrator's present and at the time of the story. (Or in the Jane Austen example, facetiously claimed to be true.)

I'm astonished that you haven't encountered any of those before now.

 

[SimonDoom]

Jane Austen, "Pride and Prejudice", Chapter 1:



Herman Melville, "Moby Dick", Chapter 1:



J.R.R. Tolkien, "The Hobbit", Chapter 1:



Clive Barker, "The Book of Blood (a postscript): On Jerusalem Street":



Terry Pratchett, "Men At Arms":



Antoine de Saint-Exupéry, "The Little Prince" (English tr.):



C.S. Lewis, "The Lion, The Witch, and the Wardrobe":



All of those consistent with the usage I described: past tense used to describe events happening at a point in time in the narrator's past, present tense used to describe ongoing phenomena which are true both in the narrator's present and at the time of the story. (Or in the Jane Austen example, facetiously claimed to be true.)

I'm astonished that you haven't encountered any of those before now.

I've encountered almost all of those, and I understand what you're saying, but they're distinguishable from the Sacramento example you gave. In the examples you gave the present tense is used in one of two ways: either (1) in the introduction to the story, where the narrator asserts his/her presence and the reader is settling into the reading experience that's about to begin, or (2) to assert a "universal truth." In either context, the use of the present tense is common and fine, although it depends on the extent to which as an author you want the reader to be aware of the narrator as a presence. In the Tolkien example, for example, the use of the present tense comes across as a little quaint and unserious, much more like the tone of The Hobbit than the tone of the rest of the Lord of the Rings. The reader knows that Hobbits don't exist in the present day. When Tolkien describes them as "rare" we are aware of his presence as a narrator in a way that we would not otherwise. I always thought this passage struck a false note in light of the tone of the rest of the trilogy. It's too cute. I thought it should have been changed.

Your example is different from that. Your example about Sacramento states a fact about a city in your fictional universe. Let's be specific: Let's say the passage takes place in a short story or novel set 20 years ago where somebody travels to Sacramento. It would be standard to use the past tense to describe Sacramento as the capital, not the present tense. I'm not taking the absolutist position that it's always wrong, just that the more conventional way to do it would be to use the past tense in that particular example. It's not the case that doing so -- in that context -- would imply that Sacramento no longer was the capital. I personally think in your example, in the fictional setting I describe, the present tense would sound weird.

There are innumerable examples where present tense is effectively mixed with past tense in fiction, and it often works. But the usage typically falls into discrete types. Another example is the scene shift, where the general narrative is interrupted by a short passage told in present tense. This happens in suspense novels, and the use of present tense gives a sense of urgency, immediacy, and suspense. But that, too, is different from the intermixture of past and present within a scene. As a general guideline I think you're better off trying scrupulously to avoid doing that.

 

[gordo12]

the first time you read it, you'll see all kinds of errors and things you need to change.

Ain't that the truth. Read it over a hundred times and spot a hundred errors as soon as it posts.

I have the same tense shift problems. I had to redo an entire section of one story because I shifted from the past to the present. Reading it over it was obvious and I have no idea why it happened.

Frustrating.

 

[Bramblethorn]

I've encountered almost all of those, and I understand what you're saying, but they're distinguishable from the Sacramento example you gave. In the examples you gave the present tense is used in one of two ways: either (1) in the introduction to the story, where the narrator asserts his/her presence and the reader is settling into the reading experience that's about to begin, or (2) to assert a "universal truth."

...

Your example is different from that. Your example about Sacramento states a fact about a city in your fictional universe. Let's be specific: Let's say the passage takes place in a short story or novel set 20 years ago where somebody travels to Sacramento. It would be standard to use the past tense to describe Sacramento as the capital, not the present tense.

OK, if you're determined to split this particular hair, some examples where the story narrates events in the past tense but switches to present for ongoing traits of specific characters or places, just as in the example you presented as "wrong":

John le Carré, "The Russia House":

For if Landau despised what too often passed for literature, his pleasure in technical matters was unconfined. Even when he didn't follow what he was looking at, he could relish a good page of mathematics all day long. And he knew at one glance, as he had known of the woman Katya, that what he was looking at here was quality. Not your ruled drawing, it was true. Light sketches but all the better for it. Drawn freehand without instruments by somebody who could think with a pencil. Tangents, parabolas, cones. And in between the drawings, businesslike descriptions that architects and engineers use, words like 'aimpoint' and Adaptive carry' and 'bias' and gravity and trajectory -'some in your English, Harry, and some in your Russian.'

Though Harry is not my real name.

Kazuo Ishiguro, "The Remains of the Day":

Recalling a time when I had had a staff of seventeen under me, and knowing how not so long ago a staff of twenty-eight had been employed here at Darlington Hall, the idea of devising a staff plan by which the same house would be run on a staff of four seemed, to say the least, daunting. Although I did my best not to, something of my scepticism must have betrayed itself, for Mr Farraday then added, as though for reassurance, that were it to prove necessary, then an additional member of staff could be hired. But he would be much obliged, he repeated, if I could "give it a go with four".

Now naturally, like many of us, I have a reluctance to change too much of the old ways.

Iain Banks, "The Wasp Factory":

'I see you washed your hands again,' my father said as I sipped the hot soup. He was being sarcastic. He took the bottle of whisky from the dresser and poured himself a drink. The other glass, which I guessed had been the constable's, he put in the sink. He sat down at the far end of the table.

My father is tall and slim, though slightly stooped. He has a delicate face, like a woman's, and his eyes are dark. He limps now, and has done ever since I can remember.

Ian Fleming, "Casino Royale":

The sun shone and there was a gaiety and sparkle in the air which seemed to promise well for the new era of fashion and prosperity for which the little seaside town, after many vicissitudes, was making its gallant bid.

Royale-les-Eaux, which lies near the mouth of the Somme before the flatcoast-line soars up from the beaches of southern Picardy to the Brittany cliffs which run on to Le Havre, had experienced much the same fortunes as Trouville.

Roy Horniman, "Israel Rank":

I had scoffed at the maxim "Murder will out". I found myself living in company with it. It had a way of springing into my head when I woke in the morning, and the letters danced in front of me like devillings. It repeated itself in my brain rhythmically for days, and it required the strongest effort of will on my part to silence it.

It must be remembered that I was very young, and that what I had done was irrevocable; further, I am not naturally callous.

In the Tolkien example, for example, the use of the present tense comes across as a little quaint and unserious, much more like the tone of The Hobbit than the tone of the rest of the Lord of the Rings. The reader knows that Hobbits don't exist in the present day. When Tolkien describes them as "rare" we are aware of his presence as a narrator in a way that we would not otherwise. I always thought this passage struck a false note in light of the tone of the rest of the trilogy. It's too cute. I thought it should have been changed.

nitpick: "The Hobbit" isn't part of the "Lord of the Rings" trilogy. It's a separate book; LotR comprises "Fellowship of the Ring", "The Two Towers", and "Return of the King", plus appendices. And Tolkien writes about Hobbits in LotR in the same quaint present-tense style that he did in "The Hobbit". For instance, from FotR:

Hobbits are an unobtrusive but very ancient people, more numerous formerly than they are today; for they love peace and quiet and good tilled earth: a well-ordered and well-farmed countryside was their favourite haunt. They do not and did not understand or like machines more complicated than a forge-bellows, a water-mill, or a hand-loom, though they were skilful with tools. Even in ancient days they were, as a rule, shy of 'the Big Folk', as they call us, and now they avoid us with dismay and are becoming hard to find.

...

Those days, the Third Age of Middle-earth, are now long past, and the shape of all lands has been changed; but the regions in which Hobbits then lived were doubtless the same as those in which they still linger

There are some major differences in writing style between Hobbit and LotR, but this ain't one of them.