Teknically correct

[eastern sun]

It's at best of dubious value. Its benefits are questionable, it might be detrimental even, so, it has little to no value.

Define value?....without using the word value in the definition?
I guess I'd have to say that value represents increasing the "good", the benefit of something or its consequences.

Does "toil" have value? It means working hard and that's an admirable trait, but, if all your hard work bring very little return, then it's not valuable. I equate the worth of the work with the benefits of the outcome. Now, in the context I was using it in, back in the days of yore, people toiled but got very little for their hard work. What's more they had no choice but to toil and hope all would work out. They weren't being stoic, working hard when they had some other easier option available. They were doing what was necessary to survive...which is what everyone does, really, so it's nothing special.

Should I use "toil" in some other context?

You should use it as you see fit. Our disagreement stems not from our use of the words "empirical" or "toil." It comes from our use of the word "value."

In addition to its economic definition, I recognize the definition of "value" as a reflection of how someone thinks of something, of its "usefulness" or "importance."

I sincerely hope you (and other economists) see value in things beyond the economic measures of their productivity, and I actually imagine that you do. But it's admittedly a soft area, including quite a bit of subjectivity, and wide open to debate.

In closing, I am willing to rest our disagreement on the definitions we are using of the word "value." And continue to assert my own belief that "toil" and those who "toil" have "value."

 

[teknight]

Good to realize that.

something's usefulness underlies its importance....and you can assign an economic dollar and sense value....whether you as an individual, or society as a whole want to do that.

And I'll add this: it's not working "hard" that's valuable. It's working "smart." If the same amount of effort, results in more then it's good. After all one can put a lot of effort into a poorly done job.

 

[eastern sun]

Good to realize that.

something's usefulness underlies its importance....and you can assign an economic dollar and sense value....whether you as an individual, or society as a whole want to do that.

And I'll add this: it's not working "hard" that's valuable. It's working "smart." If the same amount of effort, results in more then it's good. After all one can put a lot of effort into a poorly done job.

I don't agree that usefulness is the only basis for importance, and by extension value.

 

[teknight]

In addition to its economic definition, I recognize the definition of "value" as a reflection of how someone thinks of something, of its "usefulness" or "importance."

I sincerely hope you (and other economists) see value in things beyond the economic measures of their productivity, and I actually imagine that you do. But it's admittedly a soft area, including quite a bit of subjectivity, and wide open to debate.

I don't agree that usefulness is the only basis for importance, and by extension value.

Your own words words are emboldened above.

And you come to this discussion heavily biased. You think that because I'm using dollars and cents (which isn't necessarily the case) I'm being cold, calculating, and, to an extent, evil.

 

[eastern sun]

Your own words words are emboldened above.

And you come to this discussion heavily biased. You think that because I'm using dollars and cents (which isn't necessarily the case) I'm being cold, calculating, and, to an extent, evil.

We both have biases, hence the trouble. But I don't think you're cold, calculating, or evil. Quite the contrary, you seem to be quite passionate and impulsive

I think the narrowness in the definitions of your words leads to statements that no longer reflect the truth of the world as I know it.

Regarding my words above, I don't see any contradiction in them, I separate "usefulness" and "importance" to recognize they may not be one and the same quality of a thing.

 

[teknight]

Well, I try to use these narrow definitions, 'cause otherwise, I'd just be throwing words around, making conversation even more difficult in this particular form of communication.

Something can be useful....but not important? Could you please give me an example?

 

[eastern sun]

Well, I try to use these narrow definitions, 'cause otherwise, I'd just be throwing words around, making conversation even more difficult in this particular form of communication.

Something can be useful....but not important? Could you please give me an example?

My tampon.

 

[teknight]

If it really is not important, then, why do you have it and use it?

 

[eastern sun]

If it really is not important, then, why do you have it and use it?

Convenience. Do you equate convenience with importance? I don't.

 

[teknight]

Convenience. Do you equate convenience with importance? I don't.

* rues to himself: "this whole "making yourself understood" shtick can be hard at times, it'd seem-especially when coffee's not been had yet*
OK. What's important then?

 

[eastern sun]

* rues to himself: "this whole "making yourself understood" shtick can be hard at times, it'd seem-especially when coffee's not been had yet*
OK. What's important then?

Something that has significance (and significance - in my opinion - lies in the eye of the beholder). Something that contributes "greatly" to one's survival or well-being. Something that is prioritized over something else.

My tampon certainly contributes to my well-being, but not "greatly," (with a few exceptions in business meetings and middle school ). If I didn't have it, I'd use something else, or change my behavior accordingly. It, in and of itself, has very little importance to me.

On the other hand, I have this silly collection of penguins that sits on a shelf over my computer. Completely useless in a functional sense, but very important to me. It contributes "greatly" to my well-being.

Perhaps you will counter that contributing to my well-being makes my penguins useful, and it would sound like a good argument. But you can't quantify that value. This set of penguins would be a bunch of stupid junk to someone else.

 

[Perfect_Blue]

I am throughly enjoying reading this thread, hahah.

 

[teknight]

I am throughly enjoying reading this thread, hahah.

I accept donations via Paypal?

 

[Perfect_Blue]

I accept donations via Paypal?

I accept donations via hot make out sessions. . . . . Unless you are secretly a man. Then that donation I may pass on.

 

[teknight]

I accept donations via hot make out sessions. . . . . Unless you are secretly a man. Then that donation I may pass on.

Thanks for pointing out that it's not clear (short of the knight thing) that I am male.

 

[Perfect_Blue]

Thanks for pointing out that it's not clear (short of the knight thing) that I am male.

Then yes, yes I might just pass up that offer then. However I will by you a drink good sir, and then we shall go out and pay scantly clad women to present their genitalia to us in various erotic positions as we shower them with a generous portion of our hard earned money. After all if we don't help put little Tommy through college who will?

 

[Ellafun]

Dear Tek:
I'm getting a little tired of my self-imposed non-communication exile and may have to traipse back amongst the land of lustful sometime soon.
(translation: I'm bored!)
el.