Teknically correct

[teknight]

swine! send me my picture back!

Ok....but what am I supposed to do with the tattoo I got of it?

 

[where]

Ok....but what am I supposed to do with the tattoo I got of it?

post pics of it in my 'tattoo you' thread.

 

[PenIsMightier1]

Mmm, you're in someone else's thread and getting your panties in a twist because they didn't love what you were doing?

Weird.

*Sigh* Panties not in a twist I wasn't doing anything at all and saying "made me want to vomit" is a far cry from not loving it, so try not to make snarky comments just because you don't know me

But I don't want to get into some internet war, so I am sorry if I upset anyone, I am just annoyed in principle

 

[Lizzie_Borden]

I'm just pissed with tek for not posting bits. so much for reciprocity. the cad.

Have you ever thought he might be a bit of a Ken doll?

And you're putting him in an awkward position because he doesn't want to show his plasticy moulded groin?

There's nothing to ashamed of Tek!

 

[teknight]

Have you ever thought he might be a bit of a Ken doll?

And you're putting him in an awkward position because he doesn't want to show his plastic molded groin?

There's nothing to be ashamed of, Tek!

There. Post fixed.
*insert additional snarky remark here*

 

[graceanne]

This might have been asked, but whatever happened to tek sucking a vampires cock?

 

[teknight]

I had some garlic prior to the act. He died.

 

[where]

Have you ever thought he might be a bit of a Ken doll?

And you're putting him in an awkward position because he doesn't want to show his plasticy moulded groin?

There's nothing to ashamed of Tek!

nooooo! say it ain't so!

This might have been asked, but whatever happened to tek sucking a vampires cock?

I had realised that I might scare you all off. plus I'm chicken.

 

[teknight]

nooooo! say it ain't so!

You're not very good at quoting. But you're back for more, so it's a moot point.
How are you?

 

[where]

You're not very good at quoting. But you're back for more, so it's a moot point.
How are you?

more? I haven't had any yet.

 

[eastern sun]

I was raised by hippies, and have spent much of my life trying to figure out what that means. What does it mean to you?

I was raised in Berkeley California during the 1960's, surrounded by intellectuals and hippies. Both groups in my opinion had narrowed the scope of the world into a model they felt they could reasonably comprehend.

In your posts, I keep hearing some of the arrogance in the intellectual arguments I used to listen to in college. My experience since then has opened me into different ways of thinking and experiencing the world.

I am more than happy to be wrong. But I'm not convinced by your arguments that I am.

I'm also willing to concede that our different understandings of the words we are using could lie at the crux of our disagreement.

Question, regarding the differences in our use of the word "empirical" - how can something be "perfectly valuable and correct," while "it's value is still questionable"?

My understanding of the word is that it describes knowledge based on observation and experience instead of logic and theory.

 

[teknight]

I was raised by hippies, and have spent much of my life trying to figure out what that means. What does it mean to you?

Well, for me (and I'm sorry to say) it has a rather negative connotation. My own biases and experiences don't make me think that every bit of human knowledge of worthwhile, by mere virtue of people having spent time and devoted energy to it. Some of it was just flat wrong...hell, a lot of it still is, we barely know anything, really. I say everything has to be questioned (even the shit I say). I'll grant you that you can't question everything all the time (and some stuff will always go unnoticed), but everything is fair game.

But I've not actually answered your question: the negative side to a hippie (according to my own definition, so this needn't be true or apply to all those who call themselves hippies) is that you accept a bunch of "philosophy" and "knowledge" that's not scientifically empirically based (and Homburg's gonna chime in and say that I drink the empirical kool-aid and I suck for having a narrow point of view- well, I'm assuming that last part, as he's not said it-). As such, it's wrong and I'd say useless knowledge, especially when we're talking about human health and livelihoods.

Does any of that make sense?

 

[eastern sun]

Well, for me (and I'm sorry to say) it has a rather negative connotation. My own biases and experiences don't make me think that every bit of human knowledge of worthwhile, by mere virtue of people having spent time and devoted energy to it. Some of it was just flat wrong...hell, a lot of it still is, we barely know anything, really. I say everything has to be questioned (even the shit I say). I'll grant you that you can't question everything all the time (and some stuff will always go unnoticed), but everything is fair game.

But I've not actually answered your question: the negative side to a hippie (according to my own definition, so this needn't be true or apply to all those who call themselves hippies) is that you accept a bunch of "philosophy" and "knowledge" that's not scientifically empirically based (and Homburg's gonna chime in and say that I drink the empirical kool-aid and I suck for having a narrow point of view- well, I'm assuming that last part, as he's not said it-). As such, it's wrong and I'd say useless knowledge, especially when we're talking about human health and livelihoods.

Does any of that make sense?

You've clearly stated that you're biased, but the rest was not as clear.

My reading is you think that I've accepted a bunch of "philosophy" and "knowledge" that has no foundation in science, which makes it therefore useless and wrong.

Truthfully, you might find it funny that my favorite book as a kid was a "how-to" book published by the local commune that taught you how to do everything from baking bread, to burying your dead. I loved that all the practical necessities were so neatly taken care of in a book with less than 150 pages. It made life seem more manageable.

 

[eastern sun]

(I'm sorry I edited that first post, it makes this conversation a little confusing.)

I am still curious about how, if we are using the word "empirical" differently, knowledge can be "perfectly valuable and correct" while "its value is still questionable."

 

[teknight]

You've clearly stated that you're biased, but the rest was not as clear.

My reading is you think that I've accepted a bunch of "philosophy" and "knowledge" that has no foundation in science, which makes it therefore useless and wrong.

I admit I'm putting words in your mouth, but at the same time, you make what appear to me to be vague statements. My mind can't help but fill in the voids-and filling them with my assumptions and thoughts, not yours.

Truthfully, you might find it funny that my favorite book as a kid was a "how-to" book published by the local commune that taught you how to do everything from baking bread, to burying your dead. I loved that all the practical necessities were so neatly taken care of in a book with less than 150 pages. It made life seem more manageable.

OK? I don't see your point here, although, yeah, it would be wonderful if life could fit in that many pages....it doesn't...and if it did, I'd question every single comma, period and every word...'cause that's how I work....

Again....I'm not sure how I'm coming across, or that we've done anything to close the gap...

 

[eastern sun]

I admit I'm putting words in your mouth, but at the same time, you make what appear to me to be vague statements. My mind can't help but fill in the voids-and filling them with my assumptions and thoughts, not yours.


OK? I don't see your point here, although, yeah, it would be wonderful if life could fit in that many pages....it doesn't...and if it did, I'd question every single comma, period and every word...'cause that's how I work....

Again....I'm not sure how I'm coming across, or that we've done anything to close the gap...

I agree that you're putting words in my mouth. And my statements may be vague. I welcome you to challenge them, it forces me to refine my thinking, and if necessary correct statements that are so open they become meaningless.

As long as you recognize that you fill the gaps in my statements with your own assumptions and thoughts, which do not in fact reflect my own, I have no problem agreeing to disagree.

Which prompts me to return to the beginning of our discussion. . . and the use of the word "toil."

You wrote -

"Toil isn't a sign of worthiness- get that obsolete idea out out of your head....or give up all the modern trappings, and be "pious/worthy." And here's why I know this to be a fact: if toil were somehow a good, then we'd have stuck with it, instead of creating all this modern machinery to perform the work for us. Toil only means that you're incapable of producing much of value."

Since my nature as "child of a hippie" is now clear and out in the open, I'd like to point out that one legacy of that childhood is an almost primitive use of technology by any modern standard. My chosen lifestyle has therefore acquainted me with the meaning of the word "toil" as I believe you meant it to be understood. Hours and hours of what we call "elbow grease" without the kind of productivity you'd get with faster, more mechanized technologies.

I also am a critic of modern agricultural technologies, the consumer economy that produces far more material goods than anyone needs and makes them fail on a timely basis to make sure you buy more, and economic policies that monopolize wealth and encourage speculative trading and high-risk investing.

I think there is merit in "toil." I think the fact that so many modern young people no longer experience "toil" is a loss for the human species. And it isn't simply because of some arcane or superstitious medieval belief in self-flagellation, though I admit I've gotten off on that too (I am a self-identified slave after all), it's because the actual experience of "toil" ties you to such a wide swath of humanity it opens your mind and your heart to the experience of others who would greatly benefit from being understood.

 

[teknight]

(I'm sorry I edited that first post, it makes this conversation a little confusing.)

I am still curious about how, if we are using the word "empirical" differently, knowledge can be "perfectly valuable and correct" while "its value is still questionable."

I missed this post:
For me empirical means that laboratory studies have been conducted following strict protocols, and the scientific method, to determine whether A or B has had an effect. If not that, then longitudinal studies, where a group of people is followed over a bunch of years to see what observed differences in their behaviors result in some outcome...like working out and rate of heart attacks, or some such. I use the term very narrowly, and when I'm being deliberate, I try to use words very narrowly.

I agree that you're putting words in my mouth. And my statements may be vague. I welcome you to challenge them, it forces me to refine my thinking, and if necessary correct statements that are so open they become meaningless.

As long as you recognize that you fill the gaps in my statements with your own assumptions and thoughts, which do not in fact reflect my own, I have no problem agreeing to disagree.

That I can totally agree with.

Which prompts me to return to the beginning of our discussion. . . and the use of the word "toil."

You wrote -

"Toil isn't a sign of worthiness- get that obsolete idea out out of your head....or give up all the modern trappings, and be "pious/worthy." And here's why I know this to be a fact: if toil were somehow a good, then we'd have stuck with it, instead of creating all this modern machinery to perform the work for us. Toil only means that you're incapable of producing much of value."

Since my nature as "child of a hippie" is now clear and out in the open, I'd like to point out that one legacy of that childhood is an almost primitive use of technology by any modern standard. My chosen lifestyle has therefore acquainted me with the meaning of the word "toil" as I believe you meant it to be understood. Hours and hours of what we call "elbow grease" without the kind of productivity you'd get with faster, more mechanized technologies.

OK. That I can get. I was replying to Braschi, who was making it sound (and he's yet to explain anything, so I can only make assumptions) as though our ancestors were worthy only because they worked hard and led wretched lives. Their survival has led to me, but, I don't feel that we should cherish their simple lifestyle as something good. They led hard lives, struggling so that their kids and ultimately ancestors could live better. I was rejecting what I perceived as reverence to their struggle. I guess I'm being confusing, but my ultimate point is that, since they lacked the choice of not toiling, their actions aren't saintly. What's more (and this is really the gist of what i meant to say) to look at their hard lives as "saintly" is to insult them- they wanted more, they wanted "easier." That's what we have, in part thanks to them.

I also am a critic of modern agricultural technologies, the consumer economy that produces far more material goods than anyone needs and makes them fail on a timely basis to make sure you buy more, and economic policies that monopolize wealth and encourage speculative trading and high-risk investing.

I also dislike modern monocultures...as for the consumer society....we do consume...mindlessly, but, 6 billion of us do need jobs.
As for speculation- it leads to real world investment, much as it doesn't seem that way- it leads to factories/farms/labs being built, and it is a form of helping total strangers. Think of it that way too, not just as some malevolent evil entity.

I think there is merit in "toil." I think the fact that so many modern young people no longer experience "toil" is a loss for the human species. And it isn't simply because of some arcane or superstitious medieval belief in self-flagellation, though I admit I've gotten off on that too (I am a self-identified slave after all), it's because the actual experience of "toil" ties you to such a wide swath of humanity it opens your mind and your heart to the experience of others who would greatly benefit from being understood.

There is absolute merit in hard work, but humanity has always been about smart work (which involves thinking hard). That's why we live better lives than our ancestors.

As for toil leading to a connection....as long as it's voluntary, yes, but otherwise, toil would just embitter people. Look: those who toil would rather not, and those who can choose to toil....aren't toiling....

 

[eastern sun]

I missed this post:
For me empirical means that laboratory studies have been conducted following strict protocols, and the scientific method, to determine whether A or B has had an effect. If not that, then longitudinal studies, where a group of people is followed over a bunch of years to see what observed differences in their behaviors result in some outcome...like working out and rate of heart attacks, or some such. I use the term very narrowly, and when I'm being deliberate, I try to use words very narrowly.

Having clarified the differences in our use of the word "empirical," can you clarify what this statement of yours means -

knowledge can be "perfectly valuable and correct" while "its value is still questionable"

I struggle with it still.

 

[teknight]

Having clarified the differences in our use of the word "empirical," can you clarify what this statement of yours means -

knowledge can be "perfectly valuable and correct" while "its value is still questionable"

I struggle with it still.

Oh yeah...I didn't answer that....could I ask you to point out where I said that? 'cause out of that original context, I'm equally confused by whatever I meant to say.

 

[eastern sun]

Oh yeah...I didn't answer that....could I ask you to point out where I said that? 'cause out of that original context, I'm equally confused by whatever I meant to say.

"You use words completely differently from me. Your empirical is not my empirical, as my toil is not your toil.

What you claims as millenia of empirical knowledge, was not done via the scientific method, so whereas it might be perfectly valuable and correct, its value is still actually questionable."

Taken from post 417 in the manners thread.

 

[ImOnIt]

Oh yeah...I didn't answer that....could I ask you to point out where I said that? 'cause out of that original context, I'm equally confused by whatever I meant to say.

That's a sign you should think more and post less.

 

[teknight]

"You use words completely differently from me. Your empirical is not my empirical, as my toil is not your toil.

What you claims as millenia of empirical knowledge, was not done via the scientific method, so whereas it might be perfectly valuable and correct, its value is still actually questionable."

Taken from post 417 in the manners thread.

Ohhh....gotcha.
Because it hasn't been scientifically proven (actually, disproven, 'cause science builds by tearing stuff down- the "non-truths"), it's value is ....at best questionable. It might be perfectly true and valid, but, unless it is scientifically tested, we cannot know that, and should be wary and skeptical of it. That's what I meant.

Do I need to give an example?

 

[teknight]

That's a sign you should think more and post less.

Sniping, are you? I saw your pissed off post.
I find that I learn more if I air out my BS, where it might be proven wrong, rather than keeping it to myself, and assuming I'm right.
But, hey, thanks for sharing your opinion. Anything else you gotta say, or would you rather be passive aggressive some more?

 

[eastern sun]

Ohhh....gotcha.
Because it hasn't been scientifically proven (actually, disproven, 'cause science builds by tearing stuff down- the "non-truths"), it's value is ....at best questionable. It might be perfectly true and valid, but, unless it is scientifically tested, we cannot know that, and should be wary and skeptical of it. That's what I meant.

Do I need to give an example?

So something that is true but not scientifically proven has no value? Is that your assertion?

Is it the same reasoning that leads you to say that "toil" has no real value?

How do you define value?

 

[teknight]

So something that is true but not scientifically proven has no value? Is that your assertion?

Is it the same reasoning that leads you to say that "toil" has no real value?

How do you define value?

It's at best of dubious value. Its benefits are questionable, it might be detrimental even, so, it has little to no value.

Define value?....without using the word value in the definition?
I guess I'd have to say that value represents increasing the "good", the benefit of something or its consequences.

Does "toil" have value? It means working hard and that's an admirable trait, but, if all your hard work bring very little return, then it's not valuable. I equate the worth of the work with the benefits of the outcome. Now, in the context I was using it in, back in the days of yore, people toiled but got very little for their hard work. What's more they had no choice but to toil and hope all would work out. They weren't being stoic, working hard when they had some other easier option available. They were doing what was necessary to survive...which is what everyone does, really, so it's nothing special.

Should I use "toil" in some other context?