Talmudic Thoughts For the Day

[dr_mabeuse]

Lay s'more Talmudic wisdom on us, Doc...

I need a spiritual hit...

Orthodox Jews believe that God dictated the first five books of the bible (the Torah) directly to Moses. Reform and Conservative rabbis aren't so sure, and can live with the modern scholarly view that the books were written about 600 BC by human beings. In their view, the bible still has worth, and that worth is in the 2500 years of study interpretation we've put into it since then--the Talmud.

The Torah is the center of the religion, but it's the Talmud that's studied. Jews take the view that no one's going to be able to make much sense out of reading the bible directly on their own (although you're free to try) because there are meanings within meanings within meanings. You read a line directly from the bible like "In the beginning, God created the heaven and earth" from Genesis and think you know what it means, but then you read all the 20 or 30 pages of commentary in the Talmud and you see all the questions and implications in this one line, and pretty soon you're into it.

Since Judaism has no pope or central authority to decide what is and isn't Jewish, it's up to every Jew to set up his own shulchan aruch. Literally, it means a "set table". Figuratively, it means the elements of Judaism and spirituality that are meaningful and important to you. Keeping kosher might be part of my shulchan aruch, it might not be part of yours. That doesn't mean I'm less of a Jew than you. (Though believe me, Judaism has its share of crazy fundamentalists too who are only too happy to tell you how to live, just like Christianity and Islam.)

But Judaism believes it's every Jew's duty to work out his own arrangement with God according to his understanding, which is why learning to read and study the Talmud (the bible and the commentaries) are so vital to the Jewish religion. The saying is: "Two Jews, three opinions." Jews are very argumentative, even with God. The OT is filled with people arguing with God and trying to hide from him, and a council of Rabbis in the middle ages once held a trial for God to see whether he did the right thing in creating the universe in the first place, given all the suffering and all.

Jews believe we're all born with pure souls. We don't believe we're born with Original Sin. We do believe that the soul gets worn and tattered with use, and the Talmud is pretty realistic in fully expecting people to sin, but the soul can be repaired through spiritual practices and repentence. No one can redeem us but ourselves, though, which is ine place where Judaism seriously parts company with Christianity. (Another is on the issue of the Holy Trinity, which fanatically monotheistic Jews just cannot deal with.)

The word "sin" apparently comes from an ancient term for an arrow that misses its mark. That's kind of nice to know. It's not breaking some absoluite law, rather it's not living up to your own expectations of what's right.

Hate to tell you where all this wisdom is coming from. I got a copy of "The Complete Idiot's Guide to Jewish Spirituality and Mysticism" from the library to brush up on some Kabbalah and I haven't been able to put it down.

 

[matriarch]

My god is the British Consulate. *sigh*

I wonder if they accept sacrifices??

 

[rgraham666]

The word "sin" apparently comes from an ancient term for an arrow that misses its mark. That's kind of nice to know. It's not breaking some absoluite law, rather it's not living up to your own expectations of what's right.

I like that idea, doc. So much easier to handle than absolutes.

 

[Selena_Kitt]

Since Judaism has no pope or central authority to decide what is and isn't Jewish, it's up to every Jew to set up his own shulchan aruch. Literally, it means a "set table". Figuratively, it means the elements of Judaism and spirituality that are meaningful and important to you.

Oh I really like this... very appealing. Take what you like and leave the rest?

The saying is: "Two Jews, three opinions." Jews are very argumentative, even with God.

I loved Yentl I'm not kidding, really... I'm fascinated with religions, esp Orthodox ones (just their commitment and their faith, not necessarily their rigid zealousness)... the thought of studying the Talmud and arguing about it all is... frankly... hot...

The OT is filled with people arguing with God and trying to hide from him

See, now this is me... arguing with God, yelling at God... hiding from God... oh yeah... I figure, if I'm yelling at him, at least I'm talking to him and acknowledging his existence, right?

Jews believe we're all born with pure souls. We don't believe we're born with Original Sin.

This is appealing to me, too... hate the concept of Original Sin...

No one can redeem us but ourselves, though, which is ine place where Judaism seriously parts company with Christianity.

oh yes! I'm all for this concept...

The word "sin" apparently comes from an ancient term for an arrow that misses its mark. That's kind of nice to know. It's not breaking some absoluite law, rather it's not living up to your own expectations of what's right.

wow, that's beautiful...

Hate to tell you where all this wisdom is coming from. I got a copy of "The Complete Idiot's Guide to Jewish Spirituality and Mysticism" from the library to brush up on some Kabbalah and I haven't been able to put it down.

LOL
that you admitted that just makes it all even better......
__________________

 

[dr_mabeuse]

Reading this stuff about my own religion at my age--a religion I haven't had anything to do with since I was old enough to decide that it was all bullshit and I didn't want anything to do with it--it's occurred to me that we do entirely the wrong thing in exposing children to religion. It's like exposing them to sex. They're not interested in it, they don't need it, they're not able to understand it, and it gives them twisted ideas that can leave them scarred for life.

 

[Selena_Kitt]

Reading this stuff about my own religion at my age--a religion I haven't had anything to do with since I was old enough to decide that it was all bullshit and I didn't want anything to do with it--it's occurred to me that we do entirely the wrong thing in exposing children to religion. It's like exposing them to sex. They're not interested in it, they don't need it, they're not able to understand it, and it gives them twisted ideas that can leave them scarred for life.

Yes.

But what about spirituality itself? Shouldn't we expose them to that--to the wonder and mystery of the universe?

I feel that was missing from my childhood... no one told me that the world was a beautiful place, and that I was beautiful in it... that's so painful to me now... I can't even speak the words...

I could have done with less religion... and more spirit...

 

[Straight-8]

The saying is: "Two Jews, three opinions." Jews are very argumentative, even with God.

Ok, maybe you're right, I am a closet Jew despite being an atheist! Good thread.

 

[rgraham666]

Yes.

But what about spirituality itself? Shouldn't we expose them to that--to the wonder and mystery of the universe?

I feel that was missing from my childhood... no one told me that the world was a beautiful place, and that I was beautiful in it... that's so painful to me now... I can't even speak the words...

I could have done with less religion... and more spirit...

Religion is easier for most people to handle. It makes the world in a very understandable, and controllable, place. The rules are set, how you react to things is decided beforehand, and everything is placed just so.

So religious followers and often leaders are not burdened with much thought. Or doubt. Or guilt.

Which is much more comfortable than the ongoing discovery of spirituality.

 

[Sex and Death]

Religion is easier for most people to handle. It makes the world in a very understandable, and controllable, place. The rules are set, how you react to things is decided beforehand, and everything is placed just so.

So religious followers and often leaders are not burdened with much thought. Or doubt. Or guilt.

Which is much more comfortable than the ongoing discovery of spirituality.

So true, Rob.

 

[Sex and Death]

Yes.

But what about spirituality itself? Shouldn't we expose them to that--to the wonder and mystery of the universe?

I feel that was missing from my childhood... no one told me that the world was a beautiful place, and that I was beautiful in it... that's so painful to me now... I can't even speak the words...

I could have done with less religion... and more spirit...

I agree, we don't need to expose our children, or oursleves, to spirit. We just need to stop putting on blinders and diverting attention from it, for oursleves and for our children. Spirit is always here...always was. We leanred how to deny it, and that's what we teach our children, our habits and patterns of denial. I think you don't learn to see god, you learn not to see god, and religion often teaches that denial better than any other teacher. We could learn how to see god from our children.

The world is more god than not. I wonder how and why it is that we work so hard to see the not god and avoid seeing the god?

S&D

 

[Roxanne Appleby]

A little side note - I am an atheist, but I have long thought that if I were forced to adopt a religion it would be the brand of Talmidic Judaism that Mab is generously giving us samples of, for exactly the kind of deep thinking, wisdom and insightful observations it offers regarding "existential" questions.

 

[Pure]

mab

Originally Posted by dr_mabeuse
Reading this stuff about my own religion at my age--a religion I haven't had anything to do with since I was old enough to decide that it was all bullshit and I didn't want anything to do with it--it's occurred to me that we do entirely the wrong thing in exposing children to religion. It's like exposing them to sex. They're not interested in it, they don't need it, they're not able to understand it, and it gives them twisted ideas that can leave them scarred for life.

i was 'exposed to religion', and i think the problem is that it's external, relatively trivial things one learns.

the best 'teaching' is my example, e.g, if your parents act like Talmudic sages--e.g. declining to take revenge, and being willing, as i believe the old example goes, to help an enemy get his horse out of the ditch.

i think there is a parallel with sex. they are, in our society, protected from the details, but they can see the fruits of good sex, e.g. parent kissing, touching etc.

as to the advice, "show them spirituality," well if that's 'wonder at the world,' great. but in fact there's a large overlap of religion-as-lived and spirituality. to give an example, to consider our acts are having moral meaning or import strikes me as 'spiritual', but clearly in accord with the Talmudic component of the Jewish religion/way-of-life.

 

[Antfarmer77]

Been cautiously dipping my spiritual toes back into the texts of my ancestral religion, encouraged by the discovery that being an agnostic or even an atheist is no barrier to being a Jew.

It's some rich stuff. Two ideas from the Talmud:

"Whatever you think about most, that's your God."

"Whatever you think about God, that's what he thinks about you."

Interesting post I was raised in a strict Baptist home amd we were taught pretty much the same thing as "Whatever you think about most, that's your God." But I was taught that's your God, notthe God.
The Bible teaches "put no other gods before Me", a directive to the christians.
Everything, religion-wise, comes down to interpetation I guess. I know what I believe and I know where I fall short and I try not to be judgemental of others

 

[Roxanne Appleby]

Why do bad things happen to good people?

Bump -

Dr. M, how about a little Talmudic wisdom on the question, "Why do bad things happen to good people?"

Honest answer: "I don't know," but I suspect the Jewish thinkers have wrestled with this more than most, and may have some insights (and maybe some comfort) that we "Dummies" could benefit from.

Thanks,

Roxanne


(The best comfort would be good news . . .)

 

[Recidiva]

Talmudic Healing Prayer:

May the One who was a source of blessing for our ancestors, bring blessings of healing upon Nirvanadragones, a healing of body and a healing of spirit. May those in whose care they are entrusted be gifted with wisdom and skill, and those who surround them be gifted with love and trust, openness and support in their care. And may they be healed along with all those who are in need. Blessed are You, Source of healing.

 

[Roxanne Appleby]

Talmudic Healing Prayer:

May the One who was a source of blessing for our ancestors, bring blessings of healing upon Nirvanadragones, a healing of body and a healing of spirit. May those in whose care they are entrusted be gifted with wisdom and skill, and those who surround them be gifted with love and trust, openness and support in their care. And may they be healed along with all those who are in need. Blessed are You, Source of healing.

Amen

~~~~

 

[ishtat]

No. There is only one god for the children of Israel. The first commandment is "I am The Lord your God... You [the children of Israel] shall have no other gods before me..."

The implication is that other people can worship other gods but not you guys.

Now that I've said all that, would someone please check the Hebrew and see if that is a fair translation?

That is nor quite right .When the idea of God, Yaweh was initially developing he started out as a Tribal God of War, then a God of Storms (Fertility)- see Elijah. later with Amos and Hosea he acquired the aspects of a God of Love and of Justice .

In this early version of the Commandmants this acknowledges that the Jews especially in the early days had other Gods especially Asherah the feminine devine. There is clear evidence for this when the Jews rediscovered the ancient Jewish population at Elephantine (the remnant Jews left behind by Moses) in Egypt who worshipped many Gods but they placed all the minor images behind not before that of Yaweh.

Ancient Judaism through its prophets fought long and hard to get rid of the minor gods especially the female ones. You may have noticed in the OT that a lot of these old Jewish kings and prophets were constantly cutting down and destroying their enemies "groves". Sounds daft until you realise that the proper translation is not "groves" but "Asherah"which was the name of the premier female godess, or of the pillars erected as her totem.

Primitive Judaism was no diffferent to all the other ancient religions which originally worshipped female godesses representing fertility in matrilineal and matriarchal societies(eg In'anna ,Ishtar, Astarte, Isis,Cybele, Asherah,etc. However as Patriarchal values gained precedence the importance of the devine female was almost eliminated by the priests and prophets.

 

[dr_mabeuse]

Bump -

Dr. M, how about a little Talmudic wisdom on the question, "Why do bad things happen to good people?"

Honest answer: "I don't know," but I suspect the Jewish thinkers have wrestled with this more than most, and may have some insights (and maybe some comfort) that we "Dummies" could benefit from.

Thanks,

Roxanne


(The best comfort would be good news . . .)

*L* I haven't gotten that far yet, but years ago I read a study that examined the changes in religious beliefs in Jews who'd survived the Holocaust, and I'll bet you can already guess what they found.

Very few people gave up on their religion. For the survivors who were already believers, the experience just deepened their beliefs and commitment to Judaism. Such is human nature. I'll bet the results would have been the same for followers of any religion.

As for why bad things happen to good people, during the brief time I was in hebrew school (or one of them. I was kicked out of several) U heard that evil itself is simply ignorance of God's plans. Jews have a concept called gam zu l'tovah which translates as something like "this too is for the best" and basically seems to come down to the old idea that we're not party to God's plans, which are ultimately all good. This is pretty much what Christians and Muslims believe too, and it's pretty weak comfort for those of us who are really hurting. The rabbi who wrote the book I'm reading readily admits that it's a tough problem and we have to work out the best answers we can.

Judaism has another concept that applies to life, and that's taken from bible study. Jews believe ethere are at least four levels of meaning to any and all biblical text. They are:

pshat – the literal meaning of the text: Eve giving Adam the apple and Noah building an ark and all that. This is the most basic understanding. Only children stop here.

remez – ("hint" in Hebrew) A deeper meaning; the moral of the story or what it's supposed to teach us

drash – Deeper still, where we get an idea of how God's assembled the universe and we can discover its physical and moral laws and see God at work in our lives. Mysticism starts here and this is where the Kabbalists jump off from.

sod – the deep secret workings of God's mind and ultimate beauty and unity of the universe. This layer is only accessed after years and years of study and dedication.

Just as study of the bible has these levels, we live our lives on similar levels. Most of the time we're in pshat, looking at the surface of things. Occasionally we're given a glimpse of remez and understand the deeper meaning of events in our life, but only rarely if ever do we dip into drash and understand God's plans at work. That's why we can't understand why bad things happen to good people.

According to some Jewish traditions, the sod of our life is revealed to us at the moment of our death.

I like this, because as writers we're all dealing with pshat to try and achieve remez, and if we're really really good or really really lucky, maybe even a dash of drash.

 

[cantdog]

Meaning. That's a bitch, for sure. But clearly we have to help each other.

 

[Guest]

Talmudic Healing Prayer:

May the One who was a source of blessing for our ancestors, bring blessings of healing upon Nirvanadragones, a healing of body and a healing of spirit. May those in whose care they are entrusted be gifted with wisdom and skill, and those who surround them be gifted with love and trust, openness and support in their care. And may they be healed along with all those who are in need. Blessed are You, Source of healing.

Amen

 

[Roxanne Appleby]

*L* I haven't gotten that far yet . . .

Well skip ahead, darn it!

remez – ("hint" in Hebrew) A deeper meaning; the moral of the story or what it's supposed to teach us.

That's what we're needing here.

 

[SEVERUSMAX]

I wouldn't go so far as to assume that all major religions had matriarchal sources. After all, matriarchal religions are generally found in societies given to cultivation of soil and crops. Those devoted to animal husbandry are more likely to take on a patriarchal outlook. The ancient Greek religion is a more typical amalgamation. Joseph Campbell covers a lot of this in his study of mythology. The herdsmen conquer and intermarry with the farmer/peasants and a hybrid culture emerges.

This didn't happen in Hebraic society for reasons of reaction, I think. I could be wrong about my Hyksos theory, but it makes sense to me. It's too coincidental that the Hyksos and the Hebrews were both pastoral peoples living in Egypt around the same time and there is no hint of where the Hyksos went or where the Hebrews originated. I suspect that a "purification" campaign prevented hybridization of the Hebraic and Canaanite cultures, that the Hebrews conquered but didn't annihilate the Canaanites, and that the there was a constant struggle to eliminate religions that had too many echoes of the hated Egyptians, who had expelled the Hyksos and were remembered for that. Remember the constant longing for Egypt: odd for a people supposedly enslaved there.

 

[cantdog]

Sev, the Hyksos had the advantage of iron, right? It's been too long since I studied this stuff.

 

[shereads]

For hours today and yesterday, God has apparently been my 14-year-old cocker spaniel, who has developed a new way to keep my attention:

she paces back and forth between my desk and the kitchen, back and forth, toenails tapping on the wood floor. At the desk, she stares at me until I lose my train of thought and make eye contact; then she hangs a u-turn and heads for the kitchen...Tap-tap-tap-tap...Tap-tap-tap-tap...Reaches the corner cabinet where the Milkbone Dog Biscuits are kept, pauses for a few seconds as if waiting for me to find her; then makes another u-turn and heads back to the office. Tap-tap-tap-tap...Tap-tap-tap-tap. It's exhausting. She does this whether she's had one Milkbone or five or zero, or has just had her breakfast, or has been offered a rawhide bone or a game of Chase Squeaky President's Bush's Head. Eventually, she knows I'll have to cave and give her anotehr #$@% Milkbone in exchange for a few minutes' peace. Then the cycle begins again.

God thinks I'm manipulating Him and have become obsessed with Milkbones.

 

[cantdog]

I hope we all don't have to become more and more obvious as we get older. What a thought!