Taking 'Christ' out of Christmas

[amicus]

Dozens of news reports in the past several weeks have referred to law suits and school actions concerning Nativity scenes and other Christian paraphenalia on public property.

Efforts to remove any reference to 'God' are taking place in dozens of States concerning public displays, monuments and statues.

On the other hand, 'Creationists' in several States are seeking to include a 'creation' scenario to be taught alongside evolution.

Two cable news channels in the past week have run special programs concerning the Constitution and the Declaration of Independence and the Bill of Rights, as those documents refer to religion, or god, or 'the creator'.

This is at the same time, political, religious and philosophical and suggests a widening public attention following the 2004 general election.

Eleven states voted to ban same sex marriage and a constitutional amendment defining marriage as 'between a man and a woman' is in the works.

I did not sense the Liberal fear of a 'fundamentalist' surge as being a real threat. Perhaps it is time to rethink.

A 'Hollywood' mentality, aka Michael Moore and others who continue to push gay rights and anti religious entertainment seem to be intent on pushing a moral crisis to the brink.

The religious right, emboldened by electoral success seem intent on forcing religious fervor into politics and the market place.

I would suggest we are in for an interesting period of time.

Then again, we could all just put our collective heads in the sand and wiggle our fannies.

http://www.publishamerica.com/shopping/shopdisplayproducts.asp?Search=Yes

amicus...

 

[cantdog]

Heinlein wrote "Revolt in 2100." Old idea. American Roundheads are always with us. Rabid irrationals!

Good luck making a coherent point about it, you old fraud. Give us a suggestion. One that doesn't infringe on their absolute liberties, of which you are always so certain.

Phooey.

 

[thebullet]

Cantdog said:
Heinlein wrote "Revolt in 2100." Old idea. American Roundheads are always with us. Rabid irrationals!

Yes, Revolt in 2100 was the first book that allerted me to the danger of modern religious zealots. The Handmaid's Tale covered similar ground.

But, Cantdog, you seem to write them off as crazies (which of course they are). But now the nuts are in charge of the nuthouse. It's time for whatever rational elements remain in American society to grow a pair of balls and start fighting for truth and logic as opposed to screwball religious fantasy.

We are watching the dumbing down of an education system that wasn't that bright to start with. We are having our rights eroded in the name of what is 'moral' (as defined by small and narrow minds).

The marriage of American Nazis and Religious Right wing fanatics is the greatest danger to America since the Civil War - mostly because they have all the money, control the media, control the presidency and the legislature (if that makes any difference any more).

I know I've become a one-hit wonder, but when will people awake and realize that danger we are all facing right now?

 

[English Lady]

Actually,this year I have noticed more nativity scenes in shops and such. In Liverpool there are several light displays with scenes from the events surrounding the birth of Christ. It makes my heart happy to see it.

Christmas is he celebration of the birth of Jesus to many people. hey should be allowed to proclaim this if they so like, just as anyone else should be able to proclaim their belief's about something.

probably nothing to do with what your actually arguing here but I'm all for leaving the Christ in Christmas thank you very much

 

[amicus]

I understand, English Lady...but America is very diverse. Every nationality is represented here and most attend public schools.

Thus we try to not impress the inherent christianity of the founding fathers upon current citizens who may be vietnamese, chinese, russian, cambodian or 160 other nationalities.

Thus, in a general sense, we try to make both government and school, non religious.

It is not an easy task.

Personally, I would do away with all public displays of religion as I think it to be barbarian...


amicus...

 

[tolyk]

You meant barbaric right?

I'm not religious, and I've never been bothered at all by seeing nativity sets displayed. In fact I see them as part of Christmas, not that I particularly care about the holiday itself, I do enjoy the thought of it however. The giving spirit that so many people acquire during the holiday season.

But as I was saying, I don't mind people setting up nativity scenes, individuals or businesses (even schools, don't mind) because it is them trying to display their religion, not try to shove it down my throat.

 

[TheEarl]

I understand, English Lady...but America is very diverse. Every nationality is represented here and most attend public schools.

Thus we try to not impress the inherent christianity of the founding fathers upon current citizens who may be vietnamese, chinese, russian, cambodian or 160 other nationalities.

Thus, in a general sense, we try to make both government and school, non religious.

It is not an easy task.

Personally, I would do away with all public displays of religion as I think it to be barbarian...


amicus...

Amicus: Just about every nationality and faith is represented here too. England's the biggest melting pot in Europe and runs the USA close for the world title.

I don't see a problem with it. I'm not Christian, but it is Christmas. You don't like the fact that there's Christ in it, go and celebrate something else.

Political correctness gone mad, to coin a phrase.

The Earl

 

[tolyk]

Amicus: Just about every nationality and faith is represented here too. England's the biggest melting pot in Europe and runs the USA close for the world title.

I don't see a problem with it. I'm not Christian, but it is Christmas. You don't like the fact that there's Christ in it, go and celebrate something else.

Political correctness gone mad, to coin a phrase.

The Earl

Thats why so many people just refer to it as X-mas Earl. heh.

 

[English Lady]

Amicus: Just about every nationality and faith is represented here too. England's the biggest melting pot in Europe and runs the USA close for the world title.

I don't see a problem with it. I'm not Christian, but it is Christmas. You don't like the fact that there's Christ in it, go and celebrate something else.

Political correctness gone mad, to coin a phrase.

The Earl

Well Said! I completely agree with what you say!

(seems i'm saying this more and more just lately )

 

[TheEarl]

Thats why so many people just refer to it as X-mas Earl. heh.

That I don't like either. It's a religious festival about Christ. You don't like Christ, go celebrate Kwanzaa, or Hanukah, or the Winter Solstice.

You can't say "Well, we like the presents and the turkey and the parties, but we don't like this Jesus fella. Isn't there some way we can get the presents without acknowledging him?"

Like I said, I'm not Christian and I celebrate Christmas in a non-religious way, but to my mind it is their festival (if you are calling it Christmas). To talk about X-mas seems trite and uncaring for other people's beliefs.

The Earl

 

[amicus]

This is the thread I began...I think...

Although the title was, "Christ out of Christmas..." it was the wider subject of religion in public places, government funded places that was the real issue.

And the teaching in schools that sexual promiscuity and the gay life style is just as acceptable as abstinence until marriage.

The 'Liberal' Libertine lifestyle has openly challenged long held mainstream morality. The backlash is now about to occur.

Christ...I thought the thread was clear. I would say I should dumb down my rhetoric but those who comment already know the issue, they just do not wish to confront it.

Fine!

Buggar off!


oops....Pernod and Porn have never mixed well with me, I get testically


(you may smile)

 

[TheEarl]

This is the thread I began...I think...

Although the title was, "Christ out of Christmas..." it was the wider subject of religion in public places, government funded places that was the real issue.

And the teaching in schools that sexual promiscuity and the gay life style is just as acceptable as abstinence until marriage.

The 'Liberal' Libertine lifestyle has openly challenged long held mainstream morality. The backlash is now about to occur.

Christ...I thought the thread was clear. I would say I should dumb down my rhetoric but those who comment already know the issue, they just do not wish to confront it.

Fine!

Buggar off!


oops....Pernod and Porn have never mixed well with me, I get testically


(you may smile)

Yes, your thread was clear. However the point E-L brought up was far more interesting so I followed that. No offence amicus, but in the last few debates that I've seen you start/involve yourself in, you've been completely incapable of cogent arguments andin one (AH Award-recognised!) post, you resorted to surrealist arguments in an attempt to defend your point.

You are, of course, talking about the extreme partitioning of American politics into a rabid left and a fundamentalist Christian right and the way that the Christian right is now going to take its revenge by forcing its morals down everyone else's throats.

However, since you have always regarded anyone who has any liberal views at all (and I use the word liberal in it's true sense, rather than as the insult it is in American politics) as a rabid leftie who is against freedom (and yearns for the return of the British Empire), I'm not sure why that side is surprising. As for the Christian fundamentalist revenge section, that's been obvious since before the election. That's why there was such a surge towards Kerry, despite him lacking any policy beyond - "I'm not Bush."

So I understand your point. I'm just not sure why you're bringing it up, considering it's something which has been discussed ad nauseam.

American government in Christian fundamentalist shocker! Amicus says "Liberals will force a confrontation with the right!" Bear found defecating in a wooded area!

The Earl

 

[cantdog]

X-mas (EL threadjack sub thread)

The "X-mas" form is actually very old and was never intended irreverently. Nowadays it is used as a sort of euphemism, but it was invented in a monkly context with no denial of Christ in its little heart, at all.

If, like the Hallmark cards do, pagan solstice symbols, and advertising gimmick Santas, and the creche in the stable in Judea are all to be conflated in a big glittery wad, it seems to me that it cheapens the stable in Judea.

If everyone wants to put up creches in the window with the mistletoe and glitter, though, well, it is their holiday. I've given up being stern about the disrespect people show for symbols. It even helps me laugh it off when some courthouse declares their Christian leanings with a "Nativity." Because they usually flank it with a plastic santa and rig the avatar of the Deity with a light bulb.

cantdog

 

[English Lady]

Earl I am right with you on this. I really don't like Xmas (actually it made me scowl to type it there) because to me it does feel like taking the Christ out of it. Though the point you make is interesting Cantdog -I didn't know that.

I don't mind everybody jumping in and celebrating Christmas just acknowledge (like you do Earl) that it is a Christian festival and I'm a happy bunny

Cantdog - I have two nativities in my house, no make that three (my daughters advent calender has a stable scene on it) one is the front of a candle and sits happily by itself on a shelf but the other is a proper little nativity scene and sits under my christmas tree next to a big sparkly snowman.

Personally I see this as Keeping Christ right in there in the middle of my christmas I don't see it as cheapening the Stable and all it means at all. I guess it is a matter of different interpretation again


Sorry Amicus I seem to have changed the angle of this thread a bit! I think people are going down this different route as the one you brought up has been rehashed over and over in different guises...I think.

 

[Sunnie]

Earl I am right with you on this. I really don't like Xmas (actually it made me scowl to type it there) because to me it does feel like taking the Christ out of it. Though the point you make is interesting Cantdog -I didn't know that.

I don't mind everybody jumping in and celebrating Christmas just acknowledge (like you do Earl) that it is a Christian festival and I'm a happy bunny

I'm sorry but I really have got to cut in here. All this talk of Christmas being a Christian holiday has got my Pagan feathers ruffled. I go thru this every year with people, and every year I say I'm not going to do it again, but for some reason I just can't let it go.

And having talked myself to death on this subject already, I will simply refer you to this site: http://www.benbest.com/history/xmas.html

THIS is the true, historical meaning of Xmas, people. If Jesus was born, he was born in the spring. Not in December. Shepherds aren't out with sheep in December.

 

[English Lady]

It is not news that Jesus wasn't actually born on the 25th December *yawns* it is just the day we chose to celebrate this.

I'm not denying that it was already a festival and Christians picked on a convinient date in the middle of the cold harsh winter to decide to celebrate his birth but Christmas is the celebration of Jesus Birth. Doesn't matter if it isn't actually The day he was born.

As Earl says if you don't want to celebrate it don't. But Christmas is the Christian celebration of Jesus Birth.

 

[cantdog]

Earl's got the right end of this stick, as far as Christmas goes. And I think my pagan-inclined friends mostly just get a chuckle to see the forms the Christians are using for the old holiday. And the very name of the Easter season.

It's a damn good time of the year for a party and some fencemending with the neighbors before the really grim stuff settles onto us all. Symbols are good for both the party and the reminder of community.

cantdog

 

[Joe Wordsworth]

So, maybe I'm just out in left field, for now... but, why is it not alright for Christmas to be a Christian holiday?

 

[cantdog]

The link in Sunnie's post. She claims the forms are others', which is certainly so.

But you're wrong, Joe. The consensus is that "Christmas" is just fine as a Christian holiday. Sunnie's legitimate grievance is nullified by the eventual commonalty of all symbols.

Living in the North as I do, the serious mortal threat Winter offers is something I deal with each year. When we had the ice storm people got each other through it. A radio station acted as a clearinghouse. People with generators went house-to-house responding to other callers-in who were looking like freezing to death.

Hence the large celebration at the first bite of the season, when the sun has gone away. To remind us of our community, to share the symbols we hold in common, to give gifts and make gestures of reconciliation.

And if they also function to bring the sun back or to help the White Christ convert the heathen Norse? Oh well, you have to take the rough with the smooth.

 

[lewdandlicentious]

D'ya know, this all just bugs the fuck outta me!!

Why can't people just leave each other alone, to do as they please.

As long as they hurt no-one, what does it matter.

I don't believe in god, in any way, shape or form.

But I LOVE Christmas time.

It's all about greed if you ask me. Find someone to sue, and try to make a fast buck!

America seems to suck like that!

 

[cantdog]

And Saudi Arabia seems to such like that. All religious bigots suck like that. Super glue their hands to their ass cheeks and watch them work their way to a hospital.

"Hey, doctor? Please ream me a new asshole? Someone superglued it shut!"

And it takes acetone to dissolve that stuff, I think.

 

[fifty5]

My first thought was just to post:

Happy Yuletide everybody!

But "Goodwill to all men" is too good a message to be written off like that, no matter what banner it comes under.

I'm actually pretty proud of my local authority in respect of this sort of thing. At the moment the lights read "Happy Christmas" (and such like) but at other times of the year, they have lights for Deepawalli and Eid. Sure Bradford had riots, but they were as much, or more, between sects as between different religions.

My views about organised religions are that they are possibly THE most virulent sources of evil, but my views about (the enormous majority of) individuals who practice those religions is that they're just folk like me.

Live and let live.

Do as you would be done by!

Eff

 

[amicus]

Acetone is very cold on the skin and extremely flammable...but only works before the expoxy sets up...does not help with hardened superglue.

 

[tolyk]

Hey Cantdog, sounds like Amicus has experience with that issue, wouldn't you say so?

 

[amicus]

FiftyFive...

you said in part...

"...My views about organised religions are that they are possibly THE most virulent sources of evil, but my views about (the enormous majority of) individuals who practice those religions is that they're just folk like me.

Live and let live.

Do as you would be done by!..."

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I am certain you intended and most will take that as amelioration. I beg to differ.

Had those advocates of individual freedom and human rights had the courage to intervene in 1917, the graveyard called the Soviet Union would not have taken 65 million innocent lives.

Had the western world the courage to put the Brown Shirts down in the 1930's, there would have been no world war two and the loss of more millions of innocent life.

In the conflict between reason and faith, if mankind fails to contain the 'virulent evil' of both Christian and Muslim, we will visit Armageddon yet again.

Seasons Greetings...

amicus