Tact in beta reading- you want to be honest, but...

[MlledeLaPlumeBleu]

I'm always reading something for somebody- but among the rest, recently I got a story from someone- and I'm not entirely sure how to couch my observations. This person has has a good command of language, grammar and description. However, the story is complete cardboard- Mary Sues, cliches...it makes the assumption that we love the characters but tells us nothing about their thoughts, feelings or attributes. While I am trying, the story's complete lack of interest makes it hard to offer an constructive suggestions about structure or anything else.

I know this person is not two-dimensional. He is extremely funny, engaging, witty and able- so...how do I tell him to spread the wealth a little and put some of it into his writing?

I appeal to those with more diplomacy for suggestions...I'm not exactly Princess Tactful of Gildlily.

 

[gauchecritic]

Don't be. Tell him what you just posted. More than enough tact there. He did ask.

Or get a plume you can hide behind for being critical with hence:

Gauche

 

[CWatson]

Wow, tough situation. Good luck, mlle.

I'd have to agree with gauche on this one. There simply is no good way to tell someone their writing needs work, so you might as well just say it flat-out. You can soften it, though; I try giving people suggestions on what they could change. I do this because I try to make them feel like I'm not just cutting them down; rather, I'm interested in helping them improve their story. If doing so requires acknowledging that, right now, the story, ah, is in need of refinement, then, well, that's just the way it goes. As gauche pointed out, he DID ask.

I dunno if any of that works or not, but there's my two cents. And again, hope it turns out for the best.

 

[Madame Manga]

Many years ago, I got a couple of stark critiques from more experienced writers. The substance of them was about the same as what you are going to have to tell this person--the writing itself was good, but I relied too much on cliches. In my case, the problem wasn't so much plot and character (though I'd certainly let some critical moments crumble into illogic) as figures of speech and so on. But there were problems enough.

Once those lovely readers pointed out my faults, they stuck out like carbuncles. I couldn't believe I'd committed so many sins. ;-) And I never committed those particular ones again. I will always be grateful that those critics didn't pull their punches. It took me a little while to absorb everything they were telling me, but I recall their cautions verbatim to this day. I'm always looking for someone to tell it to me straight. My worst fear is not hearing negative comments: it's not correcting my existing problems.

Maybe this writer will think of you the same way in future. Maybe not. That's not under your control. There are blunt ways to tell the truth, and there are gentle ways. But I think you ought to tell him what he needs to hear.

MM

 

[KillerMuffin]

*blank look*

beta reading?

Mary Sues?


The best thing to do is to tell it to him straight. Tell him exactly what the problem is, why it's a problem, and how to fix it. You may have to define the problem.

Example:

You've got too much descriptive narrative in this piece. Descriptive narrative is essentially those moments in a story where the narrator tells the reader what something is like. Examples would be "The room was dark and shadowy. There was a potted plant in the corner. The cobwebs in the ceiling were a little droopier than usual." It's a problem because descriptive narrative is inherently boring. Nothing is happening. The best way to fix the problem is to show the reader what the room was like, rather than tell them that it was dark and shadow. For example, "The room always gave Mary Sue the creeps. The shadows looked like werewolves and the she was convinced the dark corners held a ghost waiting to trap the unsuspecting. Worse, they never cleaned in here. The cobwebs in the ceiling were droopier than usual."

Tactful? Maybe not. Informative? Yes. Helpful? Yes. The truth? Yes.

If this person is a close friend and can't take criticism from you, don't offer opinions on their work. I learned that the hard way when a friend of mine ripped into something I was way too proud of.

Mary Sues? I think someone has explained this one to me before. Is this a fan fiction thing?

 

[Couture]

It's alway a good idea to tell them something you liked about the story. And really, if you bombard the flower with too much fertilizer (critical comments) it can make it hard for it to dig its way out enough to grow.

 

[MlledeLaPlumeBleu]

A "Mary Sue" refers to an author proxy that is just too unbelievably perfect. This person will generally mirror a self-idealized version of the writer, who is described as inherently lovable, intelligent, attractive, irresistable- but no evidence is given to support this, other than the other characters' adoring reactions. We as readers are simply expected to take the infinitely god-like attributes of this person at face value.

Most writers are guilty of Mary Sue moments now and then- and many good writers begin with the standard Mary Sue approach, because, let's face it- people write largely for self-gratifying reasons. However, most writers eventually figure out that this kind of character perfection is off-putting to readers.

Author proxies are not inherently bad- they just need human failings and depth like all other characters...

I've have that heard Mary Sues are common in fan fiction- but they are by no means limited to it...

 

[wildsweetone]

To be tactless and uncaring as an Editor can rip an author's confidence to shreds. I have felt that way when I've handed one of my babies across for a good editing.

So long as your opinions are explained with respect for the author and their feelings, then you can't go wrong. There is no harm in letting the author know that you wish them no harm but you noticed that ....

There is no harm giving an example or two. Like KM said, it sounds much to me like a 'tell' kind of a story without enough 'showing'. Often that can lead to a very flat dull sounding story. It's difficult to explain that to an author without examples.

The author has trusted you with his/her work. They know how you normally edit (I'm assuming you've done this before for them), they will expect a similar kind of explanation as you have previously given them.

If the author is serious about improving his/her work, then they will have to learn the right perspective that is needed to hear 'criticism'. Be gentle, but be firm with your opinion.

Good luck dear.

 

[MlledeLaPlumeBleu]

Yeah, clearly the main idea isn't to immolate the writer- but I would like to tell him what I actually think, because I think he has potential. Maybe that's how I'll lead...

 

[The_Fool]

I quit writing poetry for fifteen years. I had a professor tell me that I was too vague, lacked enough real life images, blah, blah, blah. He wasn't unkind, he wasn't pompous, he was very matter of fact. He also didn't provide me direction to get out of hole. I asked, he answered and I cared about what he said. So why did I start writing poetry again? Because I felt I had something to say and decided I didn't give a fuck what he thought...

So where am I going with this? If you think he as potential, then tell him so. If you have the time, help him out. Either with resources, tutoring or pointing him at a creative writing course at the local community college. I dunno. I guess where I'm going is that he has to find his own way out of the hole. A hole of which he is unaware. You need to tell him about the hole, but it would be nice if you also could give him a boost up.

 

[Guest]

the wonders of technology

Mlle-

I do beta reading, also. Something that has made me feel better about having a positive impact on the writing is using MS Word and inserting comments into the story. Depending on the fragility of the author I tone up or down the directness, but, as others have mentioned, I am specific in my concerns and my proposed remedies.

Many times it is a "Why?" or "You haven't shown me that the character would actually do this." Being able to imbed the comments in the text helps raise questions and concerns that are specific.

Adding a paragraph at the end with a summary of your perceptions and any overarching concerns is valuable. Having the specifics above with what the impact was below ties everything together.

RumpleForeskin is brilliant at this kind of thing. There are others that pop in at the SDC that also have posted fine examples of it.

Finally, always keep in mind what he actually wants. "He who has ears to hear."

b

 

[Madame Manga]

I've gone from one extreme to the other as a beta reader. I started out blunt and straightforward, giving examples of problems and suggesting fixes. I tried to look at manuscripts in a 'professional' way, as if everyone involved was a grownup and wouldn't cry. Early on, I had a genuine pro crit from a much-published science fiction author. I didn't exactly weep, though it was a shock and a half. ;-) But I emerged from that experience a changed person, and a vastly changed writer.

I've never been paid for fiction writing, but I worked as a professional artist for many years. I know how to detach myself from my work and not take criticism as a personal slam. That is one of the most valuable skills I have ever learned, and I think it's an essential one for anyone who does creative work. I wanted to help other people get over that hurdle too. It's not easy, IMO. It often involves a few crying fits. ;-) So I tried to tell it like I saw it--the sooner you confront the pain, the better, I thought.

Then I got flamed a few times for not coddling tender newbies (or touchy veterans) and I wondered if I was going about it the wrong way. Was I only discouraging people? I scaled back. I couched everything in gentle terms, I tried to praise as much as I criticized, and I generally bent over backwards not to hurt anyone's feelings.

Boy, those crits took forever. I didn't do many of them, either--it was a big stress on my system every time I opened up a story. How do you waltz around all the problems and still engage them? How do you say things that need to be said when you are primarily concerned with how the recipient is going to take it? Maybe some people have that skill; I'm not sure that I do. At any rate, it takes me a lot of energy to accomplish, energy that could have gone towards the crit itself.

Other people approached my work in the same way and ended up telling me almost nothing. What the hell do you do with a crit that says, "I couldn't really find anything wrong with this story"? I knew I wasn't a perfect writer! No freaking way! I asked for a life preserver and they tossed me a straw just so I wouldn't think I was drowning.

I've done several crits on the SDC now, preceded by some in the feedback forum. I started out in my gentler mode (I think) but I gradually migrated back to my original mode, because that seems to me at rock bottom to be the only genuine way to go. I don't want to be an asshole. My intention is always to help, not to show off or to put down. I'm not dead sure I'm coming across that way, though so far no one on Lit has told me I'm a cruel bitch. ;-) But I hope, and believe, that I have at least been useful.

OK, long and wandering post--but I think my point is that there is no point in doing crit if your main intention is not to offend. Crit has to be about the story, not about its author, IMO. Detach the person from the words, or all you have is a bunch of writers patting each other on the back.

MM

 

[bridgeburner]

MM,

You cruel bitch. I'd pick you as an editor precisely because of that honesty. Of course, my skin is fairly thick and my ego strong enough to discard advice I truly don't agree with.

A lot of writers I've encountered are quite a bit more fragile and I empathize with your dilemma. I don't like to make people feel shitty. At the same time I don't like to compromise myself by lying and blowing sunshine up somebody's ass, either. I don't see the point in offering to give a critique and then not doing so. It's a waste of everyone's time.



MlleBP,

I'd say be honest as you have been here. If this person is a close friend, it may cause friction and that's certainly something to consider, but I think it comes down to the fact that being honest is more valuable in a friendship than being a yes-man.



--B

 

[jfinn]

I do a lot of beta reading. I used to be gentle, but I finally decided that if that's what they want then we'd better get it established at the beginning. I don't want to waste my time with someone who isn't willing to listen to what I have to say, especially since I only do this when they asked me too.

That doesn't mean I'm cruel though. I try really hard to balance every negative comment with a positive. That isn't as difficult as it sounds because I wouldn't be reading there stories if I didn't already know they could write.

I also make sure that they know this is how it's going to be from the first. My standard comment is "Fans can write you love letters; I'm going to tell you how I think you can make this a better story."

This seems to do the trick. At least they're all still talking to me.

Jayne

 

[Rainbow Skin]

I think constructive criticism doesn't have to include dollops of positive comments. You can say 'the grammar's fine' or 'you know the basics of moving the story forward' or other anodynes like that, then move in to the things that need work.

You can put in a lot of commentary without it coming over as too negative -- I hope. Everyone reacts differently so you can't be sure. Say 'this needs to be done more carefully', or 'you're not paying enough attention to that', or 'something I notice you keep doing is such-and-such'.

Then give detailed examples so they know you've thought about it and you're not just sniping, and it's clear your suggestions improve on the original.

Some people are never going to improve. Others might. You might be able to significantly influence their style for the better. If you can't, they're probably not going to notice the difference anyway.

So try to cover all the things most wrong with it, but without making it a personal failure. Say these things are common in beginning writers and it's easy enough to learn not to do them.

 

[TheEarl]

Compliment him/her at the beginning and then do it again at the end. The best thing to say is use the words you said here: "You're a good writer and you've got tons of potential, but I think you'd be so much better if you did..."

The Earl

 

[Svenskaflicka]

The author is a man, right? Then be painfully honest. Men are masochists, they love women who will tell them up front what they think, no matter how harsh it may sound.

 

[MlledeLaPlumeBleu]

Are you sure you want to talk to me? I am Draco whatsisfuck, after all...

 

[Svenskaflicka]

Yes, absolutely! This is my revenge: giving you bad advice that will alienate you from all your friends if you choose to follow them.















Something Draco might have done, I might add.