Symbolism

[BobbyBrandt]

There have been some heated discussions related to the merits of a story having the coveted red H. Some like the visibility it provides readers, while others feel it is redundant and unnecessary since the scores are displayed anyway. I don't believe a consensus has ever been established relative to the influence that the symbol has for readers, but I'll let that slide for now.

What I am curious about here, is what influence any writers have seen that can be attributed to a couple of other symbols, namely the blue W given to monthly and contest winning stories, or the green E given to stories chosen by Laurel as an "Editor's Choice". Can you point to stats or other evidence that prove that these symbols carry any weight with readers?

 

[MelissaBaby]

There have been some heated discussions related to the merits of a story having the coveted red H. Some like the visibility it provides readers, while others feel it is redundant and unnecessary since the scores are displayed anyway. I don't believe a consensus has ever been established relative to the influence that the symbol has for readers, but I'll let that slide for now.

What I am curious about here, is what influence any writers have seen that can be attributed to a couple of other symbols, namely the blue W given to monthly and contest winning stories, or the green E given to stories chosen by Laurel as an "Editor's Choice". Can you point to stats or other evidence that prove that these symbols carry any weight with readers?

I can't speak to the E, I've never received one.

With the W's, I don't think they have much effect, because they are awarded too long after publication. The announcement that a story has won an award can give it a nice boost, but I see no evidence that my winning stories got any long term advantage from the designation.

I like seeing them there on my profile, though.

 

[SimonDoom]

My non-scientific reply.

Visibility helps get you more readers, more favorable comments, and more favorites and followers. It helps quite a bit, for instance, if your story manages to place high on one of the toplists, either for stories overall or within a category. I've observed a noticeable effect.

It helps to be nominated for a contest. I've had two stories nominated for annual contests. In The Hallway was nominated for best story in 2016 in the BDSM category. During its nomination period, daily views skyrocketed from what they had been. In fact, that's how I found out it had been nominated. I noticed a bizarre spike in views and tried to figure out why it was happening.

My story Teddy Bear was nominated for best Toy & Masturbation story for 2021, and it won, so it has a blue W next to it. The nomination boosted its views somewhat, but the W has done nothing long term. The story was published in the fall of 2021. In April 2022 it was getting about 100 views per day. Now that it has a W, it gets about 42 views per day. The W does not increase visibility. The story was doing better when it was still fairly high on the 12-month Toy&Masturbation story toplist, but now that it dropped off of that, it no longer helps. The symbol appears to mean little, if anything.

Anytime you debate "merits," you must define what you mean by "merit." What matters to you? For me that answer is clear: I want to maximize the appreciative audience for my stories. I like the idea of my stories giving pleasure to as many people as possible. Everything else is subsidiary to that. Things like contest wins, symbols, and scores are nice, but only to the extent that they help me achieve what I really want. I tend to think people overvalue high scores and red Hs and symbols, in general.

 

[BobbyBrandt]

My non-scientific reply.

Visibility helps get you more readers, more favorable comments, and more favorites and followers. It helps quite a bit, for instance, if your story manages to place high on one of the toplists, either for stories overall or within a category. I've observed a noticeable effect.

It helps to be nominated for a contest. I've had two stories nominated for annual contests. In The Hallway was nominated for best story in 2016 in the BDSM category. During its nomination period, daily views skyrocketed from what they had been. In fact, that's how I found out it had been nominated. I noticed a bizarre spike in views and tried to figure out why it was happening.

My story Teddy Bear was nominated for best Toy & Masturbation story for 2021, and it won, so it has a blue W next to it. The nomination boosted its views somewhat, but the W has done nothing long term. The story was published in the fall of 2021. In April 2022 it was getting about 100 views per day. Now that it has a W, it gets about 42 views per day. The W does not increase visibility. The story was doing better when it was still fairly high on the 12-month Toy&Masturbation story toplist, but now that it dropped off of that, it no longer helps. The symbol appears to mean little, if anything.

Anytime you debate "merits," you must define what you mean by "merit." What matters to you? For me that answer is clear: I want to maximize the appreciative audience for my stories. I like the idea of my stories giving pleasure to as many people as possible. Everything else is subsidiary to that. Things like contest wins, symbols, and scores are nice, but only to the extent that they help me achieve what I really want. I tend to think people overvalue high scores and red Hs and symbols, in general.

First, thanks for your stat info. I only have one "W", and that was for my very first story back in 2014. It still receives around 1800 new views per month, but I can't attribute that to the "H" or the "W" because I believe that it being the foundation for a universe of stories that I have added sequels to over the years, is what motivates readers to seek it out more than the symbols do.

I would consider "merit" to be indicative of influences that draw readers to a story. In this context, I would focus on factors derived from the system and not controlled by the writer, such as score, favorites, views by other readers, and symbols. Ignore if you can, factors under your control, such as title, description, and tags.

 

[MrPixel]

Slap me down if I've missed something obvious, but the 'H' and 'W' are somewhat meaningless when they appear in the general story indexes, especially that there are so few of them. They're lost in the noise. Most non-authors won't grok the significance.

The contest winner listings I found linked from the master index haven't been updated since 2015. It seems to me that the contests in their current state are - don't shoot me - meaningless attaboys among the writers, with no promotion to speak of outside of the forums. For contests to mean something there needs to be a separate index to the winners linked on the front page. If contests are separating the wheat from the chaff and are intended to show-off the best LitE has to offer, why are we hiding them?

 

[AwkwardlySet]

For me as a reader, seeing an E or a W on a story meant absolutely nothing before I delved into writing myself. Somehow, it had much less impact than that piercing red H. Now that I am somewhat more involved, it still means absolutely nothing, especially as I don't see W having a much different meaning that H, as it's still based on readers' votes with all the same problems, biases and so on. I've rarely seen that E, but learning that it's Laurel who gives it, it still means absolutely nothing, as there is no reason for me to hold her personal choice in any high regard. I don't mean it to be offensive, it's just that I don't know anything about her, her own writing, taste and critical abilities, so it would be silly of me to give any significance to it.

 

[oggbashan]

I habve Blue W s and Green Es.

But because the Blue W happens at the end of a contest the only thing I have noticed is a drop in ratings once the W is visible, presumably from people who didn't think the story was good enought to deserve the W.

As for a Green E - that is Laurel's personal opinion. My E for a story has never had a red H.

Red H's? I'm not bothered whether a story has a red H or not. Many of my stories don't. What matters to me is more whether I am satisfied with the story.

 

[BobbyBrandt]

For me as a reader, seeing an E or a W on a story meant absolutely nothing before I delved into writing myself. Somehow, it had much less impact than that piercing red H. Now that I am somewhat more involved, it still means absolutely nothing, especially as I don't see W having a much different meaning that H, as it's still based on readers' votes with all the same problems, biases and so on. I've rarely seen that E, but learning that it's Laurel who gives it, it still means absolutely nothing, as there is no reason for me to hold her personal choice in any high regard. I don't mean it to be offensive, it's just that I don't know anything about her, her own writing, taste and critical abilities, so it would be silly of me to give any significance to it.

You're right in the fact that there aren't many 'E's", which to some extent is a shame since it might give us an insight into the mind of the person who makes the ultimate decision on what gets posted here. Nothing more.

 

[KeithD]

For me as a reader, seeing an E or a W on a story meant absolutely nothing before I delved into writing myself. Somehow, it had much less impact than that piercing red H. Now that I am somewhat more involved, it still means absolutely nothing, especially as I don't see W having a much different meaning that H, as it's still based on readers' votes with all the same problems, biases and so on. I've rarely seen that E, but learning that it's Laurel who gives it, it still means absolutely nothing, as there is no reason for me to hold her personal choice in any high regard. I don't mean it to be offensive, it's just that I don't know anything about her, her own writing, taste and critical abilities, so it would be silly of me to give any significance to it.

That's a view I only really see from those who don't have a blue W or green E here yet. Sorry, but there it is. Pretty much anyone who has a story with some form of award marking are happy they have it, no matter what they post about it.

 

[AwkwardlySet]

That's a view I only really see from those who don't have a blue W or green E here yet. Sorry, but there it is. Pretty much anyone who has a story with some form of award marking are happy they have it, no matter what they post about it.

Whatever you might want to think, I am not envious of those letters, I just don't see them as materially different from red H. I do believe writers who won those letters are proud of them, and they should be, same as many people who said they loved their red H, myself included. It is one kind of mark of your success or something. Maybe if I ever get a W or E I will wear them proudly, but I don't think I'll change my opinion, because I don't hold the red H in high regard even if every story I wrote has one.

 

[KeithD]

I stand pat on what I posted.

 

[AwkwardlySet]

I stand pat on what I posted.

Whatever rocks your boat man.

 

[TarnishedPenny]

I would say that all three denote stories which are exceptional. I don’t necessarily mean ‘good’, but they have earned the favourable attention of readers and/or editors. That implies that they are in some way noticeable, different. Ergo, stories so denoted are probably better bets than those lacking them, especially for first explorations.

The trick knee to that, of course, is that nobody knows what criteria the site uses for ‘E’ and that Hs and Ws more-or-less indicate popularity contest winners. Equally important is that my tastes often vary wildly from that of the Thundering Herd and quite a few ‘winners’ aren’t to my tastes at all. Still, it’s a place to start, a factor.

 

[MelissaBaby]

Whatever you might want to think, I am not envious of those letters, I just don't see them as materially different from red H. I do believe writers who won those letters are proud of them, and they should be, same as many people who said they loved their red H, myself included. It is one kind of mark of your success or something. Maybe if I ever get a W or E I will wear them proudly, but I don't think I'll change my opinion, because I don't hold the red H in high regard even if every story I wrote has one.

They may not be 'materially different" but they are different in that they are harder to achieve.

 

[AwkwardlySet]

They may not be 'materially different" but they are different in that they are harder to achieve.

I suppose that is right. It is also harder to achieve a 4.6 rating than 4.5 for example, or to write a 20k words story than a 2k words one. I don't see anyone talking about story lengths or scores as particular landmarks though. It is just one of many ways to measure something in a likely biased way. I have no intention to imply you are bragging or anything like that, I am just being consistent with what I've grumbled about in other threads about ratings and scores, while maybe somewhat pissed off by Keith's implication that I was dismissing W and E out of envy.

 

[KeithD]

I'll stand pat on my post.

 

[Duleigh]

I see these as "Ribbons" - acknowledgement of accomplishment, recognition. My military hating cousin once asked me, "Why do you idiots kill yourselves just to get a bit of colored ribbons to wear on your uniforms?" No military man ever put his own life at risk for a ribbon, the ribbon means somebody gives a damn. The Like the E, H, and W, a ribbon is not a reward, it's acknowledgement of a job well done.

I will probably never get an E unless a miracle happens, or for that matter a W, but I'm not going to stop trying, however the E, H, and W, does more than give us pretty colors on our works list, if we all try to get as many as we can it gives our readers a better batch of stories to read.

 

[lovecraft68]

I suppose that is right. It is also harder to achieve a 4.6 rating than 4.5 for example, or to write a 20k words story than a 2k words one. I don't see anyone talking about story lengths or scores as particular landmarks though. It is just one of many ways to measure something in a likely biased way. I have no intention to imply you are bragging or anything like that, I am just being consistent with what I've grumbled about in other threads about ratings and scores, while maybe somewhat pissed off by Keith's implication that I was dismissing W and E out of envy.

The green E is the opinion of one person, and one person only.
The H and the W are based on the opinions many people.
But they are all subjective, just one means a lot more people liked it.

As for what a Green E is worth, well Keith has some under his other pen name used to get them regularly, then he had an exchange with laurel on the boards for calling out site BS, she called him a troll and he hasn't gotten any since.

It has nothing to do with talent, but playing ball, and TBH it just makes the story into a bullseye for the trolls.

 

[MillieDynamite]

I've got red H's, and they are nice. However, I prefer the 's to H's any day of the week. The W and E are just pipe dreams for me, and yes, I'd love to have them, but it isn't necessary for my personal self-worth.

 

[KeithD]

As I noted, those who don't have them . . .

 

[gunhilltrain]

I see these as "Ribbons" - acknowledgement of accomplishment, recognition. My military hating cousin once asked me, "Why do you idiots kill yourselves just to get a bit of colored ribbons to wear on your uniforms?" No military man ever put his own life at risk for a ribbon, the ribbon means somebody gives a damn. The Like the E, H, and W, a ribbon is not a reward, it's acknowledgement of a job well done.

I will probably never get an E unless a miracle happens, or for that matter a W, but I'm not going to stop trying, however the E, H, and W, does more than give us pretty colors on our works list, if we all try to get as many as we can it gives our readers a better batch of stories to read.

I've never been in the military, much less in combat. My understanding is that people in wars fight for their comrades first, then to protect their homelands. I suspect that few are considering medals during their actions. I could go into more detail about these motives and when they do and do not apply, but that's too much for a post here. Perhaps anybody who steps onto a battlefield deserves a medal of some kind. In fact, most militaries give out "campaign" medals for merely participating in a certain battle or war.

 

[MillieDynamite]

And I admitted I'd like them, but they weren't necessary. As you well know, necessary and desirable are different things. I desire to win the lottery, but it isn't at all necessary and like W and E nothing I waste my time thinking on.

 

[Duleigh]

It has nothing to do with talent, but playing ball, and TBH it just makes the story into a bullseye for the trolls.

I'm probably never getting the Big E. I try to be polite, but when Laurel... or Manu... or whoever puts stories up chopped the first line off of two of my stories, one of them a contest entry, I got upset.

 

[Duleigh]

I've never been in the military, much less in combat. My understanding is that people in wars fight for their comrades first, then to protect their homelands. I suspect that few are considering medals during their actions. I could go into more detail about these motives and when they do and do not apply, but that's too much for a post here. Perhaps anybody who steps onto a battlefield deserves a medal of some kind. In fact, most militaries give out "campaign" medals for merely participating in a certain battle or war.

You're very right, many medals are a surprise, and the big rush is the feeling that someone noticed! Someone gave a damn! I do have a couple "campaign medals," none were fun even though most of my work was "in the rear with the gear." Those ribbons are not worth any points toward promotion and are a thanks from the host country. GH Chesterton put it most succinctly when he said:

A Soldier fights, not because he hates what is in front of him, but he loves what is behind him.

 

[KeithD]

If you have the trifecta of extra letter/color markings on your stories you don't really need to justify them. It's enough that, as something extra in both highlighting and color, they attract readers--and they do. You are left if you don't have the trifecta (or have just one) of the extra letter-color markings to attack them as meaningless and to come up with all sorts of reason why that is so--if this really bothers you, to foam at the mouth while you're doing so. And if it really, REALLY bothers you, you can trot around to see who does have them so you can specifically disparage that to make yourself feel better.