Switching for Service

[landcruisergal]

I can dom my boy, but have trouble with my PYL present.
Last time we played with another sub, as I was in the alpha role, and "topping" her, and I found it hard to go from 'top', which is something I now get into with enthusiasm now, then back to the submissive I wish to be with my PYL. I became cheeky and exhibited behavior I had never done in his presence before. I was ashamed of myself, in essence.
My PYL also tolerated my behaviour to a degree, as he has helped and fostered my development and enjoyment of the dominant role.
So I ended up feeling like I was working beside him and not below him, where I wanted to be!
'topspace' is quite heady for me, and it wasn't just a case of 'going thru the motions' for his entertainment.It was confusing.

In saying that, my pyl started his exploration in the dom role, and is still friends with a girl he used to play with. She has asked for an opportunity to play, and I am considering making him top her.Simply to examine his reactions.
He claims it was thru that experience that he decided to submit.Not that he dislikes it, he just doesn't get any deep sense of satisfaction out of it. He did it essentially to please her...and now I want him to please her to please me.. And I am curious to see if it effects his behavior, and interogate him about it afterwards.

 

[snowy ciara]

Actually, you have explained perfectly why I feel this is such a devoted form of service for me. For me to do this requires stepping outside my comfort zone in a big way. I don't know how to do it, it's not in my nature to do it, and it's scary for me. I guess it's a mindfuck for me more than anything else - a game to see how much fear I can overcome.

It makes sense, then. I hesitate to call it a test, because I sort of think "testing" one's submission in such a manner is a bad thing. Maybe it's just semantics. As a sub, I'd expect to have my limits stretched, but thinking of it as "testing" puts me in a "you would if you loved me" point of view, and that hits a few emotional buttons for me. It's sort of funny how "testing one's submission" results in such a negative response and "pushing one's limits" doesn't. It's amazing how much of this emotional/sensual response is changed when our "conscious" brain takes over.

 

[Etoile]

I would have called it "testing one's limits" - you're right, it's funny how semantics matter in something like this.

 

[esclave_PP]

I would have called it "testing one's limits" - you're right, it's funny how semantics matter in something like this.

Very true. In all seriousness, when Master had me domme another female, even just for play, to flog her and stuff I was so unsure. I didn't want to hurt her. When her backside was getting very red, I kept looking over at him and he urged me on. I felt totally uncomfy, but knew he'd stop me before anything happened. Was weird and like snowy, I did have some physical reactions to it, mostly ones like, "I reallllllyl don't wanna do this...."

 

[BlueSugar]

I've never Topped in play.
And I've never been asked to fully top in play either.

When a third is added on its rare occasion, I end up taking the roll of almost a mommy sub - making sure everyone is comfortable and enjoying themselves, isn't intimidated to use red/yellow etc...

In the vanilla world I've had to be dominant, and I've done it in a teasing way, more like depriving them of sensations and actions. Tell them not to kiss me when I kiss them. I could never with my own strength hold someone down, and vanillas wouldn't actually go into bondage... so using their sheer will and self control they would be asked not to touch me - I would stop whatever I was doing if they did.
Leaving me with the playground of their body -- sneaky me -- I was just using this to incourage the animal, dominant, lust, beast ... to come out of them.

"teach" them what I like so they do it on their own, in a sensative so I don't scare them off way, to get them more gutsy with trying new things.
I remember when my previous boyfriend figured out that I wanted to be just 'taken' and *gasp* even spanked. He was beside himself, and utterly confused and surprised that I actually really liked it. It turned him on to turn me on. But I needed more then borderline kinky vanilla sex.

I grew tired of this, and ended up finding M.
He always wanted to take bdsm further but his previous girlfriends were too vanilla. And hes a natural top in vanilla sex as well. He asks me to do some things, and I do whatever I can ... but if he ever asked me to really Top him, I could if I wrote out a step by step scene.
I could never just wing it. I've tried, I get bored after 20 minutes ... lol
I don't think I could do it for more then however long the scene takes. It would have to be carefully written out and memorized like an actual play.

I don't know if I could actually top another woman, it would have to be written out and memorized and I'd have to do some psyching up as well. I know for a fact I'd rather be submissive to another female though, and if I ever were to seek a relationship to bring in a third or be on my own and seek a female/female relationship ... I would need to be the more submissive one.

I just don't really have it in me to be a real top, I'd probablly make a good Sensualist Domme type deal though. Giving them what they'd need because it makes me happy and it makes me happy in turn. *shrug* eh, not even I guess... maybe I just make a good girlfriend period.

 

[Netzach]

Very true. In all seriousness, when Master had me domme another female, even just for play, to flog her and stuff I was so unsure. I didn't want to hurt her. When her backside was getting very red, I kept looking over at him and he urged me on. I felt totally uncomfy, but knew he'd stop me before anything happened. Was weird and like snowy, I did have some physical reactions to it, mostly ones like, "I reallllllyl don't wanna do this...."

To be fair, I was pretty freaked out the first time I flogged someone else too. It's very counterintuitive to actually go hitting people, no matter how much you may or may not have masturbated to the idea prior.

 

[esclave_PP]

To be fair, I was pretty freaked out the first time I flogged someone else too. It's very counterintuitive to actually go hitting people, no matter how much you may or may not have masturbated to the idea prior.

heheheheh you know what goes on in my head. Yeah, I didn't really enjoy it, I did communicate that with Master.

 

[ownedsubgal]

this is a difficult scenario to contemplate. as impossible and against all natural order as such a thing would be, if my Master commanded me to "top" him, my immediate reaction would be horror. i would need to know exactly what he meant by "top", and as to whether i could physically perform the acts or not, i'm not sure. there would be a major conflict between my natural instinct to obey, and my natural instinct to submit. if in order to obey i had to NOT submit, i have no idea what i would do honestly. if it were something that involved me being sexually dominant, or physically striking him no matter how lightly, i probably would not be able to do it. i would not refuse, i just wouldn't be able to make myself do it. just as i could not force myself to pull a trigger and murder another person, even if ordered to do so. i don't think being submissive is just about obedience...i think one must also BE submissive. likewise, i don't think being Dominant is just about giving orders...one must also BE Dominant. a so-called Dominant who orders someone to spank him, is no more Dominant than i am imo.
so...i probably would be unable to obey in such a situation, and at the same time i would feel betrayed and deceived to the utmost...because here all along i had thought i had given myself to a strong, Dominant Man. here i thought i had a true Master. our whole relationship would have been a lie...it would break my heart and perhaps my sanity. i could obviously never see him in the same way again, and yes i would beg for release...whether or not he granted my request for release, the rest of my days would be miserable.

as for being ordered to top someone else...my feelings would be the same.

 

[shy slave]

this is a difficult scenario to contemplate. as impossible and against all natural order as such a thing would be, if my Master commanded me to "top" him, my immediate reaction would be horror. i would need to know exactly what he meant by "top", and as to whether i could physically perform the acts or not, i'm not sure. there would be a major conflict between my natural instinct to obey, and my natural instinct to submit. if in order to obey i had to NOT submit, i have no idea what i would do honestly. if it were something that involved me being sexually dominant, or physically striking him no matter how lightly, i probably would not be able to do it. i would not refuse, i just wouldn't be able to make myself do it. just as i could not force myself to pull a trigger and murder another person, even if ordered to do so. i don't think being submissive is just about obedience...i think one must also BE submissive. likewise, i don't think being Dominant is just about giving orders...one must also BE Dominant. a so-called Dominant who orders someone to spank him, is no more Dominant than i am imo.
so...i probably would be unable to obey in such a situation, and at the same time i would feel betrayed and deceived to the utmost...because here all along i had thought i had given myself to a strong, Dominant Man. here i thought i had a true Master. our whole relationship would have been a lie...it would break my heart and perhaps my sanity. i could obviously never see him in the same way again, and yes i would beg for release...whether or not he granted my request for release, the rest of my days would be miserable.

as for being ordered to top someone else...my feelings would be the same.

I agree with you osg.

I too would have conflict between obeying and the horror of having to deliver physical pain to another person.

My ex once gave me the flogger and invited me to use it one him. It was an invite not an order. I couldn't do it. I just put it down and walked away.

I have threaten to Dominate people but I know I could not carry it through, although there are some people on here who make the palm of my hand itch sometimes (you know who you are )

I am the wrong person to surmise if I am naturally submissive, but I agree with you regarding Dominant men.
They have to BE it, not just switch it on and off for a scene or period of time.
That said I also expect them to be confident enough to show their emotions and feelings.
Otherwise they end up with breakdowns or classified as assholes.
I understand when you say I could obviously never see him in the same way again
I too would find it difficult.
Its one of the reasons I admire switches.
I still struggle with how PYLs manage to respect a pyl after they have beaten and humilitated them.

For me, personally, it would mess with my mind and change the relationship into something I may not cope with.

 

[catalina_francisco]

But osg, I think it comes down to whether in so doing you would be imposing your view of submission over that of the Master you had vowed to trust and obey. You would be judging his right to issue such an order which in turn is demonstrating you do not have 100% trust in the ability of that person to know what they are doing, or to be doing what is right. IMHO, perhaps being ordered to top another might just remind you what submission and obedience is all about....that being what the Dominant sees as fit and requires for his amusement or whatever reason, not what you visualise as the way you choose to submit on your terms and preferences, and your limits....no?

Catalina

 

[shy slave]

But osg, I think it comes down to whether in so doing you would be imposing your view of submission over that of the Master you had vowed to trust and obey. You would be judging his right to issue such an order which in turn is demonstrating you do not have 100% trust in the ability of that person to know what they are doing, or to be doing what is right. IMHO, perhaps being ordered to top another might just remind you what submission and obedience is all about....that being what the Dominant sees as fit and requires for his amusement or whatever reason, not what you visualise as the way you choose to submit on your terms and preferences, and your limits....no?

Catalina

Oh now you have confused me

I can see both sides of what you and osg saying.

I would hate it if I had to switch as part of my submission to him.

My face would show how much I hated it and then I would be punished (I have discovered that already )

Perhaps it is imposing a view of submission on him, but if it had been discussed previously as a 'limit' would he still feel comfortable about asking it to happen?

OTOH if its not been discussed as a limit would being able to talk about it and explain how it would affect you as a person make a difference to the when, where aspects if not the final outcome.
Working towards it as oppose to a big step into it.

Now I have confused myself.
I just hope he doesn't wander into this thread and get ideas.

 

[catalina_francisco]

I agree with you osg.

I too would have conflict between obeying and the horror of having to deliver physical pain to another person.

My ex once gave me the flogger and invited me to use it one him. It was an invite not an order. I couldn't do it. I just put it down and walked away.

I have threaten to Dominate people but I know I could not carry it through, although there are some people on here who make the palm of my hand itch sometimes (you know who you are )

I am the wrong person to surmise if I am naturally submissive, but I agree with you regarding Dominant men.
They have to BE it, not just switch it on and off for a scene or period of time.
That said I also expect them to be confident enough to show their emotions and feelings.
Otherwise they end up with breakdowns or classified as assholes.
I understand when you say I could obviously never see him in the same way again
I too would find it difficult.
Its one of the reasons I admire switches.
I still struggle with how PYLs manage to respect a pyl after they have beaten and humilitated them.

For me, personally, it would mess with my mind and change the relationship into something I may not cope with.

But would you like osg feel the same if you were ordered to top another, not your Dominant? I went through the 'I just can't do it' thing and found out that it was not about what I thought I could or could not do, or what I wanted to do, but what he wanted me to do. That to me is no less Dominant than if he ordered me to serve someone else, or him even...perhaps more so as it demonstrates a twist and in our case, a deep insight as to what would be most benificial despite it seeming to go against all we were about. He showed what I always wanted in a Dominant.....understanding and a deep insight into what was going on inside me and needed a huge shock to open my eyes to it....and no, that was not a need for me to top or be a switch but tied much more to submission and how it truly was his will that was important, not my desire and image of what should/could be.

If I had dug my heels in for ever more and refused, it would have disappointed him and made him question my submission as a reality, suggesting it was more a fantasy where all was fine as long as he fit our activities and his dominance into my rose coloured image of perfection and 'how things are done'. LOL, he doesn't often accept 'I can't' as a logical response as he can show me that physically and psychologically it is not impossible as long as I focus on his needs over mine.


Catalina

 

[shy slave]

But would you like osg feel the same if you were ordered to top another, not your Dominant? I went through the 'I just can't do it' thing and found out that it was not about what I thought I could or could not do, or what I wanted to do, but what he wanted me to do. That to me is no less Dominant than if he ordered me to serve someone else, or him even...perhaps more so as it demonstrates a twist and in our case, a deep insight as to what would be most benificial despite it seeming to go against all we were about. He showed what I always wanted in a Dominant.....understanding and a deep insight into what was going on inside me and needed a huge shock to open my eyes to it....and no, that was not a need for me to top or be a switch but tied much more to submission and how it truly was his will that was important, not my desire and image of what should/could be.

If I had dug my heels in for ever more and refused, it would have disappointed him and made him question my submission as a reality, suggesting it was more a fantasy where all was fine as long as he fit our activities and his dominance into my rose coloured image of perfection and 'how things are done'. LOL, he doesn't often accept 'I can't' as a logical response as he can show me that physically and psychologically it is not impossible as long as I focus on his needs over mine.


Catalina

I think my mind is coming around to the idea of 'serving' another person but topping another person would, at this point, be as osg described it.

Catalina I hate it when you use reasoned argument to make me think about all the aspects of something I don't want to do!

I would feel terrible if he had to remind me its not about me and what I think I can or cannot manage.
If, as you suggest, he went further and told me of his disappointment in me and questioned my submission I would want to curl up and hide away with shame.

'I cant' has always been a reasonable argument in my eyes, but when you put it against the level of my submission and devotion to him then adding into the mix a line about focusing on his needs not mine I can see my 'reasoned arguement' slipping out of my grasp.

Perhaps if I knew why he wanted me to, it would help get my mind around such a thing.
But the idea of topping someone feels so 'wrong'.
I know you have worked closely with people over a number of years and care deeply in a professional sense for people, how do you switch that off to enable you to go against your natural wish to 'care' and 'make things right' for people?

PS Next time you want to give the PYL side could you lock the thread so he can't read how to make me feel so guilty about not completely submitting to him ~thanks

edit for spelling~what else lol

 

[catalina_francisco]

Perhaps if I knew why he wanted me to, it would help get my mind around such a thing.
But the idea of topping someone feels so 'wrong'.
I know you have worked closely with people over a number of years and care deeply in a professional sense for people, how do you switch that off to enable you to go against your natural wish to 'care' and 'make things right' for people?

LOL, well believe me, I am far from perfect and I disobey, so don't put me on a pedestal or feel I am better. OK, so part of the process I went through to get past that 'I just can't do that' phase. Firstly, he didn't feel I needed to know at that point why he required this of me (and in truth I only have been told even now a very minimal amount of the whole of why he did it)...but he did remind me I had said I trusted him and had surrendered my right to any limits and any refusal to do anything he deemed necessary or even just fun for him. He does listen to my reasons why I think it is not a good idea, but he then makes his judgement on whether he agrees there is real cause for concern, or whether he feels it is still something he wants/needs to do.

So being in that position and realising he was not about to back down made me examine everything under a microscope, which did not always come out looking pretty. I decided I had to do it and also do it well so I would not disappoint or embarrass him....so then the question was 'how?'. It came down to looking at my needs and desires as a submissive, what I enjoyed and needed to feel happy, how I found peace and challenge in submission and craved pain delivered for the love of pain as opposed to punishment. Then it became much easier. I realised it was actually being nice to whoever I topped because to think otherwise was to then equate what F did to me as abuse, and that it is not. I knew any sub willing to try this was going to do it because it answered their need, so to not give them what they wanted and expected was not only damaging in my own relationship, but also was going to be denying them pleasure and an experience they wanted and needed.

Thinking that way also allowed me to gain confidence I could actually do a fair job at it as long as I could switch my thinking to how they would be feeling, what they would be craving, what they might enjoy, more so than what I was doing and why, whether it featured on my list of things I wanted to do or not. I also decided to look at it from a creative POV and found that helped heaps. I love creating and have an active imagination, so why not utilise it to help me through this and also to maybe give them an experience they would remember favourably? It soon became much more interesting when looking at it with all those factors involved.

I took the time to talk to the person, get to know them a bit, their experience, their hopes in terms of the experience, what they wanted to try, what they had tried...and took it from there. It became an act of submission to Amo which required me to accept another's submission as being just as important, fragile, and real as my own, and my responsibility to fulfil the needs of Amo through fulfilling another submissives needs. I became the tool by which submission was exercised in an unconventional way, but perhaps a way which highlighted that submission even more as the visual role was not the role to which I identified and felt at home in....it meant I had to work, I had to think, I had to sacrifice my needs/wants to fulfil those I was both ordered and requested to, not just go with what came naturally.

Catalina

 

[catalina_francisco]

I find the word ‘true’ interesting in its usage; it immediately creates a boundary between whatever is the so-called ‘true’ dominance and the ‘not true’ dominance. It is funny to see how people always feel the need to put themselves above others, not a very submissive feeling if you ask me. To me true dominance is what I make of it for me, and true dominance for another is what they make of it themselves for themselves.

Now coming back to this very interesting subject; it is a very common thing for Dominants to ask at one time or another of their property, to either dominate another or in some cases, even themselves. The old guard was mentioned earlier by Etoile. To them a Dominant had to first be a submissive before being a Dominant. A theory not unlike mentioned by Sir Quam.

In the Roman times most households existed out of large numbers of slaves. Simple tasks, such as the master's bath, would require the attendance of more than one slave. A slave was used to take the children to school. In the households of the rich served many slaves, they were divided into groups of ten, each under orders of a foreman which was also a slave. The running of the household was often left in the hands of a freed slave, the so-called procurator (or atriensis). So even in those days slaves would dominate other slaves and be dominated not only by their owners but also by other slaves.

It is not uncommon when in poly relationships to have a Dominant (m/f) and a top Slave (m/f), most Dominants are pretty lazy (with the exception of myself of course ) and find it easy to have a slave who they trust above everything to take care of those matters that need to be taken care of. It makes for interesting play, and it increases by tenfold the possibilities in scening. Of course there are persons out there who have in built hard limits which they can not break nor want to break. That is why there has to be discussion and negotiation between the involved parties and that is when it has to be agreed to have it as a hard limit or not.

Of course for those of us who are in relationships without limits this can be a real issue, in a non limitless relationship there no hard limits, so there is also no protection for the slave who cannot dominate but is ordered to dominate. Playing with a mind who can not dominate and forcing it to submit by dominating others is extremely interesting and very cruel/sadistic. I think it is the ultimate mind fuck. I suggest to all Dominants who have not tried this out yet to do so (but be aware of the emotional backlash and mess you will have to clean up afterwards.)

Francisco.

 

[shy slave]

LOL, well believe me, I am far from perfect and I disobey, so don't put me on a pedestal or feel I am better. OK, so part of the process I went through to get past that 'I just can't do that' phase. Firstly, he didn't feel I needed to know at that point why he required this of me (and in truth I only have been told even now a very minimal amount of the whole of why he did it)...but he did remind me I had said I trusted him and had surrendered my right to any limits and any refusal to do anything he deemed necessary or even just fun for him. He does listen to my reasons why I think it is not a good idea, but he then makes his judgement on whether he agrees there is real cause for concern, or whether he feels it is still something he wants/needs to do.

So being in that position and realising he was not about to back down made me examine everything under a microscope, which did not always come out looking pretty. I decided I had to do it and also do it well so I would not disappoint or embarrass him....so then the question was 'how?'. It came down to looking at my needs and desires as a submissive, what I enjoyed and needed to feel happy, how I found peace and challenge in submission and craved pain delivered for the love of pain as opposed to punishment. Then it became much easier. I realised it was actually being nice to whoever I topped because to think otherwise was to then equate what F did to me as abuse, and that it is not. I knew any sub willing to try this was going to do it because it answered their need, so to not give them what they wanted and expected was not only damaging in my own relationship, but also was going to be denying them pleasure and an experience they wanted and needed.

Thinking that way also allowed me to gain confidence I could actually do a fair job at it as long as I could switch my thinking to how they would be feeling, what they would be craving, what they might enjoy, more so than what I was doing and why, whether it featured on my list of things I wanted to do or not. I also decided to look at it from a creative POV and found that helped heaps. I love creating and have an active imagination, so why not utilise it to help me through this and also to maybe give them an experience they would remember favourably? It soon became much more interesting when looking at it with all those factors involved.

I took the time to talk to the person, get to know them a bit, their experience, their hopes in terms of the experience, what they wanted to try, what they had tried...and took it from there. It became an act of submission to Amo which required me to accept another's submission as being just as important, fragile, and real as my own, and my responsibility to fulfil the needs of Amo through fulfilling another submissives needs. I became the tool by which submission was exercised in an unconventional way, but perhaps a way which highlighted that submission even more as the visual role was not the role to which I identified and felt at home in....it meant I had to work, I had to think, I had to sacrifice my needs/wants to fulfil those I was both ordered and requested to, not just go with what came naturally.

Catalina

Thanks for this catalina

There is alot in there for me to think and ponder over.

Particularly about it being'nice' to the person you topped otherwise it makes what you go through as a submissive 'abuse'

I feel far from ready to go down this path, but Andante has said many times he believes I could go there and would gain from it.

Interestingly, in a recently bumped thread I had previously posted I would never want shared or used by others. I had forgotten I had written it and at the time it was true. Now, however, Andante is making me understand that being shared is about my submission to him.
I have been re-examining many of my bounderies and limits of late, perhaps this is a place I will someday go, but at present I still have at least one foot in osg way of thinking.

 

[catalina_francisco]

Thanks for this catalina

There is alot in there for me to think and ponder over.

Particularly about it being'nice' to the person you topped otherwise it makes what you go through as a submissive 'abuse'

I feel far from ready to go down this path, but Andante has said many times he believes I could go there and would gain from it.

Interestingly, in a recently bumped thread I had previously posted I would never want shared or used by others. I had forgotten I had written it and at the time it was true. Now, however, Andante is making me understand that being shared is about my submission to him.
I have been re-examining many of my bounderies and limits of late, perhaps this is a place I will someday go, but at present I still have at least one foot in osg way of thinking.

LOL, it does require some mental gymnastics, at least to begin with and then it is a matter of programming it in so it comes back easier over time.

Catalina

 

[shy slave]

LOL, it does require some mental gymnastics, at least to begin with and then it is a matter of programming it in so it comes back easier over time.

Catalina

This has caused me to think so much I have put a new thread out to talk about changing limits.
Thanks etoile and catalina for a great thread

 

[ownedsubgal]

But osg, I think it comes down to whether in so doing you would be imposing your view of submission over that of the Master you had vowed to trust and obey. You would be judging his right to issue such an order which in turn is demonstrating you do not have 100% trust in the ability of that person to know what they are doing, or to be doing what is right. IMHO, perhaps being ordered to top another might just remind you what submission and obedience is all about....that being what the Dominant sees as fit and requires for his amusement or whatever reason, not what you visualise as the way you choose to submit on your terms and preferences, and your limits....no?

Catalina

Catalina, i certainly understand your point. after all, as slaves, it is our place to obey our Owners always, without question or hesitation, no matter what, yes? that's why when i first saw this topic, i didn't want to touch it with a 10 foot pole, but at the request of someone i care about, i gave it my best shot.

perhaps if i were not a submissive, and simply a slave, i could see myself obeying the order to top him or anyone else without any issue or ill feelings. but the fact is, i am a submissive. and that is not a part of myself i have any control over, any more than most can control kicking out their leg when the doctor hits it with that hammer. with me, submitting is a reflex, not a choice. there have been times in the past when i have disobeyed my Master, because of my submissive nature. say he commanded me to not serve a particular person, but when confronted with the person, i found myself unable to refuse them. or, say he commanded me to briefly take some minor position of authority over someone (say with repair people and such)...i would end up being subservient to that person and not getting the job done.

so, it's from knowing myself and my submissive nature as i do that i can say i probably would not be able to obey any order to top my Master or anyone else, no matter how strong the need would be in me to be obedient and pleasing. as i said before, being Dominant or being submissive imo is about one's nature, one's personality, and not simply about obedience or giving commands. again, if i were simply a slave, and only had to be obedient, then topping would not be an issue. but as a submissive and a slave, such a thing just is unfathomable to me. likewise, my Master is not simply a Master, he is a Dominant. it wouldn't be a case of me imposing my own little views of Dominance and submission on him...my views come from him. and His views are based on tradition and the natural order.

maybe for you Catalina and perhaps for many slaves it is different (i recall you mentioning before that your Master doesn't believe in "one true wayism"), but a huge part of my Master's training of me from day one has been based on what HE views as The Way...that way being female in submission to Male, Male in ownership of female, etc. He has told me clearly what is and what is not Dominance, and what is and is not submission. His control over me is not simply because he is Master and i must obey him, but because he is actively Dominant over me. so for him to then come out with an order for me to top him or anyone else, he would be telling me quite clearly that all he has taught me, all he has claimed to believe in, all he IS, up to that point, was a complete lie. i would instantly lose all trust in him. it really would have nothing to do with my preferences, my limits (which don't exist), or my own personal comfort zones. it would have to do with who i am, and who he claimed he was.

oh...since seeing this topic, Daddy has ordered me to call the paddywagon and have him carted off to a long-term mental health facility if such an order ever comes out of his mouth, because, in his words, it will mean that he has surely lost his mind lol.

 

[catalina_francisco]

LOL, what you are missing osg is this is his one way truism, and it is submission. I have yet to find a slave who does not submit.

Catalina

 

[ownedsubgal]

LOL, what you are missing osg is this is his one way truism, and it is submission. I have yet to find a slave who does not submit.

Catalina

all slaves submit, but all slaves are not submissive. being obedient and being submissive are not necessarily one and the same.

 

[Netzach]

The beauty of owning an individual human is that they are all very different. There are some slaves/subs who, if you tell them to top in any form, it's like trying to make grilled cheese in a slotted toaster.

You can try, but, really why would you?

It goes against that person's nature so dramatically that it's just pointless. I'd consider such a thing to be a limit, much like a physical limit, if it's that strong and that clear a thing.


That said, there are FEW and FAR BETWEEN people who cannot be flexible in this regard. I find the submissive-across-the-board personality exceedingly rare, as is the Dominant across the board personality. The vast majority of of us are Kinsey 2-5.

this is a difficult scenario to contemplate. as impossible and against all natural order as such a thing would be, if my Master commanded me to "top" him, my immediate reaction would be horror. i would need to know exactly what he meant by "top", and as to whether i could physically perform the acts or not, i'm not sure. there would be a major conflict between my natural instinct to obey, and my natural instinct to submit. if in order to obey i had to NOT submit, i have no idea what i would do honestly. if it were something that involved me being sexually dominant, or physically striking him no matter how lightly, i probably would not be able to do it. i would not refuse, i just wouldn't be able to make myself do it. just as i could not force myself to pull a trigger and murder another person, even if ordered to do so. i don't think being submissive is just about obedience...i think one must also BE submissive. likewise, i don't think being Dominant is just about giving orders...one must also BE Dominant. a so-called Dominant who orders someone to spank him, is no more Dominant than i am imo.
so...i probably would be unable to obey in such a situation, and at the same time i would feel betrayed and deceived to the utmost...because here all along i had thought i had given myself to a strong, Dominant Man. here i thought i had a true Master. our whole relationship would have been a lie...it would break my heart and perhaps my sanity. i could obviously never see him in the same way again, and yes i would beg for release...whether or not he granted my request for release, the rest of my days would be miserable.

as for being ordered to top someone else...my feelings would be the same.

 

[catalina_francisco]

all slaves submit, but all slaves are not submissive. being obedient and being submissive are not necessarily one and the same.

LOL, well unfortunately in my world, deciding my Dominant is wrong to ask something of me 'I' do not consider submissive and thus within my right to refuse or claim I can't do because I am 'too submissive', and consider asking release over, just isn't going to wash or be seen as being a submissive slave in a no liimits relationship as we agreed to. If he commands, and I do as commanded, I am submitting to him and his will....if I tell him I am too submissive to do it, he is going to find a nasty way to remind me what the exact meaning of submission and submitting is, and who decides what is and isn't submission in this relationship, and what is required to demonstrate that submissiveness I am craving to claim. I know which alternative I prefer. But as Netzach in her usual wisdom says, it is about difference and what is going to work for the individuals involved.

Catalina

 

[Quint]

BlueSugar, I'm right with you on the Mommy role in groups. That's where I feel comfortable too--making sure everyone else is and taking my pleasure from that rather than gratifying my own desires.

Sometimes T wants me to perform actions that might be viewed as dominant, or responds in a way that might be viewed as submissive or masochistic. This is usually when he's been feeling extremely overwhelmed, I've noticed, and needs some change of balance. Thus far I've been able to do everything he's asked and not cringe away, but I notice it leaves me emotionally cold. I'm just doing what I'm told, not mindlessly but certainly not passionately. Conflicted. It would be easy for him to order me to top someone else, though. That'd be cake.

 

[Netzach]

BlueSugar, I'm right with you on the Mommy role in groups. That's where I feel comfortable too--making sure everyone else is and taking my pleasure from that rather than gratifying my own desires.

Sometimes T wants me to perform actions that might be viewed as dominant, or responds in a way that might be viewed as submissive or masochistic. This is usually when he's been feeling extremely overwhelmed, I've noticed, and needs some change of balance. Thus far I've been able to do everything he's asked and not cringe away, but I notice it leaves me emotionally cold. I'm just doing what I'm told, not mindlessly but certainly not passionately. Conflicted. It would be easy for him to order me to top someone else, though. That'd be cake.

I can relate to T. When I ask for a bottom experience, it's not really that different from asking to be massaged. It's like massage for my brain, and it hits my reset buttons. It's months-years apart, usually.