survivor contest

[Elle_xxoo]

I know I'm not the first to have brought this up by any means. I've seen some of the past discussions and I imagine there must have been even more that I haven't seen from past contest years. But isn't there some way this contest can incorporate more quality than quantity? I know voting scores won't work, and using "E" ratings won't work, but there's got to be something. Right now it seems like the contest is doing nothing more than encouraging people to post lots and lots of stories that are not too good. And who needs that?

I think it's interesting that the works entered range from pure crap to pretty decent, but the really good writers around here are not participating. That's a shame. (Or maybe it's not such a bad thing, because the good writers are still producing and we can still read their work.)

Please don't flame me too hard, I'm only trying to help, believe it or not.

P.S. - I don't mean this in any way as a reflection on Chicklet. She's obviously put a lot of work into this and I know there's no way I could do what she's doing.

P.P.S - I'm asking this in here to reach a broader audience of authors who have no reason to go into the contest forum.

 

[KillerMuffin]

The Survivor contest was begun to add stories to the lists. It didn't used to be so full of stories in there. Then it kept on going because it gives writers who aren't so good a chance to earn awards and recognition for their effort.


There is no way to award for H's because they come and go and isn't an H with 200 votes more valuable than an H with 10 votes? Laurel will not permit awards for E's anymore. We did that one year, it puts entirely too much pressure on her. There is no way to fairly judge for quality beyond those two marks.

There are contests for quality, monthly reader's choice and the annual Best of Lit awards. Why take away the one contest that everyone has an equal opportunity to win at? If you're more interested in quality, there are two things you can do. One, try to win a monthly reader's choice contest to, two, get published by a paying venue and then this contest won't matter so much to you.

So, no, you're not helping. You're not even in line with philosophy of the site. That philosophy is, by the way, to give every writer who can follow basic formatting rules and conventions a chance to share their writing with the rest of the world. And you want to take basically the only means of contest recognition that doesn't depend entirely on someone else's judgment of the quality of their writing away from them?

One final thought, if you think that my work is only "crap to pretty decent", do tell what I can do to make it better. To be fair to you--since I have so many--take my lowest scoring story and tell my how to improve the quality. It's called "So Much Wind".

 

[Elle_xxoo]

Thanks for the response, Killer Muffin. I can see you're annoyed at me and I appreciate your restraint. And your response does make a lot of sense. Well, it makes sense in a way but it also makes me think of summer camp for the mentally disabled where everyone gets a ribbon for something at the end. If the survivor contest is just a chance for anyone to win regardless of ability then it really comes down to who has the most time on their hands to churn out the most one-page variations of the same in-and-out story. Just add in a pair of handcuffs for the BSDM section and make the couple brother and sister for the incest section, etc.

As far as your own work, you are one of the people to whom I referred as a really good writer who is not participating in the contest, but I didn't want to name names on either end of the spectrum.

I do know the "E" thing has been tried. I know a lot of things have been discussed already. You'll see that I mentioned it in my first post. And I freely admit I have no good ideas of my own. I was hoping someone else would have a flash of inspiration.

Regarding overall quality, I know this is an amateur site. I'm not expecting Anais Nin here. I'm mainly talking about basic things like where instead of were, loose instead of lose, their instead of they're, your instead of you're, favorate instead of favorite... in other words, things that an editor could easily pick up on and things which we continue from story to story by the same person, even after those very things have been pointed out to that person in the feedback forum. And yes some basics of plot - something you yourself have advocated for in the past.

But ok, the contest is for everyone. Those who are willing to try to improve their writing and those who aren't. Fine. But where does someone go who isn't good enough yet to win a monthly contest, but who actually wants to participate in something that encourages improvement?

 

[openthighs_sarah]

Well, it makes sense in a way but it also makes me think of summer camp for the mentally disabled where everyone gets a ribbon for something at the end.

Sounds cool! I want my ribbon to be gold, with blood-red borders, and have a smiley-face with Matrix-style sunglasses.

If the survivor contest is just a chance for anyone to win regardless of ability then it really comes down to who has the most time on their hands to churn out the most one-page variations of the same in-and-out story. Just add in a pair of handcuffs for the BSDM section and make the couple brother and sister for the incest section, etc.

That sounds like a really cool story, with brother-sister incest and handcuffs and stuff!

Regarding overall quality, I know this is an amateur site. I'm not expecting Anais Nin here.

Who's he?

But where does someone go who isn't good enough yet to win a monthly contest, but who actually wants to participate in something that encourages improvement?

I think that's what the general site itself is for -- for people who either aren't yet comfortable enough to enter a contest, or who just want encouragement (feedback) for whatever reason: to improve or just to know that they've succeeded at bringing some erotic vision to life...

I've never been interested much in contests of any kind, and I really don't know enough about this one to post a message on the subject. I just wanted to be involved in the thread in case I can find out who that Anais Nin guy is.

Off to do my taxes now...

 

[Elle_xxoo]

Ok, you're making fun of me at first but then you also seemed to be giving me an honest answer to my last question-- I'm confused...

 

[openthighs_sarah]

Ok, you're making fun of me at first but then you also seemed to be giving me an honest answer to my last question-- I'm confused...

Confusion is the father of erotica. Or maybe the mother, I'm not sure...

I wasn't making fun -- just being a goof. The thread was looking a little too serious there, and I wanted to insert some much-needed capriciousness.

 

[Dirt Man]

The Truth about writing...

The Truth about writing is, that those that can, do, and those that can't, Teach, or become editors, or more to the point; they should. There is an inner fire, a passion if you will, that takes over the soul, and compells it to put pen to paper, quill to parchment, and fingers to keyboards that is impossible to explain to those who do not have it. More and more those who should be editors, are writing lifeless paragraphs of perfectly spelled, and grammatically correct heartless parodies of the real thing that get snatched up by editors as something worthwhile to publish. The thing is no one buys that crap, because it has nothing that stirs the inner chee that is within us all. So if they chose to enter a writing contest such as the survivor, why the hell should anyone care? Other than a pompous editor type, that is.

DM

 

[Chicklet]

Hey there. Personally, and maybe the whole idea of this contest has been lost on me, but personally I thought the whole idea was to have a lot of fun and try a lot of new things that we, the author's, hadn't done before. Last year when I won, I wrote a story for *nearly* every category, and if it hadn't been for the contest I probably would never have ventured out of Non-Consent. Turns out I wrote a couple pretty decent BDSM stories, too <wink>

It may have been fun to win, but you know what was more fun? Putting my mind into a male body and writing a gay male story, which I had never even thought about writing before. I've written a few more since then, and enjoyed it thoroughly (god help my spelling skills) - I felt a bit cheap for writing so much in such a short amount of time, but it felt great to push myself like that. Who knew that I could write an incest story? I sure didn't.

But isn't there some way this contest can incorporate more quality than quantity?

Quantity of Quality. Quality over Quantity. We have so many contests on lit, and a lot of time the "Quality" stories don't win. I don't think that the "readers choice" awards are totally fair, either. Popular people win sometimes, people with friends who can vote for their stories. People win for jack-off stories, which are the same cheap stories you're referring to that have been entered in Survivor. But a lot of time that does work, and then in the end when we get to vote for the years winner, that's when we get to choose who has made the difference = )

Another contest we're trying to do is the "Critic's Choice Awards" and I'm actually moderating it this round. Not doing a very good job, aparently, but it's sludging along slowly. This is where a pannel of AUTHORS rather than just readers nominate stories and then rate them. This round we're also writing short critiques of the story, to give the author's good feedback. I think that this is a good contest idea, but unfortunatly, not many people are participating.

Survivor isn't worth pushing out hundreds of stories to win. There's not a very big pay off, and no one really cares if you have won. I calculated the ammount of money I could have made if I'd sold those stories I used instead of submitting them to lit, and I'll tell ya, it was more than two-hundred bucks. But I don't really care, because I wasn't in it for the money. Some people might be, but if they're willing to sit in front of their computer and do whatever it takes for that two-hundred bucks, why not just sit back and let them?

Right now it seems like the contest is doing nothing more than encouraging people to post lots and lots of stories that are not too good.

In my opinion, the survivor contest is a challenge to any author to write as many different types of stories as he or she can. To me, it's all about the different styles. Take a person who until now has only written lesbian sex, and have them write a science fiction. Take an author who has no trouble writing incest, and have him or her try to write a mature story. That's what I think it's about.

I think it's interesting that the works entered range from pure crap to pretty decent, but the really good writers around here are not participating.

I'm honestly ashamed for all of us, every person on this site, that you would say that. Are you the type of person who wants to open up a feedback email and tell the author that what they've written is crap? Despite whether the story or stories in question are works of art or just jerk-off material, every author puts at least a little time and thought into their stories. It takes time to produce crap, it takes time to produce genius. Sometimes an author produces a work of art in twenty minutes, and crap in four weeks. Who's to judge?

Please don't flame me too hard, I'm only trying to help, believe it or not.

No one deserves to be flamed, not you, not me, not any random author who's come out of the wood-work to participate in Survivor. All my comments are for myself as much as for you, so don't take any offense.

also makes me think of summer camp for the mentally disabled where everyone gets a ribbon for something at the end

Is there something really wrong with everyone getting praise for something in the end? I think that that's wonderful, and personally I always felt really crappy when I was sent away with nothing, from school contests, from any contest. Personally I want this contest to be great for everyone, whether they win or not. What's wrong with giving every participant praise for being involved?

But where does someone go who isn't good enough yet to win a monthly contest, but who actually wants to participate in something that encourages improvement?

Again, let me point you towards the Critic's Choice Awards contest. You could be a judge, or nominate one of your own stories. We need more participants, and when this month is over and this leg of the contest has ended, someone else needs to grab the torch and start a new phase.

Elle, there's nothing at all wrong with the questions you ask, and none of the great people on this site are going to hold anything against you. Come hang out in the critic's choice with me, see if it's what you're thinking of. I'm hoping you'll find it more to your liking.

--Chicklet

ps - you have a whole 8 months to think of a way to change the survivor contest. If you can think of things that fairly judge the quality of a story that you'd like seen in next years contest, when the new discussion starts for 2004 (if there is a contest for 2004) you can post them there and the next moderator can read over them and see what they think.

 

[openthighs_sarah]

I feel like clapping now after reading Chicklet's post. (Really.)

 

[Master_Vassago]

I can't stop myself here, YAy Chicklet.!!!!


I suppose I am one of those crap producers. I admit I have quite a few submissions for this contest but I will tell you that not a one of them suffered for plot or differ in any aspect from my other stories.

For some reason people think it's easy to write a story that more than the jerk-off group will like. Truly it isn't, and sometimes you tend to offend other persons when you switch how you tell a story.

As for quality over quantity I sat down and wrote a story last night one I had been thinking about doing for a long time. It was the second chapter to one of my most well scoring stories. So at 10:30 P.M. I started typing and at 4:30 A.M. I stopped. Is it going to be a piece of crap, or my masterpiece?

I offer my own answer here, it is my masterpiece as is each story I produce in my mind. (Wait don't anyone think I have a god complex yet.) It is a masterpiece because I took the time and effort to sit down and write it. I think every story every author here submits is at least at the moment they hit the submission button a little masterpiece. No one well there has been a few that do it for fun, no one writes a story and puts effort into it and then hopes that it doesn't do well.

I have veered from the original subject here. So sorry. I like the idea because as Chicklet said it forces you to write in other areas you would normally not be interested in. I for one am loving this.

MV.

 

[MathGirl]

Anus Nit!

I just want to know who that Anus guy is.
MG

 

[Svenskaflicka]

Apart from one or two stories in the Mind-Control and Crossdresser categories, which I wrote mostly just to fill in the categories, I have really put a lot of effort into all of my stories.

I've planned them, I've made notes about plot and characters, I've re-written scenes that I didn't find good enough...

Survivor, as any other contest, is rather neutral. It's not the amount of time you have to finish your work(s), nor the topic you're supposed to write about, nor the prize you may win, that determines what quality your story will have.

It's how much effort you as a writer is willing to put into it.

For any contest, Survivor, monthly, Earth Day, whatever, there are auhtors who stink and there are authors who are brilliant. How are you going to weed out the "bad" writers? Should we create some kind of test that you must pass in order to be allowed to enter a contest?

Sure, Survivor made me rush in the end of December. I have a handful of stories that are not as good as they could have been. Partly because of the rush, partly because I have never tried that category before. But bad stories disappear in the big flow thanks to low votes, making it all worth it. Atleast now I know that I can actually write decent incest and I suck at Mind Control.

It's exciting to learn something new about yourself.

 

[Alex De Kok]

Okay, I've been away for the weekend, I just got back and I'm tired, but I just had a thought! First this year, probably. How about?

1. However many stories or poems an author writes in each category, only the highest-scoring one - that is, on Literotica generally - in the category counts for the contest.

2. The scores in each category are added together for the final score.

3. Only in the event of a tie is quantity considered (and I haven't thought this one out yet!)

This could mean that a better writer with a smaller output might still win.

Like I said, just a thought...

Alex

 

[oggbashan]

Welcome back Alex

Are you sure it is tiredness and not the malt?

I hope you brought some back for later.

Og

 

[Dirt Man]

Alex De Kok says:
1. However many stories or poems an author writes in each category, only the highest-scoring one - that is, on Literotica generally - in the category counts for the contest.

We already have too many contests that depend on the voting public at large, that get rigged by the idiot snerts. If you make this a part of the survivor contest I for one will never consider entering that contest, and I'm sure that a lot of others would join me in this sentiment.

2. The scores in each category are added together for the final score.

This is just more of the same insane crap as number 1. Votes get fudged here, and even the best stories get crapped on by the snerts. So just leave the voting system out of the equation altogether. That is unless you are one of those snerts? Right?

3. Only in the event of a tie is quantity considered (and I haven't thought this one out yet!) This could mean that a better writer with a smaller output might still win.

This was the whole idea behind the contest in the first place, and you put it 3rd??????? What you mean is an author who is capable of manipulating the vote counts would win.


As Always
I Am the
Dirt Man

 

[MathGirl]

Give 'em hell

Dear Dirtie,
You tell 'em, big brother.
Sis

 

[deliciously_naughty]

here's the thing...I don't think j. random writer would make the kind of effort necessary to win Survivor if they didn't love to write and actually had some skill. I could be totally off base on this, but that's my first thought.

Secondly, quality is an incredibly subjective matter. What I consider quality, another might consider fluff or crap. Shrug. Amusingly, my E story has one of my lowest ratings overall, so I don't know what that says about weighting an E over something else.

As to the suggestion about "ratings" based contest...there is a constant stream of bitching that goes on all over this board about the general unfairness of voting and lack of worth of one's scores, so I doubt that that would be fair.

I think the way the contest is currently run is the most logical way to run it.

With regards to your comment that "everyone could get an award" like at the special needs camps...that's just not true. I think Chicklet wrote over 60 stories to win last year...that's more than 2 a week. Quite frankly, this goes back to my original argument of the amount of effort it takes to win this thing. If someone's not a great writer, I doubt that they'd even bother to try. Winning takes dedication, commitment to craft and passion. I think our previous winners prove that.

 

[KillerMuffin]

What makes you think that I'm not participating in the contest? I have until December 31 to make the entry post in the awards forum.

You insulted me directly. What was I supposed to do, grovel at your feet for any crumbs of wisdom you choose to toss at me?

 

[Alex De Kok]

Okay, I said I was tired... Point conceded.

No, Og, it wasn't the malt, it was the drive. However, I can now add Te Bheag to my list.

Alex

 

[Elle_xxoo]

Re: Re: survivor contest

I'm honestly ashamed for all of us, every person on this site, that you would say that. Are you the type of person who wants to open up a feedback email and tell the author that what they've written is crap? Despite whether the story or stories in question are works of art or just jerk-off material, every author puts at least a little time and thought into their stories. It takes time to produce crap, it takes time to produce genius. Sometimes an author produces a work of art in twenty minutes, and crap in four weeks. Who's to judge?


--Chicklet

Okay. I will apologize for the using the word "crap." And I really wish I hadn't because I feel like it's the only word people saw of my whole post. However, I stand by everything else I said.

I want to respond to the above - I would never send someone feedback that told an author his or her stuff was crap. Ever. It's rude and pointless and I would never want it done to me. I used that word in my post because I wasn't addressing anyone directly. (regardless of what KillerMuffin seems to think)

I also want to say this - I wasn't talking about stroke stories versus fine literature when I talked about quality. I wasn't talking about time taken writing a story, that is if someone can't tell you churned it out in 20 minutes, great! Conversely, if you labored over it for 20 years but needs editing, that's bad. It doesn't matter how much time you put into it or whether it's meant to jerk off to, cry over, or nominate for Pulitzers. I'm talking about work that is full of misspellings, poor punctuation, bad grammar, incomprehensible plot. I'm hardly the first to have campaigned for a minimum of quality around here.

Don't worry, you all have made me feel plenty small and ashamed of myself. I feel like crawling under a rock right now. I see it's too late for me to be liked here so I might as well appear petty as well as hostile. I have nothing left to lose. You'll never believe I'm asking a real question, but I am. What is the difference between my post and this:

Idiots and morons

If I'm insulting KillerMuffin "directly" by saying the work in the survivor contest ranges from "crap to pretty good" (did no one see the words pretty good??) how is she not insulting people directly by calling them morons and idiots?

I have three possible thoughts:

I haven't proven myself as a writer here;
I haven't made any friends here;
The pool of authors I criticized was too small for comfort.

Or is it something else?

 

[DurtGurl]

P.P.S - I'm asking this in here to reach a broader audience of authors who have no reason to go into the contest forum.

And why would we change our minds again?

DM

 

[Elle_xxoo]

Sorry, I don't understand.

 

[Dirt Man]

What I think my sister means is, people will enter the contest only if they are motivated to enter, and no ammount of coersion will make them change their minds on the subject.

As Always
I Am the
Dirt Man

 

[Elle_xxoo]

Well I meant that comment to explain why I posted in the Author's Hangout and not in Awards and Contests, not to tell people to participate in the survivor contest.

 

[Chicklet]

Re: Re: Re: survivor contest

Don't worry, you all have made me feel plenty small and ashamed of myself. I feel like crawling under a rock right now. I see it's too late for me to be liked here so I might as well appear petty as well as hostile.

I assure you that at least in my case I wasn't trying to make you feel bad. I was trying to explain what is going on in our minds, and why we appreciate and enjoy Survivor. It isn't for everyone, and I understand that, and I also understand that people have different opinions and that everything should be respected to an extent. I apologize for your hurt feelings, and I want to assure you that three days from now no one is going to care what you posted in this thread, either way, and that you can still make friends.

I wrote a post on the General Board that got me flamed for a week, Pm's out the ass, and nasty, nasty comments directed towards me. But, a week later, it's gone, they're gone, and everyone's friendly again. No one is going to judge you for life based on this one thread, I promise. I'll bet half the board didn't even look in here, and another quarter of it agrees.

I'll go out on a limb here about your "directly" insulting Killer Muffin - I don't know her very well, but I do read quite a few of her posts (with that number, how can you miss them?) and I don't think that she holds much against people. Whether she actually thinks you directly insulted her person or whether she's just using that as a way to explain what she's feeling, I'm not sure, but I don't think she'll be the kind of person to follow you around giving any future stories "1's" and writing "RETARD" under every one of your posts. She's a bigger person than that, imho.

What is the difference between my post and this:

I think the reason no specific people took offense to KM's post in that thread was that she didn't direct it towards any specific group of people. When you mentioned the survivor contest, we all assumed you were addressing the group of participants in this year's and last year's survivor contest. If so many of us participants didn't browse these boards, then probably no one would have started to flame you. There's nothing wrong with complaining about quality of story, but when you're insulting (and you have to admit it was little bit insulting) us and our friends, we are going to respond harshly. This post wasn't a random complaint about quality on lit, but a complaint about quality from a group of people. That's the difference.

I hope we don't scare you off, and I hope to see many more posts from you in the future. I also hope that you'll volunteer your talents at spelling and grammar as an editor so that you can fix the problem that bothers you so much.

Good luck on lit, it'll be easy to find = )

Chicklet