Survival rifles, your thoughts

[SeaCat]

Hey shooters and campers. What would you like to see in a survival/general purpose rifle. Calibers etc.

My Uncle, who has more money than he knows what to do with was asking me this a while back and we got to talking. The upshot of the conversation was I started designing a Survival/General Purpose rifle.

Now i've shot most of the survival rifles on the market and have found something lacking in each of the designs.

What I've come up with so far is a folding stock over under. Upper barrel is a .22 Magnum Bolt Action. (Ease of care on the bolt action and the .22 Magnum is a versatile round.) Bottom barrel is a single shot 12 gauge. (Capable of dropping larger game as well as picking off birds.)

The stock wouldn't be a skeleton stock, it would be instead a hollow stock. Inside the stock would be carried roughly 20 rounds of .22 and five rounds of 12 gauge. Also it would contain such usefull things as a firestarted kit, fish hooks and a small fixed blade knife.

Your input would be helpful.

Cat

 

[TE999]

Configure it as a 'Mare's Laig' (a la Josh Randall) with a belt holster and you'd have a winner.

 

[voluptuary_manque]

Why design? Just buy this.

The original in .22/.410 was good enough for the Air Force. The later model is even better. Of course, you could get the .30/30-12 ga. version but a .22 or .22 centerfire is so much for versatile.

 

[jomar]

I have no knowledge of guns and knives, except for the special forces training and other stuff I can't talk about, but I can see the appeal of a combo weapon.

In a survivalist weapon I think a major, most important, factor is the ammo. You want a weapon that can shoot the most common and routine ammunition...after all, you might be scrounging...

Ideally, you want something for short range like a shotgun and something for medium distance with penetration and stopping power.

However, all things being equal, I think I'd load up with a sawed off shotgun for my main weapon.

So, Mare's Leg on my left and Mare's Chubby on my right!

Bring it RR!

 

[TE999]

Why design? Just buy this.

The original in .22/.410 was good enough for the Air Force. The later model is even better. Of course, you could get the .30/30-12 ga. version but a .22 or .22 centerfire is so much for versatile.

That's a nice weapon, but it has a solid, fixed stock. I like Cat's idea of a hollow, folding stock so that ammo and other gear could be carried in it. 16 1/4" long barrels (Hello, BATFE) would make it easier to carry and wear in a belt holster.

 

[SeaCat]

Remember this is a survival rifle. Therefore portability is an issue. As is weight and believe it or not controlability.

For the rifle section I like the .22 Magnum because while it is a lightweight round it is able to take down both small animals as well as deer. (If you place your shot correctly.) Being a lightweight round you can fit a lot of them in a small space.

The 12 gauge is also a very versatile round in that it can be used both for bird hunting and larger game hunting. (Depending on the round used.)

Controlability is an issue but I think the over under configuration helps with this. The recoil from the 12 guage is directed more directly into the shoulder, and the added weight of the rifle above helps with the felt recoil.

I'm open to suggestions here people. Single barrel? what round? (I do like the 30-30 but it has it's disadvantages for a survival round.)

Cat

 

[Weird Harold]

What I've come up with so far is a folding stock over under. Upper barrel is a .22 Magnum Bolt Action. (Ease of care on the bolt action and the .22 Magnum is a versatile round.) Bottom barrel is a single shot 12 gauge. (Capable of dropping larger game as well as picking off birds.)

I assume you're talking about the .22WMR rimfire Winchester Magnum? That wouldn't be my first choice in a survalist round -- it can't be reloaded and it is not a widely used round that would be amenable to a salvage resupply situation.

.22LR would be adequate for the few situations where 12ga (or 16GA or 20GA) birdshot would be more firepower than desired unless long-range capability is desired -- in which case, the .22WMR is also inadequate for any range beyond what a shotgun Deer Slug can reach.

If I was forced to survive with a single gun, I'd want a short barreled 12GA over-under with a good selection of rounds from #9 birdshot to 00 Buck and deer slugs. I'd want a detachable rifle sight system of some sort that would allow a bit more accurate aiming with the slugs, but not interfere with the food-gathering point-and-shoot aiming for bird-shot or 00 buck.

If I was to add a rifled barrel, I'd still want doublebarreled 12GA capability in a side-by-side configuration with the rifled barrel in the groove above and between the shotgun barrels. I'd want something with more reach and accuracy that a 12GA slug, so a full-sized rifle cartrdige of some sort -- probably .30 cal or bigger; definitely no smaller than 6.5mm/.270 Win or less powerful than 30-30 Win.

The rifled barrel would be strictly a bonus feature. 12GA, 16GA or 20GA rifled slugs have the accuracy and knockdown power needed for survival situations -- even a .410 rifled slug has that much knock-down power -- and the capability for birdshot and buckshot would be more useful to survival than any weapon restricted to single-projectile ammo.

I would stick with 12GA despite the weight penalties of 12GA ammo. 16GA or 20GA would be adequate and preferable from a weight/recoil standpoint, but there is far more 12GA ammo out int he world than 16GA and 20GA combined.

Something like this -- with shorter barrels -- and possibly your hollow stock containing a selection of ammo:

http://www.ableammo.com/catalog/images/ssi-2008/52696.jpg

Personally, I'd put more survival value on two quick shots for collecting food-on-the-wing or -small-furry-four-footed-food than I would on the reach and precision of a rifled barrel in place of one shotun barrel.

 

[voluptuary_manque]

That's a nice weapon, but it has a solid, fixed stock. I like Cat's idea of a hollow, folding stock so that ammo and other gear could be carried in it. 16 1/4" long barrels (Hello, BATFE) would make it easier to carry and wear in a belt holster.

Since it's a break-down weapon, the folding stock option is irrelevant. And hollowing out a wooden stock is child's play to anyone with an electric drill. Why you would want to carry it in a belt holster I cannot imagine. This isn't a gunslinger weapon, it's a survival gun. And it won't be used all that often anyway because anyone who has ever taken a real survival course knows that the majority of your food will come from snares and deadfalls.

Now if we're serious about this we need to consider where it would be used. This .22/12 ga. argument is just fine if you're talking about North or South America. It would do well if you happened to be downed in Scandinavia or possible the Russian taiga. And it would be fine in the Pacific. However, if you happen to crash your plane in either Asia or Africa may I suggest that your best survival rifle is a .375 H&H? Getting something to eat on those continents is less of a concern than not getting eaten!

 

[Weird Harold]

Remember this is a survival rifle. Therefore portability is an issue. As is weight and believe it or not controlability.

...

Controlability is an issue but I think the over under configuration helps with this. The recoil from the 12 guage is directed more directly into the shoulder, and the added weight of the rifle above helps with the felt recoil.

The added weight of a recoil pad or suppression system -- muzzle-brake? -- would be worth considering if you stay with 12GA. If not for the ammo availability problem, 16 GA or 20GA would be preferable for the shotgun barrel.

A rifle round big enough to be useful would also cause recoil/controlability prblems that a recoil absorber would ameliorate.

I'm open to suggestions here people. Single barrel? what round? (I do like the 30-30 but it has it's disadvantages for a survival round.)

Single barreled? I'd want something big enough to handle a "snake round" -- which means .44 or bigger. but it would have to be small enough to carry a significant ammo loadout.

A lever-action in .44 Magnum or other large pistol round -- preferably in the same caliber as a matching pistol -- would be a good starting point.

Perhaps a long-barreled pistol with a removable stock/holster like some of the WWII mausers? (or Lee Van Cleef had in "the good the bad and the ugly?")

 

[jayce1066]

Like so?
http://www.collectorsfirearms.com/admin/product_details.php?itemID=31210

If the rifle barrel was a more common caliber, this would be the cat's pjs.
http://www.collectorsfirearms.com/admin/product_details.php?itemID=37615

 

[voluptuary_manque]

Like so?
http://www.collectorsfirearms.com/admin/product_details.php?itemID=31210

If the rifle barrel was a more common caliber, this would be the cat's pjs.
http://www.collectorsfirearms.com/admin/product_details.php?itemID=37615

The 9.3x74 is the European equivalent of the .375 H&H. It will handle anything if pointed correctly. As to ammunition, you can find this caliber in any large urban area gun store. If you've got a box of it in your survival kit, you've got it made. After all, Seacat asked for a 'survival' gun, not something you intend to go out an conquer a planet with. All you really have to do is live long enough to get found. What are you guys thinking of, some post-apocalyptic Mad Max scenario? Puh-leeze!

 

[Weird Harold]

However, if you happen to crash your plane in either Asia or Africa may I suggest that your best survival rifle is a .375 H&H? Getting something to eat on those continents is less of a concern than not getting eaten!

Is the .375 H&H all that much more powerful than a 12GA 'Magnum' slug? It is undoubtedly more powerful, but is a 12ga slug really so useless against African Big Game as all that?

You do have a good point about getting eaten -- but that applies to many projected survivalist situations anywhere in the world.

The accuracy and range of a full-power rifle round is more likely to be needed in defense than it is in foraging -- and the target is fairly likely to be able to respond in kind if you miss.

 

[voluptuary_manque]

Is the .375 H&H all that much more powerful than a 12GA 'Magnum' slug? It is undoubtedly more powerful, but is a 12ga slug really so useless against African Big Game as all that?

You do have a good point about getting eaten -- but that applies to many projected survivalist situations anywhere in the world.

The accuracy and range of a full-power rifle round is more likely to be needed in defense than it is in foraging -- and the target is fairly likely to be able to respond in kind if you miss.

Hell yes, it is! Shoot a lion with a 12 ga. slug and all you get is one pissed off big kitty. And let's not even discuss elephant. Among African hunters, profession and amateur-with-experience the accepted opinion is one that I have in another of my avatar's sig block:


Holland's .375: One Planet, One Rifle!

Personally, when I don't want to get eaten/stomped into the mud/bitten in half and spit out/ speared through the mid section, I much prefer something in .458 caliber at about 2300 fps. I really like my .450 Rigby Rimless. That thing numbs buffalo!

 

[Weird Harold]

Shoot a lion with a 12 ga. slug and all you get is one pissed off big kitty.

At what range?

If the lion is too far away to be hurt by a 12ga slug, he's too far away for me to worrry about him eating me. If he gets close enough to eat me, I'll bet the 12 ga will do more than bruise him. (even if I just club him -- or more likely, her -- with the stock.)

 

[voluptuary_manque]

At what range?

If the lion is too far away to be hurt by a 12ga slug, he's too far away for me to worrry about him eating me. If he gets close enough to eat me, I'll bet the 12 ga will do more than bruise him. (even if I just club him -- or more likely, her -- with the stock.)

Uh, Harold, I've been to Africa and I know people who know lions. No, once a lion starts that charge there is only one solution. You must kill him. And you must kill him before he gets one paw on you because if he does your chances of survival are very, very slim. Remember, an adult lion is 400 lbs of predatory muscle. A 200 lb. human is but lunch.

 

[SeaCat]

Whoa now folks, remember we're talking a general purpose/survival rifle.

Yep, I could recomend a 20mm that would drop anything that moves but lets face it. Who wants to lug that sucker around?

.375 H&H Sure, that will drop big game but what if you are faced with a rabbit for dinner? Got a scraper?

Yes I know about things like traps and snares. I also know they don't always work.

With a properly placed shot you can drop a deer or larger with a .22LR. (I know because I've done it.)

Personaly I would carry a lever action in either 30-30 or .45 long but they just don't cut it with small game. (Not to mention a Lever Action takes more care than a Bolt.)

Again, remember this is for a person that wants it for when he is either camping or flying in a small aircraft. He wants something that will fit into his pack or into the cabin of the aircraft easily.

Cat

 

[voluptuary_manque]

Whoa now folks, remember we're talking a general purpose/survival rifle.

Yep, I could recomend a 20mm that would drop anything that moves but lets face it. Who wants to lug that sucker around?

.375 H&H Sure, that will drop big game but what if you are faced with a rabbit for dinner? Got a scraper?

Yes I know about things like traps and snares. I also know they don't always work.

With a properly placed shot you can drop a deer or larger with a .22LR. (I know because I've done it.)

Personaly I would carry a lever action in either 30-30 or .45 long but they just don't cut it with small game. (Not to mention a Lever Action takes more care than a Bolt.)

Again, remember this is for a person that wants it for when he is either camping or flying in a small aircraft. He wants something that will fit into his pack or into the cabin of the aircraft easily.

Cat

and you're concentrating on the Western Hemisphere, right? Then the go to the used gun market and get either an Armalite folding .22 or the Savage .24. The Savage was made with places in the stock for a box of .22 LR and some .410 shotshells. For as long as you're going to be lost, that would do it. After all, if no once can come and get you it's because the weather is so bad hypothermia is going to get you long before starvation sets in.

 

[JackLuis]

As VM said, it all depends upon where you want to survive.

An O/U Savage is the in .22 WRFM and 20 gauge fits in with what you wanted, except for repeating. No worries about drilling out the stock, in fact I think they make a synthetic stock for the Savages.

I shoot a lot of .22 mag and it's not real accurate or powerful. A .357 or .44 mag NEF Handi rifle give you a lot more power in the Florida glades for taking hogs, but the weight of the ammo is significant. Pick up 100 rounds of .22 and 100 round of 240 gr. .44's and you can appreciate the difference.

 

[Weird Harold]

Again, remember this is for a person that wants it for when he is either camping or flying in a small aircraft. He wants something that will fit into his pack or into the cabin of the aircraft easily.

If you took something like that over-under 12 ga above and modified it so that it broke up to 180 degrees and mated with the barrels to form a self-contained carrying case, it would make a fairly compact package, suitable for a back-pack or survival kit. Minimum legal length shotgun barrels would make it a about 24" x 10" x 2" in size.

Pack it into a lightweight case about 3" thick, and you'd have room for about 48 x 12 ga shells -- or fewer shells plus cleaning tools or other survival supplies -- plus whatever ammo storage you built into the stock.


12 ga provides a wide variety of shell options from signal flares (for signalling search planes or starting fires,) beanbags (for small game,) discarding sabot armor penetrators or HE (for dealing with hungry lions. ) and all of the more traditional shotgun ammo options.

I'm not sure I'd want to pack the whole kit somewhere, but I'd certainly welcome the full kit in an emergency landing scenario.

A smaller shotgun gauge would, of course, lighten the load, or provide more ammo for the same weight, but you'd have to custom-make some of the more esoteric rounds to provide the same range of options.

I can't think of any rifled weapon that offers the same range of survival benefits that a 12 ga shotgun does -- the only problem is the weight; both that necessary to make a short-barrelle 12 ga controllable and the weight of the ammo.

 

[mcevin]

11 Shots, Ten Seconds

Well, something a girl can shoot. I mean my friend Kristie, her dad is a gun nut and she has her own Glock. So when her dad comes to visit, they go buy a bunch of shells and have father-daughter time at the pistol range. Kristie can put the whole clip through a two inch circle in ten seconds, I've seen her do it.

So she let me shoot it once, I mean, it's kind of heavy and I'm like 5'1 and 95 lbs. Kristie is like, "Use both hands, Jamie," but the gun isn't THAT heavy, and I've seen girls shoot on TV, so I sort of held it out and waved it at the target and pulled the trigger.

So a week later, when I could use my hand again, I decided that I better stick to Tai Chi. So what we need is a gun that someone like me can use.

On second thought, Jamie? With a firearm? Umm, maybe not so much...

Love,

Jamie

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Idiots.

A 22 and a 12 gauge shotgun are what you want. Twenty-two cuz you can carry around more ammo, 12 gauge cuz it stops most things with #1 buckshot....nine 30 calibre slugs.

The sawed off shotgun is all myth. It adds little spread within its effective range.

And use your pockets to carry ammo, or a bandolier. Dont tote it around.

 

[Handley_Page]

How about 7.62 mm short ?
Common enough, particularly the middle east. lightweight to carry and packs an adequate punch.

But I do like the idea of some sort of .22 mag.

 

[oggbashan]

The only time I and a friend tried to live off the land with guns was in Australia.

The guns we carried were totally unsuitable. He had a 1914/18 Short Magazine Lee Enfield .303 and a Paterson Colt. I had a Napoleonic era Baker Rifle that took .7 round balls with black powder. I managed to reload in three minutes.

We did better with traps than with the guns. He managed to kill a wallaby at 50 yards. I hit a rabbit at 100 yards. I think that was a fluke, not skill, but the result was a mess. I had hit the rabbit full in the body and all that was left was minced rabbit.

The guns belonged to his father, a gun collector. We considered trying again with more modern weapons but because our trapping had been more effective we decided not to lug the weight of guns and ammo. That Baker rifle was heavy.

Og

 

[Weird Harold]

...Twenty-two cuz you can carry around more ammo,

Doesn't matter how much ammo you can carry around if you can't kill anything with it. .22LR is the round that allows packing the greatest number of shots, but most people are going to need all of those extra rounds just to get a critical hit on furry-mobile-food.

The sawed off shotgun is all myth. It adds little spread within its effective range.

Barrel length is a concern for portability. Any additional spread is a disadvantage that comes with a barrrel short enough to fit in a backpack or reasonable emergency survival kit.

How about 7.62 mm short ?

7.62 x 35 Russian (aka 7.62 Short) would be a reasonable choice for the rifled barrel of a combination rifle/shotgun style survival gun. The other major russian contender is the 5.45x39 Russian might be a reasonable choice, too -- being even lighter than

I'm just not sure that a rifled barrel is really necessary or desireable in a gun intended for non-shooters to defend and/or feed themselves with. The chance of an average person unpacking a survival gun and being able to hit the target with any sort of reliability is next to Nil. If nothing else, it would have to be sighted in because even if the sights haven't been knocked out of line, every shooter sees the sights differently.

From the standpoint of allowing three to five rounds for sighting in, 7.62 x 35 or 5.45 x 39 would be good choices because of the ammo weight factor balanced against knock-down power.

The .22 WMR (magnum) and and various center-fire .22 cartridges (going back to the 22 Hornet and black-powder days) have lighter bullets with sufficient power to be useful beyond shotgun range, but the lighter bullets require more accuracy which would probably would offset any ammo quantity gains from weight savings.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

WH

Most people cant hit a bull in the ass with a bass fiddle, and will starve in the midst of plenty. I watched the guy in Panama City fire at the school board and miss everyone with every shot. But a 22 can kill just about anything, and a shotgun load is 9 thirty calibre friends on a mission together.