suicide

[QuanYin]

Complete loss of hope and faith.

yet think about how many times some people get to that point but they dont do it. What is the difference between being right there and having the strenght to not do it, or just going ahead with it?

 

[Aurora Black]

Suicide is selfish, and ultimately cruel. It destroys, not only your hopes, dreams, aspirations, and future, but those of the ones who love you. It fills those left behind with a sorrow and pain so deep it turns to rage, and something so dark it borders on hatred.

It kills love. The love that you had to give, and the love that others still had to pour into you. No matter how dark, how bitter, how cold, your world was, there was someone looking for you, carrying a candle in the dark trying to find you and lead you home.

I can understand suicide. I can understand the pain, the fear, and the mindset behind it. Can I condone it? No. Can I learn to forgive it? I'll let you know when I figure that one out.

I second that. I see it as the ultimate copout, and it puts the ones left behind through hellish agony (especially if they had no idea that anything was wrong in the first place). I read somewhere that there's also a very high risk that close family members of the deceased take their own lives because they are tormented by the loss.

 

[Aurora Black]

Complete loss of hope and faith.

I you.

 

[impressive]

Complete loss of hope and faith.

Exactly.

 

[Aurora Black]

Imp is right about the pain, Lucky is right about the many motives, Rob is right about the societal view. I just know that although I've been depressive for decades, only once have I ever been suicidal, and that's not pain I ever wish to face again.

 

[rgraham666]

yet think about how many times some people get to that point but they dont do it. What is the difference between being right there and having the strenght to not do it, or just going ahead with it?

I'll have to disagree with you on this one, QuanYin.

I've been down many times since then. But there was always a small glimmer of hope in the future, or faith in myself. Almost imperceptible, but there.

When I made my attempt there was nothing. Not even the tiniest flicker.

 

[impressive]

I just know that although I've been depressive for decades, only once have I ever been suicidal, and that's not pain I ever wish to face again.

Amen, sister-jammies. Amen.

 

[QuanYin]

I'll have to disagree with you on this one, QuanYin.

I've been down many times since then. But there was always a small glimmer of hope in the future, or faith in myself. Almost imperceptible, but there.

When I made my attempt there was nothing. Not even the tiniest flicker.

no hope seems to be the key concept. What about potential hope? Or is that not really a consideration at the time?

 

[3113]

A parent who cannot make peace with leaving their children in what was their living hell while they escape to death. How can that be worse considering their mind set?

Or did you mean it is worse because the parent might survive and the children die?

I mean that the children don't get a choice and USUALLY the kids aren't in the same situation. The father who decided to suicide by burning himself and his kids in that car...he was in a terrible situtation, but the kids were living with their mother and they were doing all right. They were going to school, had friends, had a future. He took it all away from them without asking or caring.

He told them to stay where they were in the car, poured gas around the car, then set it on fire.

You tell me if those kids deserved to die that way. Burned to death, screaming in the back seat, because their father couldn't stand to go on living...and decided that they needed to die with him.

If we're talking about a parent who is on the streets and it's terrible, and terrible for their kids, too, and that parent knows the kids won't survive once they (the parent) is gone, and provides those children with the most peaceful end possible before taking their own life....okay. But that's not the usual case in these situations. Usually, the kids are fine. It's the parent who wants to leave the world--and they project that onto their kids, or just decide they want their kids with them.

Either way, it's usually pretty terrible.

 

[Aurora Black]

Either way, it's usually pretty terrible.

Inhuman, even.

 

[QuanYin]

I mean that the children don't get a choice and USUALLY the kids aren't in the same situation. The father who decided to suicide by burning himself and his kids in that car...he was in a terrible situtation, but the kids were living with their mother and they were doing all right. They were going to school, had friends, had a future. He took it all away from them without asking or caring.

He told them to stay where they were in the car, poured gas around the car, then set it on fire.

You tell me if those kids deserved to die that way. Burned to death, screaming in the back seat, because their father couldn't stand to go on living...and decided that they needed to die with him.

If we're talking about a parent who is on the streets and it's terrible, and terrible for their kids, too, and that parent knows the kids won't survive once they (the parent) is gone, and provides those children with the most peaceful end possible before taking their own life....okay. But that's not the usual case in these situations. Usually, the kids are fine. It's the parent who wants to leave the world--and they project that onto their kids, or just decide they want their kids with them.

Either way, it's usually pretty terrible.

there is no forgiveness for a parent or anyone who takes another life in that brutal way. My point was that if a parent is about to commit suicide and the thought is that they do not want to leave their child behind to have to deal with the same hell as they have. Can that be understood in any way?

 

[lucky-E-leven]

Yeah, I think so. I've known several children and parents of suicide victims and even though I can sometimes understand the 'why' I don't think it excuses the lack of courage in dealing with the impulse. I also recognise that the person with the suicidal impulse may be so ill that they can't rationally appreciate the full consequences - so I can sometimes feel a bit sorry for them - but always more sorry for the devastaion to the family left behind. Which, in turn, just makes me pissed off at the person who commits suicide.

The problem here is equating a lack of courage or personal strength with an overwhelming sense of hoplessness. I used to feel just as you do on the issue of suicide being selfish. I am the one left behind, as it were. I have been pissed off. I have railed at God, mother nature, father time, and most of all the person that took themself away from me. I still hate it, and I still have a hard time reconciling it. I have, however, done my best to get to the heart of the matter by discussing the impulse, as you put it, with those that would know. It's helped me a great deal in moving beyond my anger, frustration, and pain at the loss I've suffered.

And I know the selfish issue was discussed - I'm just putting in my vote!

And, don't get snippy with me and begin throwing exclamation points around willy-nilly. I'm not the one that took issue with your opinion.

 

[Equinoxe]

I will preface this by saying that I do not make a habit of getting involved in debates on suicide, since I do have strong opinions. Likewise, I will try to make this short and civil.

It hurts to lose someone, and there is a special kind of pain in knowing that they chose it; however, I believe that a person has every right to make that choice: they are their own. While it hurts and those who remain may not understand it, they had no control and no choice over when that person would die, or how. If someone I loved were to make that choice, it would be devastating, but I would try to remember them as the person I loved and keep that alive.

 

[QuanYin]

The problem here is equating a lack of courage or personal strength with an overwhelming sense of hoplessness. I used to feel just as you do on the issue of suicide being selfish. I am the one left behind, as it were. I have been pissed off. I have railed at God, mother nature, father time, and most of all the person that took themself away from me. I still hate it, and I still have a hard time reconciling it. I have, however, done my best to get to the heart of the matter by discussing the impulse, as you put it, with those that would know. It's helped me a great deal in moving beyond my anger, frustration, and pain at the loss I've suffered.
QUOTE]

If i may ask why are you angry? Are there other emotions too?

 

[QuanYin]

I will preface this by saying that I do not make a habit of getting involved in debates on suicide, since I do have strong opinions. Likewise, I will try to make this short and civil.

It hurts to lose someone, and there is a special kind of pain in knowing that they chose it; however, I believe that a person has every right to make that choice: they are their own. While it hurts and those who remain may not understand it, they had no control and no choice over when that person would die, or how. If someone I loved were to make that choice, it would be devastating, but I would try to remember them as the person I loved and keep that alive.

Gentle option. I like that, thank you.

Just a side note, why the need for the disclaimer?

 

[Equinoxe]

Gentle option. I like that, thank you.

Just a side note, why the need for the disclaimer?

You're welcome.

Suffice it to say, I can be somewhat less gentle in opinion sometimes.

 

[impressive]

... however, I believe that a person has every right to make that choice: they are their own.

I agree. It is a choice.



I disagree with the poster who labeled it an impulse, though. If it were an impulse (as I'm a very impulsive person), I'd be quite dead right now. No, it's a thoroughly reasoned decision. While I'm sure some people do it intending to hurt others, I think most of what we're seeing discussed in this thread is a choice to end one's pain.

Should I ever make that choice, anyone who judges me "selfish" for doing so can kiss my ass. Really, how arrogant do you have to be to pass judgement on the validity of someone else's feelings? (Heaven help anyone who tries to "save" me if I've taken that step. Damn, that would piss me off! I'd be angry at myself for fuckin' up my own demise & madder than a hornet at the SELFISH person who decided I didn't have the right to decide my own fate.)

 

[3113]

My point was that if a parent is about to commit suicide and the thought is that they do not want to leave their child behind to have to deal with the same hell as they have. Can that be understood in any way?

The point is--and here's where the "suicide is selfish" idea comes in--that a suicide often can't hear any other voice but their own. In the case of taking children along with them, it really is all about how they feel at that moment. And even the kid screaming "Don't mommy!" won't stop them becaues they just can't hear anything but their own, hopeless mandate.

And that's really not, IMHO, a valid or rational frame of mind to be in when making the mature and adult decision about whether a child should live or die.

Can it be understood? Of course it can. All parents, having gone through the world and met with it's problems, feel they know what is best for their children. THEY have been burned by the fire, so they know what it feels like and say, "Don't touch that!" to their kids to save them from being burned. What's so hard to understand about that?

But we come to that fundamental truth: you can't protect your kids from everything nor should you. Unless the parent has no doubts at all that the children will suffer through the exact same hell or worse as they, the parent, are suffering, then I don't think a parent can or should make such a decision for the child in the hopes of protecting them from it.

They are presupposing not only that the child will face such a hell, and react to it with the same hopelessness, but that the child will not be able to find another way out--and that presupposes a lot.

 

[FallingToFly]

so what finally makes a person do it?

For my fiancee, it was a final act of cruelty at his father's hands, the death of his mother, and the loss of what little sanity he had left. I've known all that since it happened. I knew, before I opened the letter, what he was going to tell me. It didn't make it any easier.

Earlier someone asked about pure mental anguish. There's always someone there, whether it be a stranger, a friend, a lover, a parent, even a child. There's -always- someone, somewhere, willing to reach for you. Sometimes, you just can't see through the darkness to see that light. I know all that.

What I know and what I feel are entirely different. My heart and head will war on this until the sky falls and hell becomes heaven, but won't resolve. They can't. I'm not unintelligent, and for th emost part, I'm emotionless when discussing issues similar to this, but this one, my heart takes control and starts screaming against the past.

 

[QuanYin]

And that's really not, IMHO, a valid or rational frame of mind to be in when making the mature and adult decision about whether a child should live or die.


They are presupposing not only that the child will face such a hell, and react to it with the same hopelessness, but that the child will not be able to find another way out--and that presupposes a lot.

A valid rational frame of mind to be in when making a decision about whether a child should live or die?? am not taking you on, I just dont understand that sentence. How can anyone be of rational mind when deciding on the death of a child?

Your second point, is it about the child surviving on their own in a world the parent sees as hell. or is it more specifically about the parent adding to that existing hell by commiting suicide?

 

[impressive]

How can anyone be of rational mind when deciding on the death of a child?

Ask the parents who pulled the plug.

Ask the parents who said, "No more chemo" and allowed their child's cancer to run its course.

Ask the parents who chose to abort upon learning their child had a disability.


We're not talking suicide any longer, obviously. I'm not saying I'd make the same choices, but I am saying those decisions were "of rational mind."

 

[QuanYin]

We're not talking suicide any longer, obviously. I'm not saying I'd reach the same decisions, but I am saying those decisions were "of rational mind."

Thank you, I understand that. I did not read the original message from 3113 from that perspective.

 

[AngeloMichael]

A few questions:

Is there a difference between someone who makes a conscious decision to take a gun and blow their brains out and a person who makes a conscious decision to allow a vice to destroy them because they can't fight it anymore, a la Nicholas Cage's character in Leaving Las Vegas?

Are they just as selfish? Less? More? Is it the same thing? Granted they are allowing more time so someone may get to them and help, but what if they refuse to listen or can't listen?

 

[QuanYin]

Part of the hopelessness is the feeling of a total loss of value to anyone else. You believe your life or existance has no value or importance to anyone else.
It is an end to a day to day existance that has no meaning to you, you believe to any one else.

a quote from a message i received. It's so sad that someone could possibly
feel so totally lost and hopeless

 

[Huckleman2000]

The point is--and here's where the "suicide is selfish" idea comes in--that a suicide often can't hear any other voice but their own. In the case of taking children along with them, it really is all about how they feel at that moment. And even the kid screaming "Don't mommy!" won't stop them becaues they just can't hear anything but their own, hopeless mandate...

That's a good point, and one that is reflective of the nature of depression. Selfish is the wrong word for it, although there is definitely a self-absorption to it. As Rob says, it's a loss of faith and hope - generally, but mostly personally. The maelstrom of despair is one's own. It's like being in a deep hole, and you can't see anything to either side of the opening at the top.

As I understand it, it's also a physical malady. The neuron's get locked in a certain self-reinforcing chemical pattern that is difficult to overcome without intervention. The 'fight or flight' reflex kicks in and goes out of control, yet there's no one to fight and nowhere to run, leading to even greater stress.