Suffering

[BrightlyGo]

Have you ever willingly suffered for another?

Isn't that a likely part of almost any relationship? When you get to the 'for poorer,' 'in sickness,' and 'for worse,' parts of your vows, for instance, there's going to be some suffering, but it's worth it.

But, yes, as a sub, that aspect of relationships has an odd thrill to it, over and above necessity - especially, if it's /not/ necessary, but, oh "elective suffering" going on. It's one thing to suffer for what someone you care about needs, another to suffer for what they merely want or enjoy - and it's another thing entirely to crave those opportunities. Opportunities to prove your love or worth, for instance, if only to yourself, or to purchase or re-pay future or past joy for yourself...

 

[CarolineB]

I love having a sub suffering for me. I've known for a while that I enjoyed pain and denial and humiliation. Something clicked for me very recently when I realised that it's about the suffering - not about the specifics - for me.

He has to want it, of course. To ask for it, even. But not in a way that he'll actually enjoy the whole of it. So a little further than he'd joyfully take, and with a very clear focus on it being for my pleasure. Submitting to what I want. Which is to watch him being uncomfortable, humiliated, in pain or whatever. Just suffering generally to please me.

I'm not new to D/s, but I'm still learning lots about myself. And when stuff like this just clicks into place, I find it so incredibly delicious.

 

[draig_OMalley2]

delicious

I love having a sub suffering for me. I've known for a while that I enjoyed pain and denial and humiliation. Something clicked for me very recently when I realised that it's about the suffering - not about the specifics - for me.

He has to want it, of course. To ask for it, even. But not in a way that he'll actually enjoy the whole of it. So a little further than he'd joyfully take, and with a very clear focus on it being for my pleasure. Submitting to what I want. Which is to watch him being uncomfortable, humiliated, in pain or whatever. Just suffering generally to please me.

I'm not new to D/s, but I'm still learning lots about myself. And when stuff like this just clicks into place, I find it so incredibly delicious.

You describe very well the dynamic of our D/s sessions, in which I submit to my mate of many years. At first, it was difficult for her to find a lot pleasure in my discomfort, I being the one who asked if we could include D/s into our relationship in the first place. Over time and experience, in arriving at a mutual understanding, we also discovered, like you, it is not about specifics, but about suffering, the desire to endure it on my part, and the willingness to accept it as an offering on her part.

Like you, we keep on learning as practitioners of this dynamic. With learning comes lots of mistakes, but with learning also comes the joy of moving to new levels of appreciation. What we find very intriguing is how manipulative my own sub-conscious can be in trying to turn a session to be all about me. She's learned to catch on to my scheming (I'm often not even aware of it myself) and knows how to guide a session to make sure she is in control.

As you mention, that involves me having to ask for it, sometimes having to wait for a response, sometimes being denied, sometimes being punished for asking...etc I just never know what she's going to do, or how far she is going to take me down the road, how much I will have to endure. I think being denied a session is the worst, since it makes me feel so humiliated for having asked, and then to be so unsatiated is the worst kind of enduring, which she seems to relish.

You said it all...incredibly delicious!

 

[pedal_dew]

You said it all...incredibly delicious!

Incredibly delicious, yes. For me, the experience is not part of a committed relationship, as it appears to be for you. I envy you that, although I'm in no hurry. I hope to engage in a serious relationship(s) later, for now content to test the waters in multiple ways. My bf is not part of my interest in D/s, very vanilla relationshoip there, and not seriously committed. We are friends. I'm first to admit my desire to endure for someone else is a pretty much selfish craving, not so much part of anything deeper. I'm very lucky to have a friend (gf from high school days) who enjoys participating. We both have bf's, and we've talked about our play in terms of bi-sexuality, but that "tag" just doesn't seem to have anything to do with it. We are playing, like you do when you're a kid and play at grownup things. And, yes, it can be so delicious. -Jill

 

[Primalex]

I skipped the first post - but then read it, after all the "hey, interesting stuff to think about" comments.

And...I don't get it
Stripping the first post from filler, I end up with:

What I'm referring to is a desire expressed by the sub to suffer for me. At her request.

While this is certainly not a response that all subs have, I've found that it is surprisingly widespread among the type of subs I have known. What seems to vary (in my experience) is what form this suffering might take. Obviously everyone is different. What works for one sub will not do anything for another, so it's a very personal thing. And often not even recognised by her at first.

As I mentioned, the kind of suffering desired can take many forms. It's a very personal thing, after all.

So... a submissive is willing to suffer in one way or the other for the right person in the right relationship. This is it?

 

[KoPilot]

So... a submissive is willing to suffer in one way or the other for the right person in the right relationship. This is it?

Was thinking about this yesterday when S was holding me in front of an open freezer door at the supermarket because I was dressed for the hot weather outside and I'd expressed how freakin cold I was just by being down that aisle.

That suffering seems pretty darn exclusive to a bdsm dynamic, but also doesn't seem to be what the OP is looking for. I think they're trying to draw some kind of line between "emotional" suffering and something "physical", even though the latter doesn't really happen without the former.

 

[Dyslexicea]

I skipped the first post - but then read it, after all the "hey, interesting stuff to think about" comments.

And...I don't get it
Stripping the first post from filler, I end up with:




So... a submissive is willing to suffer in one way or the other for the right person in the right relationship. This is it?

At time Primalex you're very good at simplifying complex questions. You surely could have saved visviva2 a lot of typing.

For me it has to be the right person and the right relationship but I'm not sure I suffer for her. Maybe I'm just self centered but I truly think my suffering is more for myself. Not completely mind you, I do have a need to please her, as she too has a need to please me. At time it can be just about her and I think I endure more to please her but if I'm truthful it's still about my own need.

 

[pedal_dew]

same for me...I think

At time Primalex you're very good at simplifying complex questions. You surely could have saved visviva2 a lot of typing.

For me it has to be the right person and the right relationship but I'm not sure I suffer for her. Maybe I'm just self centered but I truly think my suffering is more for myself. Not completely mind you, I do have a need to please her, as she too has a need to please me. At time it can be just about her and I think I endure more to please her but if I'm truthful it's still about my own need.

It's the same for me... I think. My dominant one and I have talked about this. We are both getting what we want, separately, out of it. And yet... at times, in the midst of suffering, I feel like I swoon for her, if that's the right word.

But we both admit that our play is filling a selfish need...mostly.

 

[visviva2]

Sorry for the lack of response to more recent posts as OP. I've been away in Southeast Asia for the last few weeks (currently in Singapore) and have not always had easy internet access.

While I understand that each response to the subject of this thread obviously reflects varying individual points of view, I believe that the type of suffering referred to here was clearly explained in my original post.

Just to clarify, I see suffering (in the sense used here) as very much an expression of love and/or devotion on the part of the submissive.

This doesn't mean it's not at all (or even intensely) satisfying... but it's not about self-gratification.

Clearly every relationship is different, and as a consequence the type of suffering involved can take endless forms so it's not a question of "what" but rather "why"...

Having said that, it would still be interesting to hear of different specific experiences but I'd also like to see some attempt to explain the "why" and describe your own personal response to placing yourself in that situation.

Is your suffering rewarding for you as an expression of your love or devotion?

Does it matter if the one you suffer for acknowledges your desire to offer them such token of your love or devotion?

How do you feel if you are refused permission to suffer (assuming you are subject to such control)?

Do you enjoy being asked to go further in your suffering than you had originally intended?

In the case of emotional suffering is it fulfilling for you to endure emotions which normally might be upsetting?

What are some examples of emotional suffering you have willingly endured? Jealousy? Humiliation? Others?

These are just some questions that immediately come to mind as examples which may stimulate some ideas for future posts. There are many other aspects of this complex issue which could equally well be explored.

Thanks again to all those whose thoughtful posts have appeared so far.

 

[KoPilot]

So you want to hear about the different kinds of suffering s-types go through, and the reasons they do so, but only if they're of the ungratifying sort and the reason is actually one thing (devotion)?

Do you or do you not see a variety of kinds of suffering to be relevant to your topic? You don't want "what"s (your suggested questions are all "what"s, btw), but you only also want to include a single kind of "why"?

 

[Dyslexicea]

For my own clarification I'll try to restate what you want.

You want to know how and in what way we, submissive women, would suffer for you, a dominant male, small d indented and not because your male, for your personal fulfillment. If we feel in any way we also receive satisfaction, fulfillment, maybe even pleasure in our own suffering we are to remain mute.

oui, oui, capitaine

 

[Slave_Katie]

Emotional and mental masochism! My Master is very much into emotional domination, and it can be amazingly draining.

There have been sessions where I have sat and just cried once my Master left, but I still enjoy it ^_^ He has the ability to completely destroy me with very little effort and leave me used and empty. Well, empty emotionally but filled physically.

 

[BrightlyGo]

Just to clarify, I see suffering (in the sense used here) as very much an expression of love and/or devotion on the part of the submissive.

This doesn't mean it's not at all (or even intensely) satisfying... but it's not about self-gratification.

Clearly every relationship is different...

Vanilla men often complain about how women "don't make sense" or say "I'll never understand women."

Well, subs are kinda like that.

Paradoxical.

Yes, we do suffer out of our love and devotion, and, yes, it /is/ about self-gratification for us.

And, sometimes, thinking about that drives us crazy, too.

 

[CBM514]

I view the act of suffering as a sub as a sign of absolute devotion and a "bending of their will" to someone else's...essentially it's a statement that, "I'll do anything for you and let you do what you wish to me in order to prove myself to you"...and to me the more extreme of an act or the more extensive the "suffering" you require then more the proof of my feeling of subrogation to you...to me suffering (either physically or emotionally) is the next evolution of more traditional "submission"...

 

[Evil_Geoff]

"Pain is inevitable. Suffering is optional." - Haruki Murakami, What I Talk About When I Talk About Running

Which was probably derived in part from the First Noble Truth of Buddhist philosophy - Right Understanding - "Pain in life is inevitable but suffering is not. Pain is what the world does to you, suffering is what you do to yourself. Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional."

 

[visviva2]

As BrightlyGo (and others) have correctly pointed out, self-gratification is not necessarily absent when suffering. What I was trying to say in an earlier post was that I feel it should not be the primary motivation.

Certainly, in my experience submissives are usually driven by complex motivations and it can be misleading to generalise since everyone's personal experience is obviously highly variable.

That's why I hope anyone with an interest in this topic will post about their own feelings and experience as that's the only way we can learn more about the complexities and contradictions involved in what is such a deeply personal and intense experience.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Vanilla men often complain about how women "don't make sense" or say "I'll never understand women."

Well, subs are kinda like that.

Paradoxical.

Yes, we do suffer out of our love and devotion, and, yes, it /is/ about self-gratification for us.

And, sometimes, thinking about that drives us crazy, too.

No it isn't paradoxical at all. It's simply a dynamic that is denied in our culture.

Oddly enough, I have been writing this exact thing, and neither the dom nor the sub have any illusions about this. And damn do they have a lot of fun!

 

[BrightlyGo]

No it isn't paradoxical at all. It's simply a dynamic that is denied in our culture.

Submission isn't denied by culture, at least, not denied women - it may be old-fashioned or un-feminist for a woman to submit as totally or sensually as we subs crave, but it's not denied.

What i meant was more personal, though, i don't find being submissive a straightforward experience, i have someone i love, who wants very much for me to be happy, but there's a certain core to what i need that i can't express to Her, not because society denies it or because language can't convey it, but because speaking it destroys it.

All the BDSM play is fun, and love & romance is wonderful, and sex is fantastic, and service is fulfilling... but they're none of them, nor all of them together, defining what i am as a submissive.

meh, i'm not expressing this at all well...

Oddly enough, I have been writing this exact thing, and neither the dom nor the sub have any illusions about this. And damn do they have a lot of fun!

Sounds interesting, i'd like to see if it /is/ 'the exact same thing' or not, but either way, should be cool.