Submissive or Passive

[MsWorthy]

All submissives aren't passive, but many are. Many are people-pleasers and will do most anything to make her/his SO happy. Since people-pleasers tend to be very flexible and have relatively few carved-in-stone opinions, they can agree with most/many stated opinions and do not have too many problems completing most tasks set for them.

These people are easy to be around, and I would think, many *dominants (as opposed to "tops") would feel some level of attraction to this "type" of person.

1. How can you tell whether a (self-identified) submissive is actually submissive or if she is just a passive type of person?

2. Must one partner be submissive in a PE, or can she/he be a passive people-pleaser and it work just as well?

3. Does it work fine for you, as a dominant, as long as you get what you need out of a relationship and your partner is happy because she/he is pleasing you?

4. How important is it to YOU that your partner be submissive and not (necessarily) passive?


*I define dominant, here, as one who needs control in a relationship, not just in bed.

 

[Lancecastor]

All submissives aren't passive, but many are. Many are people-pleasers and will do most anything to make her/his SO happy. Since people-pleasers tend to be very flexible and have relatively few carved-in-stone opinions, they can agree with most/many stated opinions and do not have too many problems completing most tasks set for them.

These people are easy to be around, and I would think, many *dominants (as opposed to "tops") would feel some level of attraction to this "type" of person.

1. How can you tell whether a (self-identified) submissive is actually submissive or if she is just a passive type of person?

2. Must one partner be submissive in a PE, or can she/he be a passive people-pleaser and it work just as well?

3. Does it work fine for you, as a dominant, as long as you get what you need out of a relationship and your partner is happy because she/he is pleasing you?

4. How important is it to YOU that your partner be submissive and not (necessarily) passive?


*I define dominant, here, as one who needs control in a relationship, not just in bed.

What if you like pleasing people and are dominant?

Is that allowed?

Lance

 

[Ebonyfire]

All submissives aren't passive, but many are. Many are people-pleasers and will do most anything to make her/his SO happy. Since people-pleasers tend to be very flexible and have relatively few carved-in-stone opinions, they can agree with most/many stated opinions and do not have too many problems completing most tasks set for them.

These people are easy to be around, and I would think, many *dominants (as opposed to "tops") would feel some level of attraction to this "type" of person.

1. How can you tell whether a (self-identified) submissive is actually submissive or if she is just a passive type of person?

2. Must one partner be submissive in a PE, or can she/he be a passive people-pleaser and it work just as well?

3. Does it work fine for you, as a dominant, as long as you get what you need out of a relationship and your partner is happy because she/he is pleasing you?

4. How important is it to YOU that your partner be submissive and not (necessarily) passive?


*I define dominant, here, as one who needs control in a relationship, not just in bed.

I do not like passive, so if they are passive, I pass them by. My subs are not passive at all. They are all self-assured dominant in their work/vanilla lives kinda guys. Those are the only submissive males that interest Me. I like movers and shakers.

Ebony

 

[MsWorthy]

for the one who PMed me (your mail box is full)

I suspect that the difference between a passive-type person and a submissive is that the submissive has a need/craving to be controlled, whereas a passive-type is motivated “just” by the desire to please her/his partner.

If this suspicion is true, would you not expect to ecounter more resistance to control from a passive partner in a D/s relationship, because the desire/need/craving to be controlled is not coming from inside (the submissive’s needs) but from outside (the dominant’s needs)?

does this make it clearer, or have I just muddied it up more? *smiles*

 

[spankableBelle]

from this submissive's point of view

I suspect that the difference between a passive-type person and a submissive is that the submissive has a need/craving to be controlled, whereas a passive-type is motivated “just” by the desire to please her/his partner.

If this suspicion is true, would you not expect to ecounter more resistance to control from a passive partner in a D/s relationship, because the desire/need/craving to be controlled is not coming from inside (the submissive’s needs) but from outside (the dominant’s needs)?

does this make it clearer, or have I just muddied it up more? *smiles*

According to The American Heritage Dictionary, passive as an adjective means 1. Not active, but acted upon. 2. Accepting without resistance, submissive.

Interesting, huh?

For myself, i am submissive, but i didn't think of myself as passive, until now.

i do resist control, though it is what i desire most to give over to another. To submit. i fight it out of fear, out of uncertainty...out of a passiveness that keeps me from stepping into the unknown and out of my own comfort zone.

We sometimes fight that which we want most for some of us are conditioned to believe that what we want we aren't worthy of, or will never achieve for this reason or that. Is that a cop out? Maybe. Maybe not.

i have opinions and i'm not afraid to share them. i don't always agee and will let that be known as well. i don't blindly accept that just because one says that they are Dom/me that they are. i don't give respect because it is demanded, it must be earned, and i don't let myself be used a doormat.

To me, being passive is just that. Letting it pass us by. Seeing it and not striving for it. Blindly accepting. Saying 'i only wish that...' i know that i do this in my own life and it is something that i have to work on daily. To be passive is to not make the changes necessary to fulfill the wish...

Can one be submissive without being passive? Yes...and so there is hope for me yet...

(i certainly pray that this made at least a little sense)

belle

 

[Lancecastor]

1. How can you tell whether a (self-identified) submissive is actually submissive or if she is just a passive type of person?

Passives tend to bore me or drive me crazy, whereas submissives make my penis get really hard. My penis is very knowing and wise in this way. Seriously, a lot of it is the glint in the eye and the attitudes expressed.

2. Must one partner be submissive in a PE, or can she/he be a passive people-pleaser and it work just as well?

I suggest that it could work in either case. But, as indicated above, mere passivity gets boring for me after a time.

3. Does it work fine for you, as a dominant, as long as you get what you need out of a relationship and your partner is happy because she/he is pleasing you?

Sounds good to me! Is this a trick question?

4. How important is it to YOU that your partner be submissive and not (necessarily) passive?

Passive is fun until about dessert time; by then, I'm wishing I could find a wormhole. A consenting submissive with a brain of her own is my preference always.

Hmmmm.... I think I equate "passive" with "stupid", whereas I equate "submissive" with "choice"...which is, I think, "smart"...or is that just stupid of me?

Lance


*I define dominant, here, as one who needs control in a relationship, not just in bed.

 

[Ebonyfire]

Re: from this submissive's point of view

According to The American Heritage Dictionary, passive as an adjective means 1. Not active, but acted upon. 2. Accepting without resistance, submissive.

Interesting, huh?

For myself, i am submissive, but i didn't think of myself as passive, until now.

i do resist control, though it is what i desire most to give over to another. To submit. i fight it out of fear, out of uncertainty...out of a passiveness that keeps me from stepping into the unknown and out of my own comfort zone.

We sometimes fight that which we want most for some of us are conditioned to believe that what we want we aren't worthy of, or will never achieve for this reason or that. Is that a cop out? Maybe. Maybe not.

i have opinions and i'm not afraid to share them. i don't always agee and will let that be known as well. i don't blindly accept that just because one says that they are Dom/me that they are. i don't give respect because it is demanded, it must be earned, and i don't let myself be used a doormat.

To me, being passive is just that. Letting it pass us by. Seeing it and not striving for it. Blindly accepting. Saying 'i only wish that...' i know that i do this in my own life and it is something that i have to work on daily. To be passive is to not make the changes necessary to fulfill the wish...

Can one be submissive without being passive? Yes...and so there is hope for me yet...

(i certainly pray that this made at least a little sense)

belle

sure it does, but I was not thinking about dictionary definitions but about the connotation of passivity, meaning what it connotes to me.

 

[spankableBelle]

Re: Re: from this submissive's point of view

sure it does, but I was not thinking about dictionary definitions but about the connotation of passivity, meaning what it connotes to me.

Understood

 

[cymbidia]

i do resist control, though it is what i desire most to give over to another. To submit. i fight it out of fear, out of uncertainty...out of a passiveness that keeps me from stepping into the unknown and out of my own comfort zone.

Like you, i'm submissive but not passive. I have a brain and i use it - all the time, not just when i'm working or dealing with my kids' teachers. From a sexuality perspective, i don't give the control of my deepest self - my submissive slf - lightly or easily. I have far more respect for the potential of the D/s bond then that. Offering simple human respect to all those i encounter is part of my persona but offering my allligience and submission to someone special, someone who knows how to use that to benefit us both, someone who is worthy of the immensity of my trust, is rare.

The control issue is the major part of my "surrendering" to a dominant. I can't pretend at that; i've got no real facility for playacting the "role" of a submissive. It's an on-off switch for me: either i'm in it all the way or i'm fighting it tooth and nail because i'm not comfortable yet. As soon as some kinda crucial comfort level is met, i willing give up the control and offer it open-heartedly to my dominant.

I don't, however, lose my capacity for reasoned though as part of my real submission. All of those who've been of value to me in my life have valued my ability to think, too, and my insistence on independance (to a point). I'm almost never really passive, as in without my own opinion or feelings or will. The very idea gives me the shudders.

We sometimes fight that which we want most for some of us are conditioned to believe that what we want we aren't worthy of, or will never achieve for this reason or that. Is that a cop out? Maybe. Maybe not.

Maybe. Maybe not.

It's extremely difficult for me, for example, to ask for emotional validation, as in, "please tell me that i'm loved, needed, valued". I can't ask for it, actually. If i did, and got it, i would feel it was of no real worth cuz i had to ask and of course you had to tell me then!
(I want you to just know.
Yes, as in read my mind.
What!!? You aren't a mind reader? You don't know this stuff without me saying it? Well that sucks for both of us, then, doesn't it, cuz i'll be unhappy but unwilling to tell you why - and you'll be wondering what the fuck you did now and how to fix it.).

i have opinions and i'm not afraid to share them. i don't always agee and will let that be known as well. i don't blindly accept that just because one says that they are Dom/me that they are. i don't give respect because it is demanded, it must be earned, and i don't let myself be used a doormat.

The real question here is why anyone at all in the world would think that just cuz they're on the other end of the flogger, they're naturally deserving of immediate and high-level respect from every submissive they happen across?

That's a bizarre headspace, there, boys and girls and bois.

Talk about your power trip...

Anyway, submissive - yes.
Passive - no.
I'm like everyone else here on this matter.

 

[MsWorthy]

Are there no people-pleasers here?

Or dom/mes with strong (24/7) control needs?

Do we have no one on this board who prefers the more passive, quiet type?

Come, friends and neighbors, I want to hear everyone's voice here.

Am I the only one here who prefers this type of submissive and recognizes the difficulty in telling them apart (submitting to please vs. submitting because of an internal need)?

 

[mskittykatt]

i'm not entirely sure i can wrap my brain around this completely but i'll respond anyway - sometimes just talking helps clairify things for me.

every job i've had in my life has been customer service oriented. i'm up front in your face - is there anything i can help you with. i'm the one that sells you things you had never thought of, and leaves you frustrated as you come back into the store to buy what you came for, but forgot.

i'm the one you complain to - that makes you feel heard - your feelings validated and that your problem will be solved. i live to serve - honestly. it's what i love - *profesionally*

i am also a service oriented person at home - i am a happy housewife. i like to run my home, do the shopping, have dinner ready and bake cookies. i'm really that kinda person.

...but i'd still have to say that my people pleasing is just for fun. Everytime i've worked was just to have extra money, and for the fun of it - getting out of the house, meeting people and doing a job that's fun for me.

submission for me is *much* different.

i guess the line for me is what the other person gets.
satisfied
- or
my all.

 

[Desdemona]

Are there no people-pleasers here?

Or dom/mes with strong (24/7) control needs?

Do we have no one on this board who prefers the more passive, quiet type?

Come, friends and neighbors, I want to hear everyone's voice here.

Am I the only one here who prefers this type of submissive and recognizes the difficulty in telling them apart (submitting to please vs. submitting because of an internal need)?

Nope, I am definitely not a people pleaser. I like it if people are pleased by what I do, but that ain't what motivates me. For me, submission is both an internal need and a choice. I choose who gets my submission.

 

[MsWorthy]

Thank you, MsKitty, for responding. Do you mind if I ask how submission is different for you?

 

[mskittykatt]

the pleasure i get from "people pleasing" is a lot of times selfless.

(i know this isn't exactly the same but maybe it can express the feeling i have inside that makes it different)

once a guy came through my checkout line in the store i worked at. he had 3 small children with him and had to put back some things that he didn't have the money for. cheese, yogurt, eggs and jello. the kids were upset and he was trying to tell them that he didn't have the money to buy everything.

i asked the next customer in line to hold on a moment and rescanned the items he left behind and ran them out to the parking lot after buying them for him myself.

i gave that family a few dollars worth of happiness and faith in people - but the cost was basicly nothing to me. (not that i'm rich but $10 worth of groceries equaled a whole lot more then that to them)
the people pleasing is a warm fuzzy feeling i get from giving someone else a smile - brightening up their day.

my submission fills *my* desires. something as simple as, "honey bring me a cup of coffee" can turn my insides to goo when all of his attention is focused on me, when it's just as easy for him to pour it as it is for me to bring it.

it's who i am that lets him ask me without feeling lazy - and who i am that compells me to bring it for him without feeling like i'm a servant.

in that one cup of coffee, i add sugar, cream and all myself.

i'm not sure that's what you asked... so please try again if i don't make any sense.

edited to add : i am definately a service oriented sub... but i require a lot of physical attention (read: harder, faster, more please!) as well - i guess that's another side to look at eh?

 

[morninggirl5]

To me, being passive is characterized by a lack of interest. I can be passive at times, in certain situations. If i am passive, it's because whatever decision is being made will have no impact on me personally or i don't believe the differences in the options are significant enough to affect me. If i'm being passive about something, my reply will be "i don't care" or "it doesn't matter."

If something is important to me, i'm definitely not passive. I've been described as a natural leader as a student and as a teacher and for three weeks this summer i was the one front and center for my family.

My submissiveness is anything but passive. Giving up my control is the only thing that feels natural and right with someone who has my trust.

Originally posted by cymbidia
It's extremely difficult for me, for example, to ask for emotional validation, as in, "please tell me that i'm loved, needed, valued". I can't ask for it, actually. If i did, and got it, i would feel it was of no real worth cuz i had to ask and of course you had to tell me then!
(I want you to just know.
Yes, as in read my mind.
What!!? You aren't a mind reader? You don't know this stuff without me saying it? Well that sucks for both of us, then, doesn't it, cuz i'll be unhappy but unwilling to tell you why - and you'll be wondering what the fuck you did now and how to fix it.).

*raising my hand* That's me! I've discovered that you don't have to read my mind and know exactly what's wrong. It's enough for me that you recognize something is wrong and bring the topic up. Ask me about it and i'll let it all out. If you don't recognize that something is wrong, though, i'm gonna be hurt because of the original problem and becaue you didn't recognize i was upset.

 

[MsWorthy]

Originally posted by mskittykatt
i'm not sure that's what you asked... so please try again if i don't make any sense.

Yes, that does make sense to me, MsKitty.

my submission fills *my* desires. something as simple as, "honey bring me a cup of coffee" can turn my insides to goo when all of his attention is focused on me, when it's just as easy for him to pour it as it is for me to bring it.

it's who i am that lets him ask me without feeling lazy - and who i am that compells me to bring it for him without feeling like i'm a servant.

in that one cup of coffee, i add sugar, cream and all myself.

This is an example of what I am asking about. Can you tell me, MsKitty (and anyone else that would care to answer), how a dominant can tell whether you are serving him his coffee because you want to please him or whether you are doing it because you need to serve [I am referring to the difference between being a servant (because doing so pleases your partner) and serving because it makes you feel good]?

~recognizes that it is a fine line and is struggling to define it~

 

[MsWorthy]

Nope, I am definitely not a people pleaser. I like it if people are pleased by what I do, but that ain't what motivates me. For me, submission is both an internal need and a choice. I choose who gets my submission.

This makes perfect sense, Desdemona. I didn't meant to suggest that any force was occurring.

However, there are some (and I know a few personally) who "serve" (submit) because they are the type who, naturally, want to please her/his partner and not because they have an innate need to submit.

 

[mskittykatt]

for the people i really care about - the people that carry a part of myself with them (my friends are real and forever, and i recieve as much as i give) i remember things. i know what kind of flavored creamer they like in their coffee, i know what their favorite color is - and finding gifts for them isn't hard, something will always jump out that is just "them".

pleasing my honey isn't something i have to *try* to think about. it IS what i do (...and think about)

maybe the joy on my face, or the familiar twinkle and comfort in my eyes reminds him that i do what i do because it makes me happy.

sometimes it's in bed, i'll tell him i really liked it when you said or did such and such today. it is important for him to know that what he's doing is "good for me" when we're exploring new areas with each other.

thanks for a good conversation - it's really got me thinking about things... and some naughty ways i can express this later!

 

[Desdemona]

This makes perfect sense, Desdemona. I didn't meant to suggest that any force was occurring.

However, there are some (and I know a few personally) who "serve" (submit) because they are the type who, naturally, want to please her/his partner and not because they have an innate need to submit.

Oh, I never thought you were inferring force or lack of consent. Perhaps I didn't articulate my thoughts very well. Let me try again because as I read my post, it didn't quite capture what I was trying to say.

If I care about someone, it is natural to me to offer to get them a drink or to fix them a meal or to take care of them in some way. I am a nurturing sort of person. I get a sense of satisfaction from doing things that feel nurturing. Perhaps I know you had a bad day and are tense. In that case, I might offer a back rub and fix you a drink. If you have a headache, I'll probably dim the lights, get you some aspirin and offer to rub your head or get you a cool cloth.

Having said all that, let me be perfectly clear. I don't want to be anyone's servant or waitress full time. I hate housework and although I'm a good cook, I don't enjoy cooking all day long. I have a pretty demanding career and I don't want to do those things after a long and stress filled day or week.
Whenever possible, I have someone else clean my house and I either have light simple meals or go out to eat. I think I deserve to have fun and relax when I'm not at work.

In my mind I've never really connected nurturing behaviors to being a people pleaser or a submissive. I don't do these things to please anyone but myself. But, it is a strong part of my personality. In my mind, I see being a people pleaser as being a wimp without any ability to stand up for your own opinions or rights. I see being passive as being weak or apathetic. Those are just my opinions, not definitions from a dictionary and I concede that others probably would define these things differently.

BTW, call me Des. All my friends do.

 

[mskittykatt]

the more people respond the less clear i am!

i don't see myself as any of the negative things mentioned in association with people pleaser or passive... but a lot of the things i do or enjoy would be lumped into one of those catagories.

(taking a break to think about this some more)

 

[Desdemona]

the more people respond the less clear i am!

i don't see myself as any of the negative things mentioned in association with people pleaser or passive... but a lot of the things i do or enjoy would be lumped into one of those catagories.

(taking a break to think about this some more)

I don't think of you in a negative light. Its just that some of us define words or phrases somewhat differently (perhaps based on past experiences). There are Dom/mes who would absolutely love you and hate me and vice versa. Its all good.

 

[ArtifexLignorum]

Yes, that does make sense to me, MsKitty.



This is an example of what I am asking about. Can you tell me, MsKitty (and anyone else that would care to answer), how a dominant can tell whether you are serving him his coffee because you want to please him or whether you are doing it because you need to serve [I am referring to the difference between being a servant (because doing so pleases your partner) and serving because it makes you feel good]?

~recognizes that it is a fine line and is struggling to define it~

The fine line illustrated provides for interesting reflection. Thank you.

It also suggests a personal experience to inject here.

Recently, She suggested that i take my morning coffee as she does. Normally i take coffee black. She directed that it was to be prepared in her fashion. It was to be 2/3 milk, cold, and heavily sugared.

Did i enjoy this in and of itself? No, from that respect it was horrid. Did i find this radical departure from the norm pleasureable? Yes. in that respect it was wonderful. To be allowed to preform even this trivial task for Her was sheer delight. It was enjoyed, simply because She said it was to be enjoyed.

Am i passive? No, not a snowballs chance in Miami.
Ami i submissive? Yes, without a doubt.

Which is a circuitous way of expressing dissagrement with the passive - submissive distinction. It seems untenable. Also the definitions offered seem suspect. They are of the square peg, round hole order. Just slightly askew from the perspective felt here.

 

[Desdemona]

The fine line illustrated provides for interesting reflection. Thank you.

It also suggests a personal experience to inject here.

Recently, She suggested that i take my morning coffee as she does. Normally i take coffee black. She directed that it was to be prepared in her fashion. It was to be 2/3 milk, cold, and heavily sugared.

Did i enjoy this in and of itself? No, from that respect it was horrid. Did i find this radical departure from the norm pleasureable? Yes. in that respect it was wonderful. To be allowed to preform even this trivial task for Her was sheer delight. It was enjoyed, simply because She said it was to be enjoyed.


Am i passive? No, not a snowballs chance in Miami.
Ami i submissive? Yes, without a doubt.

Which is a circuitous way of expressing dissagrement with the passive - submissive distinction. It seems untenable. Also the definitions offered seem suspect. They are of the square peg, round hole order. Just slightly askew from the perspective felt here.

I like being slightly askew.

I can also understand why doing this task for Her occasionally would be pleasureable. I think this is a very hard set of concepts to articulate. I also think it varies slightly for all of us and that may be why its so hard to pin down.

 

[mskittykatt]

I don't think of you in a negative light. Its just that some of us define words or phrases somewhat differently (perhaps based on past experiences). There are Dom/mes who would absolutely love you and hate me and vice versa. Its all good.

thanks Des,

i didn't mean to come off sounding like i did...
i don't feel judged by you - but it seems time to look more carefully *myself*

there is always a negative side with any positive... i'm thinking there are things here i need to look at more seriously, and deeply.

 

[Desdemona]

thanks Des,

i didn't mean to come off sounding like i did...
i don't feel judged by you - but it seems time to look more carefully *myself*

there is always a negative side with any positive... i'm thinking there are things here i need to look at more seriously, and deeply.

Darlin' thats cool. I've been doing a little deep thinking lately myself.