Subconscious Manipulation

[FuckMeEyes]

I am ridiculously guilty of this. I'm horribly argumentative, and will cheat like a motherfucker in an argument if I get really annoyed at the person I'm arguing with.

I was going to say that your first post in this thread makes you sound more like you're a successful debater more so than a manipulative bastard.

 

[00Syd]

Oh, I think that you're being too hard on yourself. I know quite a few people that think they're difficult, and I've never seen it. It's more relational. You have people around you that inspire whatever feelings cause you to be difficult. Around those that don't, you aren't. Seen it time and again.

That said, I do know some bloody difficult people. They almost always describe themselves as "easy to get along with" =P

Maybe its relational. I've been going through a rough time the last few months and I try my damnedest to not unload all my crap on everybody, which I think I want to do to vent, but I think also to get sympathy. I don't think I'm so much difficult as I am just, wearisome. Like, you know when people talk to you about their problems and you want to help so you talk to them and try to give them advice but eventually you just get sucked into their problems and get exhausted yourself. I'm that person. I've been trying to cut it out.

 

[Netzach]

I am ridiculously guilty of this. I'm horribly argumentative, and will cheat like a motherfucker in an argument if I get really annoyed at the person I'm arguing with.

Doo de doo, hm, yeah. *cops to that*

Isn't successful Domination a form of cognizant manipulation though, at root?

I mean this is why it's BAAAD for me not to flex my status in a romantic relationship. Because not given this kosher agreed-to cool way of manipuating, I will resort to the less cool kinds and...

well I was taught well.

 

[Netzach]

Gotta agree. It's not essential, there's other 'things' equally hot, but it is hot. Especially when you realise she's trying to manipulate you, and then she realises you realised and there's a moment of common realisation of what is about to ensue

This facet of submissive personality jumps the cock/pussy divide, just so you know. And it's nice to sit back and watch the antics.

 

[FurryFury]

Manipulation is a word that most people have a knee jerk negative reaction to.

I don't know your situation Gigi but I do know this, manipulation can be a constructive force. I learned how to manipulate people as a child, in order to stay alive. I mean that quite literally. It worked! Woo hoo!

Now if someone is telling you that you are manipulative, you have to ask yourself, just why did that person say that?

Is it because you are in fact manipulative in a way (I'm guessing) they don't like?

Or is it, a way of manipulating YOU or putting you down.

I've found people often project what they do onto others.

Did they feel you won something with them unfairly?

Did they just find it a turn off?

I'm not saying make excuses or deny a problem. I'm just saying not everyone someone you care about says is true or in your best interests to act on.

Some people I know who are manipulative in a negative way, try to make you "prove" your love to them (over and over and . . .) and/or make you do things you do NOT want to do. I find that irritating. I've learned how to repel that crap and distance myself from those people.

In any case, if you truly think you have a problem, (but not if someone has simply told you that you do), then the first step is becoming consciously aware of it.

The second is wanting to change.

The third is setting little reachable daily goals for yourself.

The next is to keep take baby steps toward that change.

If you should take steps backward, forgive, start new and keep going toward your goals.

As for me, I personally use my excellent, well honed, manipulation skills for the greater good and enjoyment of those close to me now. (No one is flying into killing rages around me these days!) They know I'm doing it. They love me for it! Life is pretty good.

 

[Homburg]

There's some good stuff in this thread. Good on ya, Gigi.

----

I was going to say that your first post in this thread makes you sound more like you're a successful debater more so than a manipulative bastard.

How does that line go? "The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was making people believe he didn't exist"? I am a successful debater. I am also a manipulative bastard. There's a difference for me, and I draw that line between debate via facts and logic, and debate via sophistry. When I put on my sophist shoes, I'm being manipulative.


-----

Maybe its relational. I've been going through a rough time the last few months and I try my damnedest to not unload all my crap on everybody, which I think I want to do to vent, but I think also to get sympathy. I don't think I'm so much difficult as I am just, wearisome. Like, you know when people talk to you about their problems and you want to help so you talk to them and try to give them advice but eventually you just get sucked into their problems and get exhausted yourself. I'm that person. I've been trying to cut it out.

I can understand that. Still, I think you're being harsh on yourself, darlin. Admittedly, it's good to identify these sorts of problems and work on them, but don't be too down on yourself.


----

Doo de doo, hm, yeah. *cops to that*

Isn't successful Domination a form of cognizant manipulation though, at root?

I mean this is why it's BAAAD for me not to flex my status in a romantic relationship. Because not given this kosher agreed-to cool way of manipuating, I will resort to the less cool kinds and...

well I was taught well.

I would agree. Domination is manipulation. Then again, I do not consider manipulation to be an inherently bad thing. As FurryFury says above, manipulation can be a constructive thing. I've done some very good things via conniving and manipulation.

 

[rida]

I do this as well. I focus on the negative and harp on the bad in order to either gain sympathy or to drum up pity. It works for a while but in the end, people just get tired of it. I know I am not doing it in a malicious way, but I do it none the less. If you feel this is something that is negative in your life, then you are in a perfect place to make a change. Don't wait till you are set in your ways, trust me.

I remember a time when I used to do that a lot. I needed validation and my friends were kind enough to give it to me. And I was/am thankful to them for it.

Now, I also remember a girl that used to do a slightly different version of it. She would put herself down to you while praising you, but in a way that made you realize that deep down she thought that you were even beneath her as she was better than you and yet aware of not being good enough. How is that for manipulative?

I don't know what is going on in your life, but from reading your words on Lit, you do not sound mean or manipulative in a bad way. But if you feel it is a problem, than you are half a way to the solution, as awareness is the first step. (and from your words to 00Syd, you sound on the right path )

 

[SweetGigi]

Manipulation is a word that most people have a knee jerk negative reaction to.

I don't know your situation Gigi but I do know this, manipulation can be a constructive force. I learned how to manipulate people as a child, in order to stay alive. I mean that quite literally. It worked! Woo hoo!

Now if someone is telling you that you are manipulative, you have to ask yourself, just why did that person say that?

Is it because you are in fact manipulative in a way (I'm guessing) they don't like?

Or is it, a way of manipulating YOU or putting you down.

I've found people often project what they do onto others.

Did they feel you won something with them unfairly?

Did they just find it a turn off?

I'm not saying make excuses or deny a problem. I'm just saying not everyone someone you care about says is true or in your best interests to act on.

Some people I know who are manipulative in a negative way, try to make you "prove" your love to them (over and over and . . .) and/or make you do things you do NOT want to do. I find that irritating. I've learned how to repel that crap and distance myself from those people.

In any case, if you truly think you have a problem, (but not if someone has simply told you that you do), then the first step is becoming consciously aware of it.

The second is wanting to change.

The third is setting little reachable daily goals for yourself.

The next is to keep take baby steps toward that change.

If you should take steps backward, forgive, start new and keep going toward your goals.

As for me, I personally use my excellent, well honed, manipulation skills for the greater good and enjoyment of those close to me now. (No one is flying into killing rages around me these days!) They know I'm doing it. They love me for it! Life is pretty good.

this is an amazing post. Thank you for your insight and POV. It will help me reflect better and hone in on where I am exactly.


--------------

I remember a time when I used to do that a lot. I needed validation and my friends were kind enough to give it to me. And I was/am thankful to them for it.

Now, I also remember a girl that used to do a slightly different version of it. She would put herself down to you while praising you, but in a way that made you realize that deep down she thought that you were even beneath her as she was better than you and yet aware of not being good enough. How is that for manipulative?

I don't know what is going on in your life, but from reading your words on Lit, you do not sound mean or manipulative in a bad way. But if you feel it is a problem, than you are half a way to the solution, as awareness is the first step. (and from your words to 00Syd, you sound on the right path )

I suppose I just need to continue to evaluate and mull things over still.


I just want to be healthy. I don't want to push people away with the tendencies I have adopted for what ever reason. I never want to again be almost perfect. I just want to be loved and accepted for who I am. That isn't to say that I am not willing to see and work on my flaws, I just don't want them constantly put in front of me like a dirty shame. I don't need to wear a scarlet letter. I just need to be loved. I don't know. Mebbe this is me being manipulative again. I really am not trying to drum up pity, I'm just trying to understand me. I'm tired of hating myself b/c I constantly feel less than acceptable for who I am.

I just don't know.

 

[FurryFury]

this is an amazing post. Thank you for your insight and POV. It will help me reflect better and hone in on where I am exactly.

I'm glad you found some value in it.

*hug*

 

[intothewoods]

I just want to be healthy. I don't want to push people away with the tendencies I have adopted for what ever reason. I never want to again be almost perfect. I just want to be loved and accepted for who I am. That isn't to say that I am not willing to see and work on my flaws, I just don't want them constantly put in front of me like a dirty shame. I don't need to wear a scarlet letter. I just need to be loved. I don't know. Mebbe this is me being manipulative again. I really am not trying to drum up pity, I'm just trying to understand me. I'm tired of hating myself b/c I constantly feel less than acceptable for who I am.

I just don't know.

Gigi, you mentioned in a thread a while back that you were going to look into therapy. Did you ever do that? As great as the advice is on this board, I think a good therapist would really help you go a long way with the issues you've brought up. Not all therapists are good - in fact, you really have to look hard for a good one. But I've benefited immensely over the years from therapy.

I am ridiculously guilty of this. I'm horribly argumentative, and will cheat like a motherfucker in an argument if I get really annoyed at the person I'm arguing with. I've a few friends that know me well enough to catch me when I'm being purposefully tricky, and have met a few folks that caught on to it as well (usually in the legal profession, certain religions, or fellow philosophical types). It's tough for me to catch, as I get into a certain mindset when I get like this, and the argument is all that matters.

I've never enjoyed argument for it's own sake, or sophistry. And when I detect it in someone, I'm likely to bow out and say forget it. I just don't have the energy or interest in that.

I am very stubborn, and I love being right, but I can pretty quickly shift to big picture thinking and ask, what's the goal here. What are we talking about? What do we want?

 

[SweetGigi]

Gigi, you mentioned in a thread a while back that you were going to look into therapy. Did you ever do that? As great as the advice is on this board, I think a good therapist would really help you go a long way with the issues you've brought up. Not all therapists are good - in fact, you really have to look hard for a good one. But I've benefited immensely over the years from therapy.

I have seen countless therapists over the years and they have all said the same thing basically. That I am a hopeless cause of deep seeded issues that I won't allow to come to the surface. It has even been suggested that I enter myself into a psyche ward for help. I don't have a lot of faith in therapy, but I am willing myself to go back....again.

 

[intothewoods]

I have seen countless therapists over the years and they have all said the same thing basically. That I am a hopeless cause of deep seeded issues that I won't allow to come to the surface. It has even been suggested that I enter myself into a psyche ward for help. I don't have a lot of faith in therapy, but I am willing myself to go back....again.

Do you think they're right, or just assholes? You do have to be willing to do the work. Therapy is kind of a partnership. But I've never heard of multiple therapists saying that a person is hopeless.

 

[Homburg]

I've never enjoyed argument for it's own sake, or sophistry. And when I detect it in someone, I'm likely to bow out and say forget it. I just don't have the energy or interest in that.

I am very stubborn, and I love being right, but I can pretty quickly shift to big picture thinking and ask, what's the goal here. What are we talking about? What do we want?

I agree, This is why I consider it a personality flaw in myself.

 

[Netzach]

Do you think they're right, or just assholes? You do have to be willing to do the work. Therapy is kind of a partnership. But I've never heard of multiple therapists saying that a person is hopeless.

I haven't either. I don't think you're hopeless, but that you won the asshole therapist lotto.

It's like dating, cut ties, move on. There IS the right one out there.

 

[00Syd]

I actually just had a long conversation with my mother over the phone about all this. I've accused her of being passive aggressive in the past, and she just brought it up again. While doing Passover with family in Colorado, she was treated terribly by her Aunt who practically slapped her in the face with her passive aggressive actions. So we had a good talk about what it is she does. My mother says things really nicely in a way so that you know that she really thinks you did a terrible job about something else. She said she's trying to work on it, and I'm happy about the whole thing.

 

[FurryFury]

I have seen countless therapists over the years and they have all said the same thing basically. That I am a hopeless cause of deep seeded issues that I won't allow to come to the surface. It has even been suggested that I enter myself into a psyche ward for help. I don't have a lot of faith in therapy, but I am willing myself to go back....again.

That's just wrong although, you do need to do the hard work being willing to open up and deal with those issues, no one should say a client is hopeless, much less "countless therapists."

I don't have a lot of faith in therapists either and for very good reasons. I've seen them be okay to ineffective to down right dangerous.

Still, if I thought I needed help I'd try to find the "right" therapist and get it.

*HUGS*