stingy cheapskates

[dr_mabeuse]

Indonesia is the largest Muslim nation in the world, isn't it?

15 million won't even build a grammar school over here. It's really chump change.

Surely the administration knows how this must look to the rest of the Muslim world.

---dr.M.

 

[Couture]

Indonesia is the largest Muslim nation in the world, isn't it?

15 million won't even build a grammar school over here. It's really chump change.

Surely the administration knows how this must look to the rest of the Muslim world.

---dr.M.

That our God is mightier and has chosen to smite them.

 

[Boxlicker101]

Indonesia is the largest Muslim nation in the world, isn't it?

15 million won't even build a grammar school over here. It's really chump change.

Surely the administration knows how this must look to the rest of the Muslim world.

---dr.M.

Besides money, the US is also providing supplies, personnel and logistics. I don't know how anybody can put a price tag on things like that.

I remember a US humanitarian effort in Somalia a few years ago. A movie, "Blackhawk Down," was made from that effort.

 

[Couture]

Besides money, the US is also providing supplies, personnel and logistics. I don't know how anybody can put a price tag on things like that.

I remember a US humanitarian effort in Somalia a few years ago. A movie, "Blackhawk Down," was made from that effort.

Black Hawk helicopters used to fly in supplies to hungry Somalies? Let me think on that tonight.

Our God is still the baddest ass God around.

 

[Guest]

At the airport in Bangkok, other governments had set up booths to greet nationals who had been affected and to help repatriate them, she said.

That was not the case with the U.S. government, Wachs told her mother. It took the couple three hours, she said, to find the officials from the American consulate, who were in the VIP lounge.

Because they had lost all their possessions, including their documentation, they had to have new passports issued.

But the U.S. officials demanded payment to take the passport pictures, Helen Wachs said.

The couple had managed to hold on to their ATM card, so they paid for the photos and helped other Americans who did not have any money get their pictures taken and buy food, Helen Wachs said.

"She was really very surprised" that the government did so little to ease their ordeal, she said.

Full CNN article

Seems to me, as usual, We will give millions and billions to relief efforts overseas but our own people tend to get fucked.

 

[Boxlicker101]

Black Hawk helicopters used to fly in supplies to hungry Somalies? Let me think on that tonight.

Our God is still the baddest ass God around.

The mission was food distribution but some of the warlords who wanted to make a lot of money from the misery of their countrymen accepted Bin Laden's offers and attacked the Americans with the modern weapons that were provided. The US Marines were able to hold their own but they did take losses of men and materiel.

 

[Virtual_Burlesque]

. . . I remember a US humanitarian effort in Somalia a few years ago. A movie, "Blackhawk Down," was made from that effort.

Movies about historic or current events are useful as a way to arouse interest, but getting all your information about any event from Hollywood can be a disastrous policy.

Soldiers can be brave in the service of disastrous policies . . .

What "BlackHawk Down" Leaves Out

 

[Colleen Thomas]

The mission was food distribution but some of the warlords who wanted to make a lot of money from the misery of their countrymen accepted Bin Laden's offers and attacked the Americans with the modern weapons that were provided. The US Marines were able to hold their own but they did take losses of men and materiel.

The mission was to hunt down a war lord. The tactical failure was two fold, using the same tactics repreatedly, thus allowing the enemy to plan for it and having the black hawks operating too far from armor and infantry support. A good deal of over confidence was also involved, as the army at the time felt the black hawk was impervious to ground fire. It is not impervious to the effects of a soviet era RPG to the tail rotor, a tactic developed and refined in Afghanistan by the insurgents there against soviet Mil-24s.

Unless we are thinking of different episodes.

 

[moonlight elf]

I believe that Relief efforts should be our focus. There are still so many missing and so many who need immediate help that their needs come first.

Edited to Add: All the help so far has been great but there is a long way to go still.

 

[Boxlicker101]

The mission was to hunt down a war lord. The tactical failure was two fold, using the same tactics repreatedly, thus allowing the enemy to plan for it and having the black hawks operating too far from armor and infantry support. A good deal of over confidence was also involved, as the army at the time felt the black hawk was impervious to ground fire. It is not impervious to the effects of a soviet era RPG to the tail rotor, a tactic developed and refined in Afghanistan by the insurgents there against soviet Mil-24s.

Unless we are thinking of different episodes.

The specific incident resulted from trying to hunt down a warlord but the purpose of the Americans in Somalia was to feed the hungry, and the warlords were an obstacle. There was also a lot of overconficence involved.

 

[Couture]

The specific incident resulted from trying to hunt down a warlord but the purpose of the Americans in Somalia was to feed the hungry, and the warlords were an obstacle. There was also a lot of overconficence involved.

So we were there to feed the people. However, their leader was in the way. We try to take him out, then a fight breaks out. Instead of feeding, we end up killing the Somalis.

This is somehow related to a confidence issue.

I need to get this movie.

 

[dreampilot79]

So we were there to feed the people. However, their leader was in the way. We try to take him out, then a fight breaks out. Instead of feeding, we end up killing the Somalis.

This is somehow related to a confidence issue.

I need to get this movie.

You're absolutely right.... They love us so much... they try and kill us for helping.... not our fault if we wield more firepower. They want food.. they get it..... they want a fight... they lose way more than us.

How come the instigators of all the shit just sit back and laugh?

 

[Couture]

You're absolutely right.... They love us so much... they try and kill us for helping.... not our fault if we wield more firepower. They want food.. they get it..... they want a fight... they lose way more than us.

How come the instigators of all the shit just sit back and laugh?

They are a sovereign nation. They don't want our help - fuck 'em.

I haven't watched this Black Hawk Down movie, and it seems I need to. I could very well be missing some important information and I am by no means well read on this conflict. HOWEVER.

It seems to me that a peaceful distribution of food and water to hungry Somalis shouldn't need Black Hawk helicopters. I remember after we were struck by the hurricane, they had to fly food and water in with helicopters. They weren't Black Hawks.

I mean, could you imagine another country promising aid to the US, but showing up in gunships and fighterplanes? How would you react?

 

[Virtual_Burlesque]

. . . It seems to me that a peaceful distribution of food and water to hungry Somalis shouldn't need Black Hawk helicopters. . .

All you have to do is read the article I posted, and you will get this much:


Phase I was to feed the starving people, and that was a success.

Then they decided to go to Phase II (against some opposition) “nation building."

When you build a nation by marginalizing the leader of a large tribal presence, what you are really building is the foundation for a war.

There were other, tactical mistakes made as well, but that was the main problem at the root of the incident.

 

[Boxlicker101]

So we were there to feed the people. However, their leader was in the way. We try to take him out, then a fight breaks out. Instead of feeding, we end up killing the Somalis.

This is somehow related to a confidence issue.

I need to get this movie.

The "leader" was no more a leader than a Mafia Don is a leader in the United States. This is a good comparison because the warlord in question was no more than a criminal extorting anybody he could. The US forces were there with strictly clean hands but the warlord saw them as a threat and used the weapons that Bin Laden had supplied. The movie was based on a true story although somewhat fictionalized.

 

[Virtual_Burlesque]

. . . The movie was based on a true story although somewhat fictionalized.. . .

Somewhat fictionalized, indeed!

Somali warlord Mohamed Farrah Aidid was the recognized leader of the Habr Gidr "a large and powerful clan planted deep in Somalia's past and present political culture.”

The UN leaders (with some opposition) decided to Marginalize Aidid and the Habr Gidr.

One of the ways they did this was to pump sixteen TOW missiles and two thousand rounds of cannon fire into a house where Habr Gidr clan members were meeting, included Habr Gidr members who planned to argue against Aideed's anti-U.N. stance, literally blowing apart — religious leaders, elders, even women in their colorful wrap dresses, on hand to serve tea.

What unspeakable criminals they must be, not to thank us for our humanitarian assistance.

Even in Mogadishu, if you watched the film, US forces managed to extract a “favorable” kill ratio of hundreds and hundreds of Somali to 18 American dead.

Yes, we had strictly clean hands — no doubt about it!

 

[Colleen Thomas]

Box has some grounds here. The warlords were severely disrupting te flow of humanitarian aide. Hijacking it and then selling it on the blackmarket. Removing or reaching an accomodation with the warlords was very much neccessary to break the cycle of food not getting to the starving.

It's more complicated than a simple we were doing this or they were doing that.

 

[dreampilot79]

Even in Mogadishu, if you watched the film, US forces managed to extract a “favorable” kill ratio of hundreds and hundreds of Somali to 18 American dead.

Yes, we had strictly clean hands — no doubt about it!

George Patton said it best although I'm sure I screwed up the quote.... It is not your dubty to die for your country but to make some other poor bastard die for his!

It wasn't Adid who started the gunfight there.... It was street thugs... and it wasn't any single clan that made the retreat so bloody for Americans. It was the love the general population felt from being fed. They treated the American Soldiers like The James gang in Kansas... everybody go grab your gun and start shooting.

Again.. you start a firefight with American soldiers and you INVITE massive firepower. Don't go blaming the soldiers for not appreciating being killed. They started it (even if our actions did put us in the perfect position for it).

Don't blame us for giving more than we got. You pick a fight... you get what you asked for. I feel no sympathy for the dead Samali's

 

[Virtual_Burlesque]

. . . I feel no sympathy for the dead Samali's

Which is probably one good answer to put in the Why so many Anti-American? thread.

Patton notwithstanding, our purpose was to feed staving Somali's as a humanitarian gesture. There was no need for anyone to die.

It was the as long as we are here, let's arrange their lives so it suits us urge which seems to infest so many western powers, but especially America, that brought about the bloodshed.

This is an important lesson to learn — finally — from Mogadishu, as we are about to enter a long phase of humanitarian effort in Southeast Asia, and our record for meddling there is already so abysmal.

 

[Virtual_Burlesque]

Double Post

 

[BlackShanglan]

Patton notwithstanding, our purpose was to feed staving Somali's as a humanitarian gesture. There was no need for anyone to die.

I understand the emotional impulse behind this, but I can't agree that this is true. When people are starving, there is very often someone gaining a great deal or money and/or power out of that situation. Even Bob Geldof - hardly a conservative icon - stated that he wouldn't give two cents for most of the governments in Africa at the time he was there. People who are desperate and starving can be a useful tool, and it has been a very long time since various groups realized that you can, indeed, wring blood from a stone if you squeeze hard enough. Some warlords make relief shipments impossible not merely from a greedy wish to control all supplies, but from an active desire to prevent relief itself. This is wretched and evil but true - it is easier to control people if you can prevent them from acquiring the necessities of life. When that is the situation, people will die. The warlords controlling resources will see to it, as they will not easily relinquish the power they have gained.

Shanglan

 

[dreampilot79]

Which is probably one good answer to put in the Why so many Anti-American? thread.

Patton notwithstanding, our purpose was to feed staving Somali's as a humanitarian gesture. There was no need for anyone to die.

It was the as long as we are here, let's arrange their lives so it suits us urge which seems to infest so many western powers, but especially America, that brought about the bloodshed.

This is an important lesson to learn — finally — from Mogadishu, as we are about to enter a long phase of humanitarian effort in Southeast Asia, and our record for meddling there is already so abysmal.

You are absolutely right. My point exactly. What right do we have to determine other governments. If they have thugs who want to control the distribution for their own ends....so be it. We don't have to contribute to them. We don't have to right the worlds wrongs.

We had no right to try and ARREST a thug in a foreign country. The only thing we did have aright to do is ANSWER the fire when we recieved it. No one should have been killed. All that would have taken is for NO ONE to SHOOT AT US.

As for me, I think that we should STOP helping. Let the world hate us for what we DON'T do for a damn change. Hell I don't see any line of foreigners trying to help the people in Apalachia and our own government is too busy helping in Samalia where our thanks is dead Americans. We should be helping our own poor.... after all no one else is!!!

 

[BlackShanglan]

The ultimate good, toward which we should all strive and which none of us embodies, is to do good for its own sake, not for reward, admiration, or return. To do good when the recipients are thankless and the world is scornful is the highest good, and the purest.

Shanglan

 

[Virtual_Burlesque]

I am not claiming that Adieed was a saint, he was after all a warlord, but, local politics dealt from strength, and warlords were what was there.

Adieed was a warlord, so, for that matter was Ali Mahdi. As far as that goes, U.N. Secretary-General Boutros Boutros-Ghali had supported the dictator Siad Barre, whom Aideed had previously ousted.

Despite these impediments to tranquillity, the UN mission’s Phase I ‘humanitarian assistance’ had been successful. It was only after the UN changed goals to Phase II ‘nation building’ by marginalizing one of the larger players (Adeed) and attacking the Habr Gidr that their inherent differences escalated into full-scale battle, and got out of control.

As I mentioned to Box, uncritically watching movies are a damn poor way to study either historic, or current events.

 

[dreampilot79]

Despite these impediments to tranquillity, the UN mission’s Phase I ‘humanitarian assistance’ had been successful. It was only after the UN changed goals to Phase II ‘nation building’ by marginalizing one of the larger players (Adeed) and attacking the Habr Gidr that their inherent differences escalated into full-scale battle, and got out of control.

As I mentioned to Box, uncritically watching movies are a damn poor way to study either historic, or current events.

I do agree with you that movies are an awful source of history.

I disagree that phase I was a success. We provided ENOUGH food but were unable to get it to the right place. We should have said FUCK it at that point. Instead we tried to fix the problem.

As I said before... we had no right to fix the problem


If the world wants to kill us for caring... then it's time we stopped caring.