Staying at home pride .vs. Out in the world greed

[BlueSugar]

While venting in my livejournal - I made this statement.

"Which leads me to thinking. With so much breakup in the world, single parenting, adoption, children leaving home at earlier ages and less family gathering around a common table to share - these activities will decrease and it will become less popular and then finally out of society, which will in time become a norm of society.

People marrying later, having children later (despite an obvious babyboom after the soliders come home) ...I wonder if it'll actually go backwards, though - it will be difficult to overcome pride and greed to have someone be a 'stay at home parent.' "

I had a response with a BDSM twist - which inturn led me to post it here. We've had threads on marrying in BDSM, and the various relationships and deviations we all have in our lives. Pretend for a moment I/we am/are the type to get married and have children - and with my/our education wish to work in the world but not to gain excessive material wealth etc...

(the I/we -my/our -isn't just for M and I, but for the rest of you as well.)

Thoughts?

 

[TNRkitect2b]

While venting in my livejournal - I made this statement.

"Which leads me to thinking. With so much breakup in the world, single parenting, adoption, children leaving home at earlier ages and less family gathering around a common table to share - these activities will decrease and it will become less popular and then finally out of society, which will in time become a norm of society.

People marrying later, having children later (despite an obvious babyboom after the soliders come home) ...I wonder if it'll actually go backwards, though - it will be difficult to overcome pride and greed to have someone be a 'stay at home parent.' "

I had a response with a BDSM twist - which inturn led me to post it here. We've had threads on marrying in BDSM, and the various relationships and deviations we all have in our lives. Pretend for a moment I/we am/are the type to get married and have children - and with my/our education wish to work in the world but not to gain excessive material wealth etc...

(the I/we -my/our -isn't just for M and I, but for the rest of you as well.)

Thoughts?

In our cases, the "pride" factor of staying home is less of an issue, for we have an advantage. The reason I posit this is simple.

Imagine after you graduate. Assume that you and M are still together, and that your relationship has deepened in the realm of D/s. As you two are getting started, suppose he decided that you should stay home, and gave you some valid proof that you don't need that brand new car every 3 years, or the latest and largest TV in the neighborhood. In other words, if the financial needs of your household could be met on one income. By taking that out of the equation, you are left with only your pride and greed driving you to not be at home.

Now, M decides as the Dominant, you will stay at home. By turning the denial of your pride and greed into a D/s power play, your submission counteracts the greed and pride.

I label this "our" advantage, because we both deal with D/s in our relationships, and are able to use the D/s power play to our advantage.

Just food for thought.

 

[Aeroil]

I am extremely confused

 

[BlueSugar]

I am extremely confused

About what? Talk it out with us

 

[TNRkitect2b]

I am extremely confused

What part is confusing you? Let us know, and we may be able to reword and explain it a bit better.

 

[Netzach]

Re: Re: Staying at home pride .vs. Out in the world greed

I... you are left with only your pride and greed driving you to not be at home.

So the only reason a person works in this society and the only thing to be gained from working outside the home, for a woman, is pride and material wealth?

How do you feel about architecture, again?

 

[Xelebes]

Well, there is several articles indicating it is actually harder for a single income family to stay afloat - with some people suggesting that the income of a single person has gone down between 5-15% over the past 20 or 30 years. And this not including 1980 or 1970 dollars - if that were the case, try doubling the percentage numbers.

However, these are mere statistics and can be jaded.

Anyways, on to the topic at hand. I'd usually classify this as a normal relationship decision that is to be made, however it can be distorted to be thought that the D/s element is at play.

 

[TNRkitect2b]

Re: Re: Re: Staying at home pride .vs. Out in the world greed

So the only reason a person works in this society and the only thing to be gained from working outside the home, for a woman, is pride and material wealth?

How do you feel about architecture, again?

I see your point, and conceed it. I should have stated within the boundaries of my scenario above that other facters were also discussed and determined not to play a factor.

 

[Netzach]

Well, there is several articles indicating it is actually harder for a single income family to stay afloat - with some people suggesting that the income of a single person has gone down between 5-15% over the past 20 or 30 years. And this not including 1980 or 1970 dollars - if that were the case, try doubling the percentage numbers.

However, these are mere statistics and can be jaded.

Well, in my experience they are right on. Why work as well as my husband even without kids? Because I like dentistry, never mind the fact that the car is old.

 

[Netzach]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Staying at home pride .vs. Out in the world greed

I see your point, and conceed it. I should have stated within the boundaries of my scenario above that other facters were also discussed and determined not to play a factor.

Don't get me wrong, there is a point at which I wonder why certain wealthy people even have children, they see so little of them...

but I also have compassion for women who are not cut out to limit their conversational exchanges to two-year-old speak for a full year, yet still want to be good parents and can be.

 

[TNRkitect2b]

Well, there is several articles indicating it is actually harder for a single income family to stay afloat - with some people suggesting that the income of a single person has gone down between 5-15% over the past 20 or 30 years. And this not including 1980 or 1970 dollars - if that were the case, try doubling the percentage numbers.

However, these are mere statistics and can be jaded.

Anyways, on to the topic at hand. I'd usually classify this as a normal relationship decision that is to be made, however it can be distorted to be thought that the D/s element is at play.

I have seen those statistics as well, yet I do believe that in America, the majority of our "needs" are actually wants. I happen to know first hand of a woman who is raising two daughters on an income of approximately $10,000 US. She is able to live a life of comparative ease, to include internet access, and extras for treats and wants . She does this by having an old but dependable truck, no cable tv, no cell phone, eats plainly but healthfully, and shops smartly. She doesn't buy into the need for the "extras" in life that many of us do. So, it is doable. The question to ask is would you be willing to live without the luxuries?

As for the D/s, I see the nature of the relationship allowing an extra influence to be brought to bear against the "want"

Of course, these thoughts are being thought out as I type, so for all I know, I may be full of shit. I still think it is worth discussing and look for more views.

 

[BlueSugar]

Re: Re: Re: Staying at home pride .vs. Out in the world greed

So the only reason a person works in this society and the only thing to be gained from working outside the home, for a woman, is pride and material wealth?

How do you feel about architecture, again?

I can't answer for him. But jobs are needed to give a service for the people. People have different interests... so we pick a job that makes us happy (hopefully) and we work towards it... it goes round circle ... we all know this. But job is getting paid for services rendered.
If one can gain a comfortable living for stay at home wife 2.5 children lifestyle
It all comes down to being happy and getting money.

Unless one is comfortable doing service (volunteer)work of course. Cut out that we choose what we work towards for a profession and gain happiness bc we can choose.

Not saying that the only reason is pride and material wealth. But say you spent X amount of money getting a degree and so did your spouse... but since your spouse is the bottom, they stay at home instead of yourself.
It would be difficult to put pride aside for the bottom after the process they went through and the only reason they are at home is because of their stature in the relationship.
Greed wouldn't be a big factor other then to live more comfortably then one could on a one salary house hold... american society pushing "bigger greater more..." in everyone's minds on the back burner.

Xelebes
Anyways, on to the topic at hand. I'd usually classify this as a normal relationship decision that is to be made, however it can be distorted to be thought that the D/s element is at play.

Forget "normal relationship" decisions - this is the distorted D/s element at play

 

[TNRkitect2b]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Staying at home pride .vs. Out in the world greed

Don't get me wrong, there is a point at which I wonder why certain wealthy people even have children, they see so little of them...

but I also have compassion for women who are not cut out to limit their conversational exchanges to two-year-old speak for a full year, yet still want to be good parents and can be.

I agree that they can be. I do not feel that all women should be relegated to this. Nor do I feel that all women should be in the workplace. Each should find their niche according to their needs and requirements.

However, if it is pride and "keeping up with the jones" that is making a family a two income one, instead of need, I also see that as being inherently wrong, especially if there are children involved. (and yes, i will allow that there is a need for a stay at home parent to have an oportunity to do adult things with other adults outside of the home, to avoid having to limit themselves to 2 year old speak. )

 

[Mr Blonde]

I think you are describing the "Simple Living" lifestyle.

If you want to mix BDSM with simple living? Based on what I know, I'd say those separate concepts are complimentary and can work well together.

It is like anything -- can you be evangelical Christians and have a BDSM relationship? Can you be star-trek groupies and have a BDSM relationship? Blending shared interests together into a coherant "relationship philosophy" works very well for some people!

 

[TNRkitect2b]

But in a case where it is only pride that is keeping a sub working. (I can see this being especially relevant for male subs), assuming there is no need for a second income, and the job the sub has happens to be unfulfilling for them, could not the D/s element provide an extra means to overcome the percieved shame of being a stay at home spouse?

This would apply even if there were no children involved.

 

[BlueSugar]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Staying at home pride .vs. Out in the world greed

I agree that they can be. I do not feel that all women should be relegated to this. Nor do I feel that all women should be in the workplace. Each should find their niche according to their needs and requirements.

However, if it is pride and "keeping up with the jones" that is making a family a two income one, instead of need, I also see that as being inherently wrong, especially if there are children involved. (and yes, i will allow that there is a need for a stay at home parent to have an oportunity to do adult things with other adults outside of the home, to avoid having to limit themselves to 2 year old speak. )

I tried to use TOP/bottom where I could, stay at home wife 2.5 children sort of slipped out bc of the imagery and the "norm" of the "traditional" lifestyle in my mind. Its ingrained no matter what we tell ourselves.

Keeping up with the jones' is what american society has become, despite any one living alternatively. Homes that do not have stay at home parents (may have a nanny of sorts) do not give children the right growing environment- which was the beginning of my thoughts about the stay at home parent is becoming an ghost race and its affect on the home ... and it possibly coming full circle with people realizing it to stay home (but cannot bc income and keeping up with the jones' has led society to more expensive of a life style on a whole) ... but it would take a bit of time.

Then add the D/s "regulations" on it all.

 

[Xelebes]

I have seen those statistics as well, yet I do believe that in America, the majority of our "needs" are actually wants. I happen to know first hand of a woman who is raising two daughters on an income of approximately $10,000 US. She is able to live a life of comparative ease, to include internet access, and extras for treats and wants . She does this by having an old but dependable truck, no cable tv, no cell phone, eats plainly but healthfully, and shops smartly. She doesn't buy into the need for the "extras" in life that many of us do. So, it is doable. The question to ask is would you be willing to live without the luxuries?

Yeah, I have that kind of upbringing myself. My parents had 15-25 grand a year with siz children sort of deal. Right now I am doing ok with only 5-6 K a year. But the cost of food is still going up and shelter is too. Inflation is having an impact on what foods we can buy. But people will survive ok with little pay, the question is how much of the people are living in that same condition.

What I am basically saying is that the purchasing power was greater then than now. Two incomes, while compensating for this difference while still making more. What this causes is a strain on the single-income families. Though, this is helped with the government subsidising/price-setting wheat and other farm goods to make the food accessible to the poor.

Anyways, enough of that. If we are talking the D/s twist.... then.... there isn't much of a twist to it as it is kinda status quo "from the fifties".

...


...


...


http://www.davidicke.net/emagazine/vol12/articles/bentley/StockwellDay.jpg


But in this new day and age, the idea of both parents working (which in all honesty is not uncommon as it was the norm for both partners to be working in the first half of the 18th century.) The idea of submission of staying at home against the desires of greed and a little better prosperity does work... I guess.

 

[Aeroil]

still a bit confused but I'll contribute what I can . Personally I'm not that extravagant, give me an internet connection, a small place to stay and I'm just fine. Although I haven't entered my profession yet, I really want to, I want to work. The idea of retiring bothers me, not working anymore, I think it would drive me nuts. Granted, all the adults I know say that "when I'm older it will be different" on retirement and dozens of other things, quite frankly that really pisses me off, espically when they say things like, when I'm older I'll do things like avoid paying parking tickets or something. In my opinion that's immoral, and suggesting that I'm going to be doing things that I think are immoral is very offencive. *ahem* anyway, back on topic, enough of my "being 18 sucks" rant. If/when I have kids, I would really like to be able to spend time with them, but I don't know whether I could give up working or not to do so, maybe If I can make a carreer of writing instead of IT, I could do that, maybe. 'course I'd have to finish my book and find a pulisher for that to work, which I doubt. As far as my domme giving up working, it would be her choice, of course, if she wanted to give up work to stay with the kids, I can't see myself having any say in it. Hope that contributed, the young 18 year old viewpoint lol. Or maybe I'm completely off-topic, but I hope not.

 

[TNRkitect2b]

I think you are describing the "Simple Living" lifestyle.

If you want to mix BDSM with simple living? Based on what I know, I'd say those separate concepts are complimentary and can work well together.

It is like anything -- can you be evangelical Christians and have a BDSM relationship? Can you be star-trek groupies and have a BDSM relationship? Blending shared interests together into a coherant "relationship philosophy" works very well for some people!

Yes, I am describing that lifestyle. I'm not saying that everyone should live it, or even that those who do, do so to the extremes shown in the British comedy "The Good Life" but it is something to think about.

Just getting some ideas out for people to discuss... thinking out loud so to speak.

 

[TNRkitect2b]

still a bit confused but I'll contribute what I can . Personally I'm not that extravagant, give me an internet connection, a small place to stay and I'm just fine. Although I haven't entered my profession yet, I really want to, I want to work. The idea of retiring bothers me, not working anymore, I think it would drive me nuts. Granted, all the adults I know say that "when I'm older it will be different" on retirement and dozens of other things, quite frankly that really pisses me off, espically when they say things like, when I'm older I'll do things like avoid paying parking tickets or something. In my opinion that's immoral, and suggesting that I'm going to be doing things that I think are immoral is very offencive. *ahem* anyway, back on topic, enough of my "being 18 sucks" rant. If/when I have kids, I would really like to be able to spend time with them, but I don't know whether I could give up working or not to do so, maybe If I can make a carreer of writing instead of IT, I could do that, maybe. 'course I'd have to finish my book and find a pulisher for that to work, which I doubt. As far as my domme giving up working, it would be her choice, of course, if she wanted to give up work to stay with the kids, I can't see myself having any say in it. Hope that contributed, the young 18 year old viewpoint lol. Or maybe I'm completely off-topic, but I hope not.

I don't think you are off topic at all. I see your points as very valid. (it helps that I am surrounded by people your age here at school)

Thaks for the response!

 

[TNRkitect2b]

Yeah, I have that kind of upbringing myself. My parents had 15-25 grand a year with siz children sort of deal. Right now I am doing ok with only 5-6 K a year. But the cost of food is still going up and shelter is too. Inflation is having an impact on what foods we can buy. But people will survive ok with little pay, the question is how much of the people are living in that same condition.

What I am basically saying is that the purchasing power was greater then than now. Two incomes, while compensating for this difference while still making more. What this causes is a strain on the single-income families. Though, this is helped with the government subsidising/price-setting wheat and other farm goods to make the food accessible to the poor.

Anyways, enough of that. If we are talking the D/s twist.... then.... there isn't much of a twist to it as it is kinda status quo "from the fifties".

But in this new day and age, the idea of both parents working (which in all honesty is not uncommon as it was the norm for both partners to be working in the first half of the 18th century.) The idea of submission of staying at home against the desires of greed and a little better prosperity does work... I guess.

I agree it's harder to do with inflation.

And yes, in a way it is akin to the fifties. But there is the difference now that the societal norms are reversed.

Do you feel that being in a D/s relationship would help you deal with the societal pressures should you as a sub become a stay at home spouse?

(this is open to everyone, not just X)

 

[BlueSugar]

still a bit confused but I'll contribute what I can . Personally I'm not that extravagant, give me an internet connection, a small place to stay and I'm just fine. Although I haven't entered my profession yet, I really want to, I want to work. The idea of retiring bothers me, not working anymore, I think it would drive me nuts. Granted, all the adults I know say that "when I'm older it will be different" on retirement and dozens of other things, quite frankly that really pisses me off, espically when they say things like, when I'm older I'll do things like avoid paying parking tickets or something. In my opinion that's immoral, and suggesting that I'm going to be doing things that I think are immoral is very offencive. *ahem* anyway, back on topic, enough of my "being 18 sucks" rant. If/when I have kids, I would really like to be able to spend time with them, but I don't know whether I could give up working or not to do so, maybe If I can make a carreer of writing instead of IT, I could do that, maybe. 'course I'd have to finish my book and find a pulisher for that to work, which I doubt. As far as my domme giving up working, it would be her choice, of course, if she wanted to give up work to stay with the kids, I can't see myself having any say in it. Hope that contributed, the young 18 year old viewpoint lol. Or maybe I'm completely off-topic, but I hope not.

Ah, but once you move out of dorm living or living at home. You will have to pay your internet/phone/tv bill. You will want things and be unable to do so because of rent.
You will need a better paying job to keep your simple lifestyle. To have a little money on the side and save up for the next stages in your life - you will want an even better paying job. (lets forget school loans and such don't need to be paid off.)
Lets keep with the growing thought that retirement funds and extras are going to be taken away or decreased severly - and the age pushed back because life expectancy has risen due to quality of living and technology.
If/when children come into the picture- that is more money, and more of your time devoted to their lives and growing needs and wants. Even on a simple lifestyle - it is difficult to do with two incomes, let alone one - with the american standard of living rising because inflation.

You are 18, and the world holds nothing but possibilities for you- so before you knock not being published or being locked out of certain things in life ... forget it all... the world holds nothing but possibilities, as long as you make the right decisions.
And you're right, being the bottom in the relationship- you wouldn't have much say in the matter if the foot was put down like the thread is suggesting.

You aren't off topic, and your opinions and thoughts were right on track ... keep your eyes on the future and your dreams bright. Live and learn
Get a better grip now? Please keep giving us your input, don't think its just for oldies ... the more you talk it out and think it through - the further you'll make it in life. (no matter the situation.)

 

[Aeroil]

hehehe, yes, yes, but for starters I'm not even sure I'd get a phone because I hate talking on the phone, I get nervous for no damn reason. I might need one anyway but whatever. Also given things like I don't have a car, so I won't pay for that, I like walking, and I have very little social life lol so none of those expences, will probably help allieviate some of the stress on the income. err, anyway, once I graduate it will probably be much easier, there's a major shortage of IT graduates in Canada right now, I won't have any problem at all getting a job unless things change drastically in the next half-decade, which is doubtful. ah, anyway, I'm not much into economics and stuff, you probably know a lot better, you've been through it. My brother actually didn't move out of here until he was 20 *shudder*. I don't care if it nearly bankrupts me, I'm moving out ASAP, I hate it here. And then I'll spare some money for a toy . (And I absolutely do not mean the kind of toy I'd let my kids play with .) Also, if I can get my book published then I doubt I'll be struggling too much. Now that I mention it I need to do some editing, some of the logistics in ch.1 are off.......

 

[Xelebes]

hehehe, yes, yes, but for starters I'm not even sure I'd get a phone because I hate talking on the phone, I get nervous for no damn reason. I might need one anyway but whatever. Also given things like I don't have a car, so I won't pay for that, I like walking, and I have very little social life lol so none of those expences, will probably help allieviate some of the stress on the income. err, anyway, once I graduate it will probably be much easier, there's a major shortage of IT graduates in Canada right now, I won't have any problem at all getting a job unless things change drastically in the next half-decade, which is doubtful. ah, anyway, I'm not much into economics and stuff, you probably know a lot better, you've been through it. My brother actually didn't move out of here until he was 20 *shudder*. I don't care if it nearly bankrupts me, I'm moving out ASAP, I hate it here. And then I'll spare some money for a toy . Also, if I can get my book published then I doubt I'll be struggling too much. Now that I mention it I need to do some editing, some of the logistics in ch.1 are off.......

So wait, are you the other me who has created another account, purporting that I indeedlive in Montreal?! Or at least the other half of me lives in Montreal?

 

[catalina_francisco]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Staying at home pride .vs. Out in the world greed

Not saying that the only reason is pride and material wealth. But say you spent X amount of money getting a degree and so did your spouse... but since your spouse is the bottom, they stay at home instead of yourself.
It would be difficult to put pride aside for the bottom after the process they went through and the only reason they are at home is because of their stature in the relationship.
Greed wouldn't be a big factor other then to live more comfortably then one could on a one salary house hold... american society pushing "bigger greater more..." in everyone's minds on the back burner.


Forget "normal relationship" decisions - this is the distorted D/s element at play

I lived below the poverty line while raising my 2 single handed, and though it was tough at times, it was doable and we didn't go without food, nor the occasional treat of going to the movies, buying a new CD etc. Then once my children were a little older, I went back and finished high school, then onto university where I excelled despite my and my children's ill health, hospital stays, increased financial burden, and obtained my degree, then onto the dream job (dream for me anyway) and building a professional reputation which reached all corners of my country (and which I still find is astounding for doing what one loves and has a passion for).

Then I decided to put that same level of dedication into finding the relationship which would fill that void in my personal life that can only be filled by a good relationship. It worked and I committed to the most precious and wonderful man on earth (yeah, I'm biased ). Though if I really felt I needed to go out to work he would support that need as long as it didn't interfere with us, he does prefer me to stay home where I am available if and when he needs me for whatever reason. There are those who feel my staying at home must mean I have no skills and choice, or that it creates a brainbuzz of nothingness....LOL, I feel sorry for them that their only way of feeling worthy or active is to go out and earn as much money as they can as proof they are okay. It is not everyone's motivation, but it does seem to be if you don't work people feel it must mean there is a reason other than choice, and for which you should feel a lesser being.

We manage...sure more money would be great at times.....but it is not impossible even though we still have debts, mortgage, one teenager at home, and expensive hobbies. I don't find I have a need to go to work to keep my brain firing...in fact I now have more time to concentrate on using my mind on learning more about the world, spirituality, politics, writing, art etc. I don't feel I am cheated, or that the study was wasted as it is used everyday in simply living our life and interacting with others.

There is a huge belief system that we have to have everything, and now, where when my parents married it was normal to save for a home, move into the shell of a house without more than the most basic items of furniture (often loaned or second hand), from which you worked toward adding to and improving until you had the house filled with the needs and wants of living. Along with our greed and haste to have everything instantly has come the disposeable society where few things, possessions included, are valued highly, easily replaced, obtained at any cost, and a life where people do not value or care for each other as they once did. It often reminds me of the 3 year old tantrum in that if people don't get their needs met tenfold and in the style they feel appropriate, they act out their dissatisfaction on the rest of the world and those around them with an 'the world owes me' attitude.

Catalina