Status of women in Islam today's great moral challenge?

[Recidiva]

You are certainly condemned by the oppressors. We actually know little about the feelings of Muslim women, because they don't have much voice. A handful speak out against the oppression, but only those who are on the outside. Those who are on the inside are not allowed to speak out. Therefore, the only ones we hear from are those who profess to love their chains. Stockholm Syndrome actually may be a good analogy. Given the fact of the oppression, why shouldn't we suspect something of the sort?

You say you are not silent, and would not be in the face of oppression, but you have not stated here unequivocaly that it is wrong for a society to defend and sustain the oppression of women and making them second class citizens. To me you are silent. Are you not silent to others?

No, my opinions are free. I just don't agree that it's my moral burden to carry.

Since women in the United States wear the same garb, keep the same traditions, and otherwise don't really care to have anyone refer to them as oppressed, I'll take their word for it.

Is it extreme? Yes. Am I their savior and guiding light? Hell, no.

 

[Roxanne Appleby]

I just don't agree that it's my moral burden to carry.

Whose, then?

Were you an Englishman in the 1850s would you say, "Chattel slavery in the Southern states of the U.S. is not my moral burden to carry."

Were you an American in 1938 would you say, "The plight of European Jewry is not my moral burden to carry."

Were you a Western European in 1980 would you say, "The struggle of Polish dockworkers is not my moral burden to carry."

 

[Recidiva]

Whose, then?

Were you an Englishman in the 1850s would you say, "Chattel slavery in the Southern states of the U.S. is not my moral burden to carry."

Were you an American in 1938 would you say, "The plight of European Jewry is not my moral burden to carry."

Were you a Western European in 1980 would you say, "The struggle of Polish dockworkers is not my moral burden to carry."

I don't think America is doing a good job making moral choices for other nations. They're not even doing a good job making moral choices for themselves. It's overstepping bounds.

I really don't remember any other countries kicking in during our civil war, really. We didn't enter the war against the Nazis until we were struck. Solidarnosc and Walesa did well without me.

I have enough fight here at home maintaining my own civil rights. And nobody overseas or even homebound here appears to be fighting for me. So I have my hands a bit busy.

 

[Roxanne Appleby]

I don't think America is doing a good job making moral choices for other nations. They're not even doing a good job making moral choices for themselves. It's overstepping bounds.

I really don't remember any other countries kicking in during our civil war, really. We didn't enter the war against the Nazis until we were struck. Solidarnosc and Walesa did well without me.

I have enough fight here at home maintaining my own civil rights. And nobody overseas or even homebound here appears to be fighting for me. So I have my hands a bit busy.

I'm not speaking to an abstract "America," I'm speaking to an individual, Recidiva. I'm sorry your busy, or maybe glad that you're busy standing up for your civil rights rather than allowing yourself to be downtrodden, but I'm not asking you to do anything that takes up any time. I'm only asking you to assert a basic moral principle, that it is wrong for a society to defend and sustain the oppression of women and making them second class citizens.

For all you know there is some frightened Islamic teenage girl who has stolen onto the internet and is reading this right now. She is cheering me on, but worried that I am not representative. She is silently begging you to say it, to reassure her she is not alone, that there are those on the outside who have freedom and who care that she does not.

 

[Pure]

i imagine

that said Islamic girl,

RA For all you know there is some frightened Islamic teenage girl who has stolen onto the internet and is reading this right now.

is best served if counsuled by an older sister who have studied abroad--and kept some core values of Islam.

she is best served is she learns about shelters set up for women, as in Jordan.

i'm entirely unclear how she is 'served' if she reads Southern Baptist or Urban Atheist, Mr. or Mrs Righteous condemning what the males, esp. the upper class ones are doing in her society: "It is oppressive, you should not do it."

i'm pretty sure the upper class males reading Mr. or Mrs Righteous are not moved.

I would think that said Islamic teen would look at the behavior of Mr. or Mrs. Righteous-- has he or she sent money for medical services? Has he or she travelled to the Middle East on any humanitarian missions? Or merely to hand out Bibles?

Or, does Mr or Mrs Righteous, after having 'witnessed' about Islamic women, go on to 'witness' about gay marriage and millionaire 9-11 widows, the injustice of taxing estates worth over 3 million dollars, and the vast moral superiority of the US over all other countries.

Further, i think she'd wonder if Mr. Southern Baptist says, "This whole society hasn't found Jesus, and must convert to be saved," or Mrs. Righteous says, "Islam is superstition and the ideology of conniving, phoney, religious leaders selling 'snake oil' talk of the afterlife."

I think she's be most impressed at reading stories of Islamic women who've settled in the West and become liberal in dress etc. but have kept their faith, and who say,
"I am an Islamic woman, and I also embrace modernity."

 

[Recidiva]

I'm not speaking to an abstract "America," I'm speaking to an individual, Recidiva. I'm sorry your busy, or maybe glad that you're busy standing up for your civil rights rather than allowing yourself to be downtrodden, but I'm not asking you to do anything that takes up any time. I'm only asking you to assert a basic moral principle, that it is wrong for a society to defend and sustain the oppression of women and making them second class citizens.

For all you know there is some frightened Islamic teenage girl who has stolen onto the internet and is reading this right now. She is cheering me on, but worried that I am not representative. She is silently begging you to say it, to reassure her she is not alone, that there are those on the outside who have freedom and who care that she does not.

Well, I speak for myself and for those I've spoken to. If said girl is reading, my hope would be that she'd feel free to speak to me because I listen and I'm open to compromise, not just me laying down the law.

 

[oggbashan]

Whose, then?

Were you an Englishman in the 1850s would you say, "Chattel slavery in the Southern states of the U.S. is not my moral burden to carry."

Were you an American in 1938 would you say, "The plight of European Jewry is not my moral burden to carry."

Were you a Western European in 1980 would you say, "The struggle of Polish dockworkers is not my moral burden to carry."

Working Englishmen and Englishwomen voted not to process cotton from the South during the Civil War because slavery was anathema - they effectively put themselves out of work on a principle.

The plight of a shipload Jewish refugees in 1938/9 shames most European countries.

As for Muslim women - as usual the answer is 'It depends'. Women in Iran under The Shah, and in Iraq under Saddam Hussein had more freedoms than in other countries. In Afghanistan before the Taleban (supported and financed by the West) women had more freedom than they have now.

Not all Muslim women are second class citizens. It depends WHERE they live. Other societies that are not Muslim can oppress women as harshly as any fundamentalist mullah.

Og

 

[neonlyte]

Thread Title: Status of women in Islam today's great moral challenge?

No. My personal moral challenge is the plight of Africa's children.

I have great sympathy for the inequality practiced in some, not all, Islamic nations, I have greater sympathy for the plight of Africa, a continent sorely abused where 8 children die every minute from malnutrition and disease. 20% die from Malaria, a treatable disease. This year 4000 school teachers will die in South Africa alone and 45 million of Africa's children will not attend a school.

 

[Pure]

would second that, neon, but add that to save the kids you have to save a few adults, and that involves such things as medical treatments, access to drugs, etc.

in the case of AIDS, affordable or free drugs-- and some condoms, perhaps, besides the GWB-inspired lectures on chastity. relatively cheap, many of these items.

a least compared to the billion per day spent now in Iraq.

 

[Roxanne Appleby]

would second that, neon, but add that to save the kids you have to save a few adults, and that involves such things as medical treatments, access to drugs, etc.

in the case of AIDS, affordable or free drugs-- and some condoms, perhaps, besides the GWB-inspired lectures on chastity. relatively cheap, many of these items.

a least compared to the billion per day spent now in Iraq.

You certainly need short term relief of the types mentioned here, but to actually have a life worth living you also need a nation that enjoys the rule of law instead of kleptocracy, an economic system that rewards instead of punishes enterprise, and an opportunity to create wealth by selling goods to the wealthy nations without having to overcome indefensible tariff barriers erected at the behest of special interest union or agricultural lobbies in those places. Absent these things your nation will almost certainly remain a chronic basketcase, producing one generation after another of pitiable, malnourished, and diseased children.

I am loathe to dive into a contentious debate on this sad day. I'm trying to live up to the standards set by our dear departed friend. I also don't want to not be true to myself by not sharing something that describes an alternative point of view and approach, even knowing that it will almost certainly generate the very thing I want to avoid. So here it is, and I will just ask that you be gentle in your responses, as I will try to be in mine (I've run the above through my "Colly civility check" program, but my organic computer does not have the power to operate it with full efficiency): http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/spiegel/0,1518,363663,00.html

 

[neonlyte]

You certainly need short term relief of the types mentioned here, but to actually have a life worth living you also need a nation that enjoys the rule of law instead of kleptocracy, an economic system that rewards instead of punishes enterprise, and an opportunity to create wealth by selling goods to the wealthy nations without having to overcome indefensible tariff barriers erected at the behest of special interest union or agricultural lobbies in those places. Absent these things your nation will almost certainly remain a chronic basketcase, producing one generation after another of pitiable, malnourished, and diseased children.

I am loathe to dive into a contentious debate on this sad day. I'm trying to live up to the standards set by our dear departed friend. I also don't want to not be true to myself by not sharing something that describes an alternative point of view and approach, even knowing that it will almost certainly generate the very thing I want to avoid. So here it is, and I will just ask that you be gentle in your responses, as I will try to be in mine (I've run the above through my "Colly civility check" program, but my organic computer does not have the power to operate it with full efficiency): http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/spiegel/0,1518,363663,00.html

I agree (with your state of mind) Let's agree to save this till the 'morrow. There is more I wish to say.

 

[Roxanne Appleby]

I agree (with your state of mind) Let's agree to save this till the 'morrow. There is more I wish to say.

back to you, and to all involved. Good idea. Her spirit is alive, making us better people.

 

[john-the-author]

I'm keen on improving the plight of women in repressive cultures, but I think that the answer to the thread's question, "Is the status of women in Islam today's greatest moral challenge?" is "No, that's not inclusive enough."

I've been reading an exceptional book entitled "The End of Faith" by Samuel Harris. It describes the moral grounds for an end to religion--all of it--and the value in putting an end to the 14th century at last. The author is a very good writer and makes his points lightly and with a considerable amount of humor. Think of it as a philosophy textbook that's a pleasure to read.

 

[Roxanne Appleby]

I'm keen on improving the plight of women in repressive cultures, but I think that the answer to the thread's question, "Is the status of women in Islam today's greatest moral challenge?" is "No, that's not inclusive enough."

I've been reading an exceptional book entitled "The End of Faith" by Samuel Harris. It describes the moral grounds for an end to religion--all of it--and the value in putting an end to the 14th century at last. The author is a very good writer and makes his points lightly and with a considerable amount of humor. Think of it as a philosophy textbook that's a pleasure to read.

Good point. I saw Harris on c-span and he is terrific.

 

[john-the-author]

Good point. I saw Harris on c-span and he is terrific.

Oh! What was he talking about? Well, obviously, the focus of his book, but what venue was he speaking in? It's delightfully progressive for C-Span.

I'm fairly sure that I heard him some months ago on NPR, but hadn't caught the name of the book. It had sounded terrific, though, and I'm very pleased my wife spotted this when she was looking for something to read on the plane home a couple weeks ago.

 

[Roxanne Appleby]

Time to bump this thread, which was postponed by news of a tragic event.

In the Jihad thread I've been saying that it doesn't matter what I or any other "infidel" thinks jihad really means, or what we think anything else in the Koran means. Muslims couldn't care less what we think it means. What matters is what Muslims think it means, at least to the extent that they use it to justify actions that I think are bad, like murder and making women second class citizens. Most Muslims probably don't care that I and many others think that those are bad things, either. But some might.

In my last post on that thread I said that in particular, some women might care what I think and others say about this. I have an image of a 14 year old girl somewhere in Saudi Arabia who has stolen onto an internet and is reading this right now. She has no choice about the fact that she been promised to a 60 year old rich man to become his fourth wife. I say to her, and to everyone else in who hears my voice: It is wrong to oppress women and make them second-class citizens. It is immoral to defend and sustain this injustice in Islamic societies. The people in those societies should stop it.

That 14 year old girl knows that my interpretation of the Koran is and irrelevent and always will be so. She may hope that what I and others think about the things done in the name of the Koran is relevent, or someday becomes so.

 

[R. Richard]

Time to bump this thread, which was postponed by news of a tragic event.

In the Jihad thread I've been saying that it doesn't matter what I or any other "infidel" thinks jihad really means, or what we think anything else in the Koran means. Muslims couldn't care less what we think it means. What matters is what Muslims think it means, at least to the extent that they use it to justify actions that I think are bad, like murder and making women second class citizens. Most Muslims probably don't care that I and many others think that those are bad things, either. But some might.

In my last post on that thread I said that in particular, some women might care what I think and others say about this. I have an image of a 14 year old girl somewhere in Saudi Arabia who has stolen onto an internet and is reading this right now. She has no choice about the fact that she been promised to a 60 year old rich man to become his fourth wife. I say to her, and to everyone else in who hears my voice: It is wrong to oppress women and make them second-class citizens. It is immoral to defend and sustain this injustice in Islamic societies. The people in those societies should stop it.

That 14 year old girl knows that my interpretation of the Koran is and irrelevent and always will be so. She may hope that what I and others think about the things done in the name of the Koran is relevent, or someday becomes so.

It is not the Koran that is at the root of the problem. The Koran urges decent treatment of women. The problem is the attitudes of many Muslims, particularly fundamentalists. In Austalia, Sheik Taj Aldin al-Hilali compares immodestly-dressed women to "uncovered meat" and says that they are inviting sexual attack. He also states that the reason men steal is that their wives are greedy.

Many Muslim males think like Sheik Taj Aldin al-Hilal. The result is that Muslim women are often little more than uneducated slaves.

 

[Pure]

On the grave injustices in others' societies.

RA Whose, then?

Were you an Englishman in the 1850s would you say, "Chattel slavery in the Southern states of the U.S. is not my moral burden to carry."

P: if the slavery analogy is apt: yes there was a world wide movement. but what an Englishman said in 1850, or even thousands of them, probably did not lead to the end of slavery one year sooner. (indeed, didn't England support the South?) nor have i heard of it being instrumental in supporting Black slaves morale.

it's the John Brown's, the Sojourner Truth's; the abolitionists of the north, and the resisters in the south who made the difference.

as to this image:

RA I have an image of a 14 year old girl somewhere in Saudi Arabia who has stolen onto an internet and is reading this right now. She has no choice about the fact that she been promised to a 60 year old rich man to become his fourth wife. I say to her, and to everyone else in who hears my voice: It is wrong to oppress women and make them second-class citizens. It is immoral to defend and sustain this injustice in Islamic societies. The people in those societies should stop it.

P: well, i'd say she might react as Roxanne does, when European social democrats say, "You Americans. What a ridiculous and unjust health care system; Why don't you have government-run insurance?"

however the US supports at least two oppressive regimes, Saudi Arabia and Pakistan. is Roxanne proposing to write to her congressman asking that he propose a bill for the boycott of Saudi Arabia? does Roxanne disagree with US policy toward Saudi A. or Pakistan?

this 'here i stand' sound a bit like a posture. it costs nothing. if people are really concerned, send some money to the safehouses for women that now exist in Jordan, to prevent 'honor killings.' Roxanne, what are you willing to pledge?

 

[Roxanne Appleby]

this 'here i stand' sound a bit like a posture. it costs nothing. if people are really concerned, send some money to the safehouses for women that now exist in Jordan, to prevent 'honor killings.' Roxanne, what are you willing to pledge?

$20.
~~~~

 

[Pixelsized]

I don't believe that all Muslim Women are second class citizens. Yes, there are many however "all" is too generalized. I believe it depends on the location,and the government under which they live more than the religion itself.

I go to school with several Muslim women. I wouldn't call those women second class citizens. They clearly have rights and are willing to exercise them.

 

[Roxanne Appleby]

I don't believe that all Muslim Women are second class citizens. Yes, there are many however "all" is too generalized. I believe it depends on the location,and the government under which they live more than the religion itself.

I go to school with several Muslim women. I wouldn't call those women second class citizens. They clearly have rights and are willing to exercise them.

In most Islamic societies and nations women are decidedly second class citizens and are subjected to great injustice. Here is an example: "Hudood" is a set of Quranic laws that legalize the prosecution of a woman for fornication if she cannot prove a crime was committed. National versions differ. In Pakistan, for example, four Muslim men must have witnessed the event, and testify for the victim. If the woman can't produce those witnesses, she can be prosecuted for alleging a false crime. Penalties include stoning to death, lashing or prison. In contrast to Indonesia and Malaysia, which have Hudood laws but essentially ignore them, Pakistan's laws have been enforced. Stoning and lashing are rare, but more than 2,000 Pakistani women now languish in jail, at last count, for Hudood violations.

 

[damppanties]

(this is being carried over from the Jihad thread)

I have bumped the "Status of women in Islam today's great moral challenge?" thread which wrestles with these very questions.

You condemn me for "coming across as morally superior" when I say that it is wrong to oppress women. Are you saying that this view is morally equivalent to one asserting that it is not wrong to oppress women?

You say that the 14 year old girl who reads my words is not helped by my words. I have no power to change that girl's awful situation, but if she thinks what has been done to her is unjust I can at least tell her she is right, and reassure her that she is not alone in thinking this. I have no ability to "fight for the people in Islamic societies" insofar as I believe that half of them are subjected to injustice, except for one thing: I can bear witness that it is wrong to oppress women, and those societies should stop doing it.

Do you really think that doing so is meaningless? You may be right in this instance, but you are not necessarily right. Sometimes it makes a great difference for people to say that a thing is wrong. Mostly it makes a difference when many people do so, but it starts with one, or a few. That is how slavery was abolished in Britain, and how legal discrimination on the basis of race was ended in the U.S. There were many then who said to the abolitionists or the freedom riders, "What makes you the pronouncer of judgements, and why does it matter to people what you think?"

Thanks for bumping this thread. I haven't read all of it yet, I'll just reply to this first.

What I mean by coming across as morally superior is that I feel you're doing this to feel good about yourself, and not because you're trying to help someone. Roxanne, I fail to understand how your saying that oppression of women is wrong is going to help our 14 year old girl in Saudi Arabia. I don't understand how she is reassured by the fact that one Roxanne Appleby of Literotica stands by her with words on in the internet and shows her solidarity and support through those very words that merely condemn what's happening to her. Everyone can bear witness from the other side of the world, Roxanne, and to feel that you've done something worthwhile by saying what they're doing is wrong, is not enough. It doesn't even begin to make a difference.

I realise that saying that something is wrong is a way to start something, but will you leave it at that and expect someone else will follow up? Do you think the Muslim societies will actually take notice and stop doing what they're doing just because you're saying it's wrong? It's way past the time to just stand up and say, "You're wrong and stop doing it." Use their texts and their religion to tell them it's wrong by their standards. And the only way you do it, is to know what you're fighting. Pronouncing judgements is all fine, but unless you're willing to follow up, it is meaningless, yes.

 

[oggbashan]

So short a time ago...

My aunt was a suffragist. Not a suffragette, but a suffragist who campaigned by legal means for women in the UK to get the right to vote. They won that right in 1928.

Yet it took until the 1970s for it to be illegal to discriminate against a woman just because she was a woman. In theory women became equal in the UK about 30 years ago during the lifetime of my eldest daughter.

In Switzerland some women still do not have the vote.

Yet this thread criticises Islam for not granting women the freedoms that they have only recently won in the West. Not all Muslims would agree that women are second class people who should be protected from others and from themselves. In Western societies Muslim parents frequently encourage and support girls to seek educational qualifications and achieve professional status. Education and qualification may be seen as making a woman more attractive as a marriage partner yet they are also means to helping a woman achieve for her own sake.

Generalisations are dangerous. The generalisation that starts this thread is only fueling discord between Muslims and non-Muslims. There is no such thing as a single status of women in Islam. Why isn't there a similar debate about the status of women in the Roman Catholic Church? Women cannot become priests. Why not? Is St Paul infalliable?

Og

 

[Pure]

$20

fine roxanne, $20. me too. do you know an address in Jordan or on the 'net, or do I need to find one?

 

[oggbashan]

fine roxanne, $20. me too. do you know an address in Jordan or on the 'net, or do I need to find one?

Why search for one in Jordan?

There will be a women's refuge in your nearest large town, overpopulated with women fleeing the oppression and violence of men. The violence may not be called 'honor killings' but the deaths still happen. Whether there are more or less deaths than 'honor killings'? I don't know. Deaths by domestic violence are high.

It isn't a US phenomenon. There is a women's refuge less than 5 miles from me. They try not to turn women away who are fleeing violent partners but the demand is far greater than their ability to provide safe accommodation.

Og