Spivak Pronouns

[Etoile]

I have made a decision and gotten my Daddy's approval on this. In the past I have been careful not to indicate my Daddy's gender. This is by Daddy's own request, and relates to the fact that not everybody fits neatly into the two societally-accepted gender categories of male and female. There are a bunch of alternative pronouns to take the place of 'he' and 'she' but I've never used those. It makes it a lot harder to refer to Daddy - I'm constantly saying 'Daddy this' and 'Daddy that'...no longer. I'm now going to be using Spivak pronouns to refer to Daddy.

The Spivak pronouns were created by mathematician Michael Spivak in his textbooks (which included the utterly fascinating Comprehensive Introduction to Differential Geometry). They are gender-neutral third-person pronouns and are used whenever someone's gender is not known (e.g., "the reader"). People sometimes use them online when they prefer not to reveal what gender they are.

Here are how they are used:
subject: I - you - he - she - e
object: me - you - him - her - em
possessive: my/mine - your/yours/ - his - hers - eir/eirs
reflexive: myself - yourself - himself - herself - emself
...and so on.

So from now on, this is how I'll be referring to my Daddy. Just so you're aware.

 

[Chicklet]

I dunno, Etoile...that makes a little too much sense for me.

 

[P. B. Walker]

I have a feeling many people will just be thinking you misspelled a word.

 

[WriterDom]

uck my ock

 

[AnelizeDarkEyes]

Girl, PLEASE.

*eyeroll*

~anelize

 

[navarre]

HUH?

 

[His_sugar]

I suppose it would be too much to expect the "community" as a whole to respect her wishes and show encouragement for something Etoile has obviously put alot of thought into.

She isn't asking everyone here to speak in that way, she is simply explaining her reasons for doing so.

Good luck to you Etoile.

 

[James G 5]

Geez, I thought for a minute I was gonna hear Dan Akroyd pitching a new product......



(2 points for the first person who gets THAT joke)

 

[Etoile]

I suppose it would be too much to expect the "community" as a whole to respect her wishes and show encouragement for something Etoile has obviously put alot of thought into.

She isn't asking everyone here to speak in that way, she is simply explaining her reasons for doing so.

Good luck to you Etoile.

Thank you. You're exactly right that I don't expect others to behave the same way. I just needed a place to explain the pronouns I will be using. (But yeah, P.B., I expect you're right that people will think I've spelled something wrong!) I'm sorry some people felt the need to deride my decision...it does make me feel kind of hurt to hear those things. (I'm kind of emotionally rocky lately anyway, in part due to harsh words from friends, so I'm assuming the impulse to cry is just me overreacting...sigh.) I guess I'll press on with it anyway and see how it goes.

 

[PinkOrchid]

 

[redelicious]

Maybe put a note in your sig line so people don't think you've completely fallen off your rocker. Or maybe you can attribute it to Ebony's keyboard (king/++++) virus

She did.

The thing is, I will have to refer back to this thread to remember what stands for what pronoun.

But that is really my problem, now isn't it?

 

[Etoile]

She did.

The thing is, I will have to refer back to this thread to remember what stands for what pronoun.

But that is really my problem, now isn't it?

Yup, I added a note in my sig as soon as I had the URL for this thread. I guess I could make the text bigger?

And actually, the pronouns are pretty self-intuitive. They're easy to get used to once you've seen them a couple of times.

Personally, I'm breathing a sigh of relief that I can talk about Daddy without stilting my English!

 

[James G 5]

Yup, I added a note in my sig as soon as I had the URL for this thread. I guess I could make the text bigger?

And actually, the pronouns are pretty self-intuitive. They're easy to get used to once you've seen them a couple of times.

Personally, I'm breathing a sigh of relief that I can talk about Daddy without stilting my English!

Don't you mean "talk about em"?
And I wasn't mocking you or the thread, just the word "Spivak"

(And I notice no one has gotten the joke yet LOL)

 

[Johnny Mayberry]

Jkl; asfdik [opifn[ idhnf74irf u99387h islkeu kjbcy ladskcy kjbcusls pq9rejnstrq-wjd kshjbuytvbl. Gskdfijyb ,ljabdo!!! jdkjiacjl jsdj hg oljkhdigw laodsjendt ns hsh hsghdsu hd yu s sk s s s lkjhcdy...

 

[niteshade]

I respect your decision, but I think it is going to be a bit confusing.

 

[Arden]

I enjoy your posts, and will continue to do so no matter how you refer to your Daddy, Etoile.

Best wishes!

 

[navarre]

Don't you mean "talk about em"?
And I wasn't mocking you or the thread, just the word "Spivak"

(And I notice no one has gotten the joke yet LOL)

I got it even before you posted James.

 

[James G 5]

I got it even before you posted James.

Must be an age thing LOL

 

[Desdemona]

Don't you mean "talk about em"?
And I wasn't mocking you or the thread, just the word "Spivak"

(And I notice no one has gotten the joke yet LOL)

I got it. Even had a visual in my head. LOL


Etoile, whatever makes it easier for you works for me. I'm sure we'll all figure it out and won't even notice it after a little while.

 

[WriterDom]

I like your "Daddy this and that." But whatever makes you happy.

 

[Chicklet]

I don't think it'll be a problem, I never did...I think it makes sense, and I'm sorry if you took my playful post wrong.

 

[FungiUg]

Good for e Etoile.

If e are ever in the mood to read an interesting (but terrible) Science Fiction novel that explores gender in language, take a look at Stars In My Pocket Like Grains Of Sand, by Samuel R Delaney (an author who e have to say wrote best before e decided to make every novel a stament to the effect of "E am gay".)

The particularly interesting thing about this book (which e only need to read a couple of pages to discover, then burn, stamp on, shred or dispose of thoughtfully of the remainder of this very long and boring novel in which, er, nothing happens) is that everyone is a her, irrespective of gender. If e become sexually attracted to someone, then that person become a him.

It does make the point very well of how reliant we are of gender in language. When really, gender should be irrelevent except in terms of sexuality. Of course, a boring book with a message is still a boring book.

 

[Johnny Mayberry]

Aejsyrbrt.

 

[Etoile]

Good for e Etoile.

If e are ever in the mood to read an interesting (but terrible) Science Fiction novel that explores gender in language, take a look at Stars In My Pocket Like Grains Of Sand, by Samuel R Delaney (an author who e have to say wrote best before e decided to make every novel a stament to the effect of "E am gay".)

The particularly interesting thing about this book (which e only need to read a couple of pages to discover, then burn, stamp on, shred or dispose of thoughtfully of the remainder of this very long and boring novel in which, er, nothing happens) is that everyone is a her, irrespective of gender. If e become sexually attracted to someone, then that person become a him.

It does make the point very well of how reliant we are of gender in language. When really, gender should be irrelevent except in terms of sexuality. Of course, a boring book with a message is still a boring book.

I can't tell if you're misunderstanding the use of spivak pronouns, or if you're deliberately messing with me. Anyway, I might look and see if I have that book already - I know we've got Dhalgren in the house, and I liked that, so...we'll see. Jeanette Winterson's Written on the Body is a novel, and the narrator's gender is never revealed. Eir partner is female, but we don't ever find out what the narrator might be.

 

[catalina_francisco]

Please excuse me if I am wrong, but I seem to recall you telling us in more than one post that 'Daddy' was female, so why the need now to make them seem genderless in an effort to disguise something we all knew already?

C