Spiritual Neglect

[Selena_Kitt]

I've been thinking about this, esp in light of the "spanking" discussion on Joe's thread... interested in hearing other's thoughts...

I was what you would call "abused" as a kid. My older sisters got worse than I did (I was my father's only biological child and they were stepkids so I think I had some sort of force field protection around me in that way--although I got my share anyway). They were actually sexually abused, and one of them was taken away by the foster care system for six months after a beating so hard she couldn't sit down in school.

My father was/is bipolar and you never knew which mood swing he'd be on.

So I know what it's like to be beaten, had my arm broken, and after that incident with my sister, he got much more creative (and sadistic) in his punishments.

Still, given that... my body healed, and my psyche, to some degree, forgot a lot and forgave the rest. Humans are human, everyone is fallible, and considering my father's upbringing (he was beaten with farm implements by his own father) I understand, if not condone, what he did.

The part that I find, as an adult, the hardest to come to terms with is my spiritual neglect as a child. Is there such a thing? Well... my parents were very lacking in belief, certainly. Nothing was ever taught to me about any sort of connection to something greater, and as an adult, the hardest thing for me is to have faith.

Maybe I'm just mad at "god" or "the divine"... I don't know.

But some part of me believes that the body heals and even the psyche heals... but if you don't get that teaching of faith as a child, it leaves such a huge hole, and it's incredibly hard to fill as an adult. I don't know why that is, but it has been my experience... it's the hardest thing I've ever done.

Thoughts?

 

[kimbernee]

I'm very sorry for your past pain. Have you tried looking at something like Buddhism that you can relate to on a more intellectual level? I've never had any faith (just not that sort of person) but I find Buddhism very soothing and helpful.

 

[MagicaPractica]

I've often thought that kids that don't have something to believe in and kinda of turn to when parents are out of control have it harder. The abuse in my family was mostly mental but I realized that my connection to a higher power really helped me survive it reasonably well. There are a lot of things you can choose to believe in. Some people put their faith in science, though I find that a little too cold for me personally. Have fun exploring the possibilities.

 

[xssve]

"Spirituality" is often expressed in terms of Paternalism or parent figures, whom we're supposed to revere, the failure of parental protection is extended to the symbolic über parent, god.

So much for the why, how you resolve it, I'm not entirely sure, all I can suggest is to try to find ways of channeling your entirely justifiable feelings of anger and betrayal into positive directions.

Thing about spirituality is, the whole über parent thing is a fairly shallow well to begin with, hating god doesn't make you any less spiritual, you're in good company, so I wouldn't worry about that, hate away if it helps.

Meanwhile, your "outsider" status can be the route to great insight that can benefit yourself and your fellow human beings, many of whom also have issues.

There's probobly no way to ever get back the care and attention you deserve, but it's worth trying - in the end, spirituality is nothing but the capacity to love and expect nothing in return.

Not to be mistaken with selling yourself short mind you, we just don't always get what we deserve, and wallowing in anger doesn't hurt anybody but you - inescapable at times, but climb out whenever you have the opportunity, if that makes any sense.

 

[Recidiva]

My family was essentially spiritually null. They didn't neglect me. They just didn't have the tools or the senses for it at all.

I consider it a separate sense entirely. It's as if I were longing for an explanation of color and light among the blind. And I was equally blind to many things that were of importance to them, so it was mutual.

Forgiveness of the tragic mis-matching of interests, senses and experiences, brought me to peace on the subject.

 

[BlackShanglan]

Interesting points, Selena. I think that's always been my chief qualm with the "I won't teach my children a religion; I'll let them decide when they grow up" point of view. If the whole concept is never introduced to you, it's harder to grasp later - a bit like manners, really. *laugh* Kids are physical creatures like the rest of us. If the Sunday morning options are "get up and go to church" or "lay on the couch and eat donuts," I'm not sure that what results is a really thought-intensive choice.

I heard one idea I rather like from a priest. He was talking about the issue of parents of different faiths raising children they'd had together. His comment was, "You can become a better Catholic by being raised Jewish than being raised nothing," and I think that he had a point. There are many paths that spirituality can take, but it's harder to set foot on any of them if you've never entered the general neighborhood.

 

[neonlyte]

Good to see you posting again, that does wonders for my spirit

For many years, I thought I had a 'normal childhood', the only traumatic event was my parents divorcing in my late teens. I did once go travelling in Europe and arrived home to find they'd moved house - haven't really seen any of my family since then. Recently, as a result of being exposed to asbestos whilst working for my father, I've had the painful business of filing a legal claim against him... it is to do with the UK legal system, once you are diagnosed with an asbestos disease, even if it is benign as in my case, you have three years to commence legal proceedings to reserve your legal claim in case the illness becomes more serious. That episode has brought so many skeletons out of the cupboard. The people I thought I knew didn't exist. My wife has often encouraged me to re-visit my parents, what ever instinct thirty odd years ago told me to turn my back on them was right. No regrets.

 

[galaxygoddess]

Growing up, I had an aunt and uncle that were horribly abusive to their children. I distinctly remember one incident of my uncle chasing my cousin with a baseball bat because she didn't wipe her shoes before she went in the house. It was bizzare in that my uncle was actually spoiled and never got punished for anything, my mom and the other siblings did, but the "baby" of the family never got so much as a spanking.

In a "spiritual" essence, my family, my mom and I in particular have had VERY bad dealing with churches in general. Both me and my mom on separate occassions and at very separate churches, have been attacked in church parking lots by church members (mom was beaten almost unconscious by her then husband, my biodad, I was attacked by 3 different people in my teenage years) and each time, the church people themselves told us to "forgive and forget" because "the bible says so". EXCUSE ME?????

So all my life, we basically aboided church. The only reason I even went was because my brother had been invited by a friend and he bugged me to go. Mom wanted me to make friends so she encouraged me to go. Yeah, fat lot of good that did.


In any event, because of the BS we have experience at church, we avoided the place(s). I was taught to believe what I want to believe and taught "morals". Yes some of those morals came from the bible, but more over we are encouraged to make our own desicion about it. Don't just believe what is popular, follow your own system. Even if it's (as my ex-husband put it) crazy.

I believe your "cynicism" is from the fact that, as a child, your mind is young and impresionable, and you'll believe just about what anyone will tell you, even if it doesn't make sense at the time. (took my sister forever to stop believing you gave birth via a zipper on your back ) As an adult, you've now been told the difference between fantasy and make believe and your mind precieves some of the weird junk in the bible as "make believe". As a kid, I questioned a lot of the bible, and i was told "that's just the way it is, you'll go to hell if you believe different" but even then I though "you people are full of crock".

So it's up to you to believe what you want.

I believe there is a higher power, I believe in fate, one of those sure as hell saved my life for a higher purpose. The bullfrog told me so

 

[impressive]

Interesting points, Selena. I think that's always been my chief qualm with the "I won't teach my children a religion; I'll let them decide when they grow up" point of view. If the whole concept is never introduced to you, it's harder to grasp later - a bit like manners, really. *laugh*

I'm in that camp. Firmly.

I disagree that spirituality (unlike, for example, a foreign language) is difficult to pick up later in life. In fact, I strongly believe the opposite. Thus, I refuse to indoctrinate my kids.

There is a point in a child's development when s/he shifts from an egocentric focus to a broader, yet more introspective view. THAT is the point, IMNSHO, when spirituality is discovered.

But, I'm also a strong advocate for child-led weaning.

 

[Jenny_Jackson]

I can remember as a wee child sitting in the middle of the living room floor while my father wandered back and forth talking to himself, completely oblivious of me or my sister (my older, the younger wasn't born yet).

My mother never paid much attention either. That meant my sister and I grew up by ourselves. The two of us were always very close up until she died a few years ago.

My younger sister was never really part of the group. She was quite a bit younger and less individualist than A and I. In those days, kids went from the last day of school to the berry fields. A and I always did. Then came beans and apples and peaches and so on. That was how we earned money for clothes, books etc. Mary, the youngest, never had to do any of that. She was the "Princess" and was freed from most everything.

Were we abused? We were spanked often by our mother when she was in a rage over something. Sometimes just because she felt like lashing out, I think. Our father was never interested enough to punish us. He was a terrible work-o-holic and we didn't really even know him. So, were we abused? We certainly deserved punishment on not-so-rare occasions, but we never deserved to be ignored. No child deserves that.

Was there sexual anything involved? No. That never entered anyone's mind.

I suppose this kind of childhood has determined the person I am. I never felt abused, just left out.

 

[Recidiva]

Interesting points, Selena. I think that's always been my chief qualm with the "I won't teach my children a religion; I'll let them decide when they grow up" point of view. If the whole concept is never introduced to you, it's harder to grasp later - a bit like manners, really. *laugh* Kids are physical creatures like the rest of us. If the Sunday morning options are "get up and go to church" or "lay on the couch and eat donuts," I'm not sure that what results is a really thought-intensive choice.

I heard one idea I rather like from a priest. He was talking about the issue of parents of different faiths raising children they'd had together. His comment was, "You can become a better Catholic by being raised Jewish than being raised nothing," and I think that he had a point. There are many paths that spirituality can take, but it's harder to set foot on any of them if you've never entered the general neighborhood.

I've tried to expose my children to the beneficial sides of having a personally-tailored spirituality. Patience, faith, beauty, joy, connection.

I've tried through that exposure to point out the negative sides of blindly adhering to any religion. Intolerance, righteousness, ugliness for the sake of upholding an invisible standard, hatred, alienation.

I made a point of never telling them Santa Claus was real. But they picked it up from going to school. I would explain to them that it's not sad that Santa Claus isn't real, and that we have to let people believe in Santa if they want to. But to me the real beauty of knowing he wasn't real was in knowing that the people who love you, are Santa. And you get to have a chance to be Santa too.

 

[Selena_Kitt]

I'm in that camp. Firmly.

I disagree that spirituality (unlike, for example, a foreign language) is difficult to pick up later in life. In fact, I strongly believe the opposite. Thus, I refuse to indoctrinate my kids.

There is a point in a child's development when s/he shifts from an egocentric focus to a broader, yet more introspective view. THAT is the point, IMNSHO, when spirituality is discovered.

But, I'm also a strong advocate for child-led weaning.

That's the tactic my parents took... I remember once when I was around eight, they asked if I wanted to be "baptized." (My sisters, much older, were going through their "we're christians now" thing). I asked what "baptized" meant. I was told that basically, a preacher put water over my head. That sounded weird to me, so I said, "No thanks!" That was about the extent of it.

I can tell you, anecdotally, it's hard for me to pick up spirituality later in life. Maybe that has something to do with my upbringing, as xssve pointed out.

Or, perhaps, the grass is always greener, and I just envy those who seem to have always had it, who were taught it as kids and accepted it without all the painful questioning. (or maybe that questioning happens anyway, as galaxygoddess pointed out, and I just didn't see it happening?)

 

[Stella_Omega]

I raised both my kids as atheists, as I was raised-- not merely "let them find a god" but atheist, positively.

There is no dearth of faith, in my life or theirs.

I can see very well that it's much easier to find comfort in having the same faith-hanger as everyone around you-- We All Believe Together is a profoundly moving sensation, one that atheists rarely experience. But to make the assumption that Faith requires a God to pin it to is quite wrong, in my experience.

 

[THROBBS]

The may end up being more difficult for you, Selena. But should you take that path, I suspect it will be a much more meaningful experience for you.

It is unfortunate that some of the loudest "members" of many religions are the worst examples of them. i know that if I were to base my choice on (most) vocal "christians", I wouldn't be one.

 

[BlackShanglan]

Or, perhaps, the grass is always greener, and I just envy those who seem to have always had it, who were taught it as kids and accepted it without all the painful questioning. (or maybe that questioning happens anyway, as galaxygoddess pointed out, and I just didn't see it happening?)

I think it happens if you're serious about it. Nothing is easier than unquestioning obedience, regardless of what you're obedient to.

Galaxygoddess, I'm so very sorry for your horrible experiences. That would be enough to put a person off of damned near anything.

 

[BlackShanglan]

I disagree that spirituality (unlike, for example, a foreign language) is difficult to pick up later in life. In fact, I strongly believe the opposite. Thus, I refuse to indoctrinate my kids.

I recognize your position and respect your beliefs, but might we agree not to refer to each other's approaches as indoctrination? Children learn and are taught; that's the nature of childhood. Not every attempt to teach something is "indoctrination" in the pejorative sense that it will inevitably have.

 

[English Lady]

I will forever be thankful to my Mum for bringing me up with Faith. I've known Jesus since I was a babe and I believe as easily as I breathe and I am so, so,so thankful for that.

Beth goes to church with me and goes to the church school and she shows an interest in it (She asked me to read about Jesus last week totally out of the blue and by her own volation) but if she didn't want to go to church, I wouldn't make her. My mum never made me go -it was my choice.

I'm thankful for the way I was brought up, but I think God'll find you when the itme is right wether you're brought up to believe or not

 

[cantdog]

Very dense thread, thick with ideas. I'm at work now, but I'll be back on later. Thanks for participating, everyone.

 

[Selena_Kitt]

Very dense thread, thick with ideas. I'm at work now, but I'll be back on later. Thanks for participating, everyone.

<---suddenly totally distracted from this discussion of spirit by cantdog's AV...

Only on Lit!

 

[impressive]

I recognize your position and respect your beliefs, but might we agree not to refer to each other's approaches as indoctrination? Children learn and are taught; that's the nature of childhood. Not every attempt to teach something is "indoctrination" in the pejorative sense that it will inevitably have.

Apologies. 'Tis my own upbringing sullying my perspective.

 

[xssve]

Organized religion has nothing to do with spirituality, it's a social organization - there are exceptions, but most of organized religion consistes of rooting out and destroying spirituality wherever they find it.

Spirituality lies in seeking the answer to questions no one will ever have the answers to, it's a journey, not a destination, it damn sure isn't pretending to know what you don't, what you cannot - that's called politics.

The very ambiguity of it makes it inimical to organization, organization is a socialization/enculturation tool that reflects... cultural organization - don't get daddy mad at you...

Sorry, off topic maybe, but the town is crawling with Christian facisti - it seems the high school chartered a chapter of the Gay-Straight Alliance and there is much wailing and gnashing of teeth, as clearly the very essence of godliness lies in how, when where and with who you deploy your sexual organs and why.

So, as far as I can tell, we aren't even talking about people anymore, all humanity is reduced to ambulatory sex organs - penises on the left, wombs on the right, and await further instructions.

Seems awfully materialistic to me - isn't that the exact definitive polar opposite of spirituality?

Questions, questions...

 

[galaxygoddess]

Something I've said for awhile now is "even when false, hope is still hope."

A long time ago, I had a friend name Mike who was dying of cancer. One day, I told him "be a bird, and come visit me" he laughed and said "How about a dove?" And I said "ok, that works"

One day, he died, a little before expected, but it was inevitable. Within the month, a dove landed on my parents car. It sat there on the hood of their car for the longest time. Mike loved cars, it was his thing. I walked outside, the dove still sat there. I got almost to the hood of the car before it finally flew away. I sat and cried. Mike had come to see me. Everyday for the next 3 months I saw that dove, sitting on the hood of the car. It never landed on the van, only the car. Every time I saw it I'd say "Hey Mike. "

I told every one about this dove that came to visit me. One day I told this woman who said "that's the stupid thing I ever heard. People can't become animals that's against the bible. you're just stupid." I blinked at this woman, and mom tore into her telling her how dare she say that to me. And the woman replied "that's just stupid false hope, it goes against the bible. It's wrong and she's wrong, you're a bad parent." Mom almost punched the woman. Finally I said: "you know what? Screw you and you're pathetic beliefs. Hope, even when false, is still hope. Mike was my friend and it was something we had said to each other, and if you still don't believe it, may GOD have mercy on your soul." And I walked away with mom behind me laughing.


People can be mean and cruel about someone else's beliefs, if they don't match their own, and that's part of why people are so cynical about believing in anything these days. Zealots, they all need their heads checked.

 

[BlackShanglan]

Apologies. 'Tis my own upbringing sullying my perspective.

*nuzzles*

If it's any comfort, you and I simply differ, and I do understand your feelings. For people who spend their time teaching others that religion is about being an ass and making yourself feel superior, on the other hand, I have only dislike and contempt.

 

[BlackShanglan]

Organized religion has nothing to do with spirituality, it's a social organization - there are exceptions, but most of organized religion consistes of rooting out and destroying spirituality wherever they find it.

And you know this because you're familiar with most of the people involved in most of the religions in the world? Or might this just be your personal experiens mapped onto the rest of the world in a serious of unpleasant and ill-willed assumptions?

 

[Selena_Kitt]

Everyday for the next 3 months I saw that dove, sitting on the hood of the car. It never landed on the van, only the car. Every time I saw it I'd say "Hey Mike."

I love that story. I'd love that story even if it weren't true...

"Hope is a thing with feathers..."

indeed.

Thanks, GG...