Spelling variances

[sr71plt]

Are you saying there should be different spelling of the same word in narration and dialogue if the narrator and characters are from different English-speaking countries?

No. I posted that there should be a uniform spelling--set to the narrator--it's the terminology that should reflect the speaker's origin.

(And on that American-based Web site Lit. I'd suggest leaning to going with the American spelling style, if you don't want comments like the one that set the OP off.)

 

[glynndah]

Are you saying there should be different spelling of the same word in narration and dialogue if the narrator and characters are from different English-speaking countries?

I would have no trouble with an American character referring to it as an elevator and her British friend taking the lift.

Having the narrator switch from British to American or the reverse, though, probably would bother me.

 

[Handley_Page]

I have seen a number of stories which are headed by a note to the effect that "this is in England, so it is English spelling" or words of like kind.

 

[Loring2]

Excellent SR

It isn't really the locale of the story that determines terminology that should be used for the narration of a story--it's the origin of the narrator. The locale comes in play in the dialogue of the local (or nonlocal) characters.

On spellings, If you have variations of spellings of words like rumor/rumour, realize/realise that are pronounced the same, for the sake of the reader, you need to pick one system (even in dialogue by characters from a different country) and stick with it. (And this being an American-based Web site, if you're posting to Lit., you'd be safer going with American style if you're too thin skinned just to ignore ignorant comments on misspelling. What Drip posted is true--British books are rewritten for American style before being published in the States, so American readers have little experience of British style.)

I write stories and e-books with a coauthor--I'm American; he's Australian. We've found we have to stick with one system in rendering of something like labor/labour (which are pronounced the same)--even in dialogue. But if we are going back and forth in chapters between an American and an Australian narrator/character (which is a style we often use) what we have to look for and stay in character with are such things as apartment/flat, trunk/boot, and truck/lorry--and, yes, ass/arse.

Since I've worked at translating British into American in publishing, I usually do the pass on our writing that looks for and rectifies these differences.

For those (yes, usually American--but sometimes belligerently British) who criticize on spellings without taking into account the origin of the narrator, you just need to grit your teeth and endure it. I've found you can politely point out to an American complainer that there are different spelling systems. I've found, though, that you are wasting your breath to point this out to a British complainer (although there are far fewer of these).

Where I have to roll my eyes is mainly with reviewers who comment on editorial mistakes that aren't editorial mistakes in the publishing industry--where it's the reviewer who never got beyond high school English in his/her understandings. Also the ones who are so anal retentive they won't look through one or two minor mistakes to the content of the story--the ones who comment, "There is a missing comma in paragraph 84, so I stopped reading there and gave you a 1."

This is an excellent point of view SR and it holds even more so in screen plays and movies than in the print media.

It's more an indication of the education level of the speaker than the local idiom. A case in point being that it's very unlikely for a criminal and his attorney to speak in the same idiom if the city is larger than, say 100,000.

This subject is replete with a million variations and as many self appointed experts who will in fact stop reading if they find a misplaced comma; or heaven forbid, semicolon.

 

[R. Richard]

I don't have a lot of problemn with the British/American spelling thing. However, I suspect that anyone who thinks that they SPEAK English in India try dealing with a 'help center' based in India. I did and I was about to give up when I spoke with Adiya. I understood what she said and vice versa. I told her of my earlier frustration and delight in her use of English. Adiya then told me, "Perhaps it's because I grew up in Los Angeles, attended schools through UCLA and only then returned to India."
I replied, "Well, of course. I went to UCLA myself."
Adiya seemed to think that there were perhaps other reasons.

 

[wishfulthinking]

I don't have a lot of problemn with the British/American spelling thing. However, I suspect that anyone who thinks that they SPEAK English in India try dealing with a 'help center' based in India. I did and I was about to give up when I spoke with Adiya. I understood what she said and vice versa. I told her of my earlier frustration and delight in her use of English. Adiya then told me, "Perhaps it's because I grew up in Los Angeles, attended schools through UCLA and only then returned to India."
I replied, "Well, of course. I went to UCLA myself."
Adiya seemed to think that there were perhaps other reasons.

Don't get me started about overseas call centres (but in saying so, I'm shitty at the Aussie companies that contract services overseas, rather than the poor recipients of our wrath on the other end of the phone).

I'm a big girl, and I can take criticisms on the chin no doubt like anyone else in the AH. It was just the first time (over 40 stories on the site) that it came up (arguably, it could be a crap story !). I didn't even begin to think about typical lingo over here.

To clarify -
Coke. Mum. Arse. Sked-yool (schedule). 7-11 (a popular convenience store). Whiskey, Whisky, and Bourbon are all imported and sold here. Petrol Stations. Real Estate Agents. Apartments or flats, interchangeable.

 

[DormantEvil]

If the storyline is English, then dialogue could probably try to stick to the English spelling, maybe just to show the accent off more. But I don't think the writers choice in which type of language to use for the most part makes a difference.

However, details like how if I was to base a story in outback Australia, I would find it rather weird if someone said they found a Tavern...it would just be a pub.

Little things like that can help keep the flow of a story going, but overall, as long as the overall idea gets across to people it shouldn't be a big problem to argue over.

 

[driphoney]

We buy liquor at the ABC store in Alabama, but that's absolutely specific to this state. And, we drink coke, not cola. In fact, I've lived in N. Carolina, Georgia, Tennessee, Mississippi, and Alabama, and NEVER heard it called a "cola." Never. It's a coke, and you'll be asked what kind of coke you want.

Nah. I've seen ABC (Alcohol Beverage Control) stores in other states, and called that, too. I grew up with them in Ohio, but they might be gone now, I don't know.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcoholic_beverage_control_state

I grew up with pop. The word "soda" drives me nuts. You bake with that stuff! I've moved a bit, too, and I've never heard anyone call it "cola" either.

Shall we debate taxi and cab, sack and bag?

 

[bronzeage]

The only time spelling variations "bother" me is when an author, for example, sets a story in small-town America and then populates it with petrol stations, apothecaries, estate agents, etc. The reverse is true, too.

You can't get your rumatiz medicine at the chemist's shop.

 

[driphoney]

Indians in North America impacting American English ... I don't see that happening. Indians / Asians who live and work in US are surrounded by American English speaking people. I got stared at when I said schedule the British way (shed-yool) instead of the American way (sked-ool). People just didn't understand. So no, I don't think the Americans can / will open up to the different spelling or pronunciation.

The phrase "open up" makes it seem like it's a narrow-minded choice, not just dominant culture.

I think there's a watering down and a negative sort of, um ... shaming, almost ... of regional accents. It's socially acceptable to tease or mock someone for their accent. I've run across people (Americans) who admit to attempting to change their accent to sound "less Southern." This makes me sad. It's one thing if it wears off, but another when you feel you must deny a part of who you are to be accepted.

 

[bronzeage]

Nah. I've seen ABC (Alcohol Beverage Control) stores in other states, and called that, too. I grew up with them in Ohio, but they might be gone now, I don't know.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcoholic_beverage_control_state

I grew up with pop. The word "soda" drives me nuts. You bake with that stuff! I've moved a bit, too, and I've never heard anyone call it "cola" either.

Shall we debate taxi and cab, sack and bag?

ABC stores exist in any state which has laws against commercial retail sale of alcohol. The State government is the wholesale distributer and liquor is sold in state owned stores.

In most states, it is a local option. A single county can vote to prohibit all liquor sales, known as the "wet or dry" option. The moonshiners always vote "dry".

 

[driphoney]

ABC stores exist in any state which has laws against commercial retail sale of alcohol. The State government is the wholesale distributer and liquor is sold in state owned stores.

In most states, it is a local option. A single county can vote to prohibit all liquor sales, known as the "wet or dry" option. The moonshiners always vote "dry".

I think most of that was explained in the link I attached.

I live in a sort of dry county. I know the history of it here in Texas, but at this point it's just the dumbest thing. We have completely dry parts of a county, then other parts that are "somewhat dry", then in other counties you might have those two options and also the completely "wet" section where all the liquor stores pile up. It's all changed by ballot initiative at the precinct level.

 

[sr71plt]

Nah. I've seen ABC (Alcohol Beverage Control) stores in other states, and called that, too. I grew up with them in Ohio, but they might be gone now, I don't know.

Hard liquor is still sold only at the state-controlled ABC store in Virginia, but our governor is trying to have them sold to private enterprise. The Baptists are giving him grief on that.

 

[SwiverGuy]

Australian English

I was born in England and have lived in Australia for the last forty years, so my spelling and word-choice tends to be a mix of UK and Australian.

The two stories I've posted so far have been set in Melbourne where I live, so readers hopefully make allowances (and hopefully enjoy) the colloquialisms and speech patterns that creep into my work. An example of this would when one character greets another by saying "G'day" instead of "Hi" or "Hello".

Cheers,
SwiverGuy

 

[Tio_Narratore]

Hard liquor is still sold only at the state-controlled ABC store in Virginia, but our governor is trying to have them sold to private enterprise. The Baptists are giving him grief on that.

ABC in North Carolina as well. In Ontario, it's the LCBO (Liquor Control Board of Ontario) and in Quebec, it's the SAQ (Societe des Alcools du Quebec). Liquor is a government monopoloy in theother Provinces as well.

As for English spelling, both British and American are used and understood, though we do try to keep our distinct terminal letter of the Roman alphabet, "zed."

 

[bronzeage]

I think most of that was explained in the link I attached.

I live in a sort of dry county. I know the history of it here in Texas, but at this point it's just the dumbest thing. We have completely dry parts of a county, then other parts that are "somewhat dry", then in other counties you might have those two options and also the completely "wet" section where all the liquor stores pile up. It's all changed by ballot initiative at the precinct level.

In Louisiana, we have full retail sales in stores and bars. There are restrictions on places where a liquor licence can be obtained. A few years ago one of the large chain grocery stores bought a big corner lot and applied for a liquor license. There was a problem. A church was located about a half block away, and there must be a 500 foot distance between a church and a liquor retailer.

The crisis was settled when the store changed its floor plan and put the liquor department on the far side of the building, which was just beyond the 500 foot line. Technically, it was still a violation, because the license is issued to an address, not the west corner of the address. A large donation to the church helped, as well.

 

[Athalia]

I was born in England and have lived in Australia for the last forty years, so my spelling and word-choice tends to be a mix of UK and Australian.

The two stories I've posted so far have been set in Melbourne where I live, so readers hopefully make allowances (and hopefully enjoy) the colloquialisms and speech patterns that creep into my work. An example of this would when one character greets another by saying "G'day" instead of "Hi" or "Hello".

I'm an American but was educated partially in England, so I'm forever using a weird blend of spellings; the phrases "grey harbors" and "gray harbours" both look right to me at first glance. I must drive my editors crazy. When writing a story set in England and using English characters, I might refer to "Liverpool's grey harbour," whereas a story set in the US might make reference to "Baltimore's gray harbor." But I must take care to be absolutely consistent within the story, in order to reinforce the illusion that the story is indeed happening where it's supposed to happen.

I do agree that local spellings and phrases add richness to the narrative. By using "G'day," you put your character into context immediately. Similarly, when a character uses "y'all" it sets him or her in a certain region of the US, particularly when it's used as a singular term. (Yes, in the South it's singular. The plural is "all y'all.") But mixing these terms, or not paying attention to the vocabulary your character should be using, gets you into deep trouble, and causes many readers to forsake you altogether.

 

[sr71plt]

I really think you need to separate terminology from spelling. Spelling goes with the reader market, not the locale of the story. Terminology is what goes with the narrator's/character's voice.

These aren't the same things. I suppose it doesn't matter on a free Web site like Lit., but it isn't going to help you if you move into the commercial market without realizing that spelling goes with the book market, not the story's locale.

 

[damppanties]

The phrase "open up" makes it seem like it's a narrow-minded choice, not just dominant culture.

I think there's a watering down and a negative sort of, um ... shaming, almost ... of regional accents. It's socially acceptable to tease or mock someone for their accent. I've run across people (Americans) who admit to attempting to change their accent to sound "less Southern." This makes me sad. It's one thing if it wears off, but another when you feel you must deny a part of who you are to be accepted.

When it comes to individuals, it is a choice. A lot of these individuals make up the dominant culture. Unfortunately, I found the majority of Americans to be less tolerant of other cultures, worldviews and spelling/pronunciation...along the lines of your second paragraph quoted here.

 

[oggbashan]

I remember when BBC announcers and presenters always used cut-glass "Received Pronunication". Regional accents were not permitted. Interviews with regional people sometimes could be broadcast with subtitles, particularly for those from Scotland, Northern Ireland and NE England.

I find it difficult to treat recorded television programmes from the early 1950s seriously because no one talks like that now. Nor do news presenters wear tuxedos after 6pm.

During the 1960s regional accents were seen as "gritty" and "down-to-earth". Now, almost any variation in pronunication is acceptable.

Finance companies have worked out that Scottish accents are good for selling their products, even if the accent is fake.

Personally I'm happy to listen to whatever accent is natural to the speaker. When younger I accepted Italian, Chinese and Jewish varieties of Cockney. Why not? But sometimes I'm startled when meeting a second generation immigrant whose normal communication is fluent Scouse or Geordie, even when wearing a hijab.

Og

 

[Tio_Narratore]

In Canada, we sometimes get subtitles for interviews with Newfoundlanders. As well, I've found when road-tripping through the States many radio stations to have DJs and Announcers with the SAE (Standard American English) accent, one very much like New York College English. Occasionally, it's been quite difficult to find a station with an appropriate regional accent. 'Twould be a pity to lose the regionals!

 

[trysail]

I remember when BBC announcers and presenters always used cut-glass "Received Pronunication". Regional accents were not permitted. Interviews with regional people sometimes could be broadcast with subtitles, particularly for those from Scotland, Northern Ireland and NE England.

I find it difficult to treat recorded television programmes from the early 1950s seriously because no one talks like that now. Nor do news presenters wear tuxedos after 6pm.

During the 1960s regional accents were seen as "gritty" and "down-to-earth". Now, almost any variation in pronunication is acceptable.

Finance companies have worked out that Scottish accents are good for selling their products, even if the accent is fake.

Personally I'm happy to listen to whatever accent is natural to the speaker. When younger I accepted Italian, Chinese and Jewish varieties of Cockney. Why not? But sometimes I'm startled when meeting a second generation immigrant whose normal communication is fluent Scouse or Geordie, even when wearing a hijab.

Og

"Within the British Isles, the spread of RP [Received Pronunciation] by the BBC, first on radio, then on television, helped to reinforce what was an already strong connection in many people's minds between education and 'Standard English'- usually perceived as the pronunciation found in the public schools, the universities, the professions, the government, and the church. The influence of this association was, in its day, enormous, even though RP was spoken by only about 3 per cent of the British population, a tiny fraction of the world's English-speaking community. Henry Cecil Wyld, Merton Professor of English Language and Literature at Oxford from 1920 to 1945, and credited with the dictum that, "No gentleman goes on a bus", expressed a common view when he wrote of RP that it was: "The best kind of English, not only because it is spoken by those often properly called the best people, but also because it has two great advantages that make it intrinsically superior to every other type of English speech- the extent to which it is current throughout the country and the marked distinctiveness and clarity of its sounds.' Even in the United States a refined pronunciation of the King's English became desirable: in the Hollywood films of the 1930s stars playing upper-class Americans affected 'posh' accents. (The fascination was not entirely one way. Raymond Chandler, now wholly identified with Los Angeles, liked to stress his English public school education. In 1958, the year before his death, he wrote to John Houseman, a friend from his Hollywood days, 'I have had a lot of fun with the American language; it has fascinating idioms, is constantly creative, very much like the English of Shakespeare's time, its slang and argot are wonderful...') Later, in the 1950s, Wall Street and Madison Avenue executives had English secretaries to add a touch of class to their dealings with the public."​

-Robert McCrum, William Cran, and Robert MacNeil
The Story Of English
New York, 1986

 

[sr71plt]

Now you guys aren't even talking about the print media at all.

 

[oggbashan]

Now you guys aren't even talking about the print media at all.

Threads, like English itself, evolve...

Og

 

[Tio_Narratore]

Threads, like English itself, evolve...

Og

or devolve...

...or just volve.

Tio