Bobtoad777
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Is the exploration and stud of space really worth the daily deaths due to starvation and lack of housing?
Space, does it really matter
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Ambrosious
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Yes, it does. As far as the starving masses go, that's Darwin at work. No, I,m not that hard hearted, but I am doing everything I can, thanks to the Imperial Federal Government of the United States. near as I can figure, I support 3 families a year, not counting my own. If they die due to starvation, maybe I'll get back some of my own money. Ok they don't HAVE to die. I would settle for self suffeniency.
Bobtoad777
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i see, so you would rahter search for something that may or may not be there instead of coming up with a solution to the present problem and possible educate the current homeles to a state of selfsuffiecney
Bobtoad777
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ah so watching supernovas implode and trying to figure out if w.i.m.p.s and m.a.c.h.o.s exist feed, educate, house and encourage our homeless?
by the way nice to meet you Matthew.
by the way nice to meet you Matthew.
The type of research I was thinking about when you posted this, what the research that will be done on the new space station and the space shuttle. Research in to drug manufacturing and other types of useful research. The pure research like black holes, and other particle physics research is hard to justify on the type of level you are suggesting.
Bobtoad777
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i have no problem with us researching and traveling and building as far as the moon
but anymore than that is not justifiable to me either
but anymore than that is not justifiable to me either
MunchinMark
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Er... Pure physics leads to, and is a catalyst for new technologies with many applications in electronics, medicine and hopefully engineering. And if you would rather see a reduction in overcrowding and poverty, I cannot see a reasonable (i.e. not involving large numbers of deaths) solution that does not involve new technologies. There is only so much space to go around.
Mark,
you are correct about that. I had kinda forgotten about all of the different research that began as pure research and turned into more, ie the microwave oven from the study of the different types EM waves given off by stars and other sources.
you are correct about that. I had kinda forgotten about all of the different research that began as pure research and turned into more, ie the microwave oven from the study of the different types EM waves given off by stars and other sources.
G
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There going to spend our money on something anyway!
Bobtoad777
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I still dont see the day that the earth will ever be over crowded or over populated, and we are no wheres near it today. yes some places are but spread it evenly like a pat of butter on toast and we have more than abundant supply of location.
why cant we pure research our own planet, perfect growing techniques, refertilization of dead ground, alternative energies, deep sea exploration.
we currently know more about outer space than about our own planet, how sad is that?
why cant we pure research our own planet, perfect growing techniques, refertilization of dead ground, alternative energies, deep sea exploration.
we currently know more about outer space than about our own planet, how sad is that?
Laurel
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To paraphrase Ray Bradbury, "Our journeys into Space are the most significant journeys mankind has taken since we crawled out of the ocean."
It's untrue to state that if we took all of the space program money and put it toward "world hunger", it would even make a dent. It's not that much money, really. Even if you took all of the money we put into defense, we still wouldn't solve the hunger problem, and I would reckon that both Ambrosious and I support far more servicemen with our taxes than we do the poor (if you don't believe me, it's because you can't read a pie chart). Hunger is a complex issue with many causes.
I disagree with Ambrosious, who seems to believe that a poor child who just happens to be born into dire circumstances "deserves" to die of starvation (while Ambrosious somehow "deserves" to have been lucky enough to be born into opportunity). Though it makes all us lucky people feel better to say that others deserve to die due to their ignorance, the plain fact is that in many parts of the world human beings do not have access to education, jobs, or anything necessary to make their lives better. Us wealthy Americans need to learn to look past our own noses and see the world around us before we make such snap, self-serving judgements.
That said, space exploration and the end of world hunger, while both worthy goals, are completely exclusive. As MunchinMark said, space exploration helps the development of technologies, particularly in the bioengineering field, which can help increase crop yield. Advances in medicine can lead to better, cheaper forms of birth control. And on and on.
But beyond those quantifiable benefits, exploring Space brings us closer to understanding our origins. It brings us closer to the Truth about our universe. That's bigger than anything else on our miserable little planet.
It's untrue to state that if we took all of the space program money and put it toward "world hunger", it would even make a dent. It's not that much money, really. Even if you took all of the money we put into defense, we still wouldn't solve the hunger problem, and I would reckon that both Ambrosious and I support far more servicemen with our taxes than we do the poor (if you don't believe me, it's because you can't read a pie chart). Hunger is a complex issue with many causes.
I disagree with Ambrosious, who seems to believe that a poor child who just happens to be born into dire circumstances "deserves" to die of starvation (while Ambrosious somehow "deserves" to have been lucky enough to be born into opportunity). Though it makes all us lucky people feel better to say that others deserve to die due to their ignorance, the plain fact is that in many parts of the world human beings do not have access to education, jobs, or anything necessary to make their lives better. Us wealthy Americans need to learn to look past our own noses and see the world around us before we make such snap, self-serving judgements.
That said, space exploration and the end of world hunger, while both worthy goals, are completely exclusive. As MunchinMark said, space exploration helps the development of technologies, particularly in the bioengineering field, which can help increase crop yield. Advances in medicine can lead to better, cheaper forms of birth control. And on and on.
But beyond those quantifiable benefits, exploring Space brings us closer to understanding our origins. It brings us closer to the Truth about our universe. That's bigger than anything else on our miserable little planet.
forgetunome
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money for Space projects...
Actually, it does help...the men who built the rockets to go up into space...the money they were paid put food and a roof over their families head.
The people who make the suits for the astronauts to wear...get paid and it provides for their families.
The people who make and sell all of the nuts and bolts and whatever else it takes to put together the launching pad for the spaceships...get paid and provides for their families
Etc. etc. etc. it has provided jobs for many people thereby keeping food on each of their tables.
Actually, it does help...the men who built the rockets to go up into space...the money they were paid put food and a roof over their families head.
The people who make the suits for the astronauts to wear...get paid and it provides for their families.
The people who make and sell all of the nuts and bolts and whatever else it takes to put together the launching pad for the spaceships...get paid and provides for their families
Etc. etc. etc. it has provided jobs for many people thereby keeping food on each of their tables.
Havocman
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Okay folks, I know I've been away for awhile, but I just popped in today to see what's been going on and this thread caught my attention.
To answer your question Bobtoad, YES...the exploration and study of space is worth the daily deaths due to starvation and lack of housing. Now I know all the arguments for and against what we're doing to our own planet, and all the reasons regarding over population and limited resources...those all have their merits and flaws, but I will tell you the one most important reason why we should continue to explore space.
Guaranteeing the survival of the Human species...
Okay that may seem a bit much, but I think it is vital that we eventually begin off planet colonization of at least the Moon and Mars, and continue on from there, instead of "having all of our eggs in one basket" as the saying goes. By getting the species "off-planet" and reproducing, we stand a better chance of continuing our existience...
For any of you that might scoff at this argument, just remember; We're only one Near Earth Asteroid impact, or Mass Coronal Ejection away from going the way of the Dinosaurs...how many T-Rex's have you seen in your neighborhood lately?
Havoc
To answer your question Bobtoad, YES...the exploration and study of space is worth the daily deaths due to starvation and lack of housing. Now I know all the arguments for and against what we're doing to our own planet, and all the reasons regarding over population and limited resources...those all have their merits and flaws, but I will tell you the one most important reason why we should continue to explore space.
Guaranteeing the survival of the Human species...
Okay that may seem a bit much, but I think it is vital that we eventually begin off planet colonization of at least the Moon and Mars, and continue on from there, instead of "having all of our eggs in one basket" as the saying goes. By getting the species "off-planet" and reproducing, we stand a better chance of continuing our existience...
For any of you that might scoff at this argument, just remember; We're only one Near Earth Asteroid impact, or Mass Coronal Ejection away from going the way of the Dinosaurs...how many T-Rex's have you seen in your neighborhood lately?
Havoc
Bobtoad777
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Havocman said:
For any of you that might scoff at this argument, just remember; We're only one Near Earth Asteroid impact, or Mass Coronal Ejection away from going the way of the Dinosaurs...how many T-Rex's have you seen in your neighborhood lately?
Havoc
Three but I dont know what old people have to do with anything. j/k
Dixon Carter Lee
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Bob I think you're being a bit obtuse about the value of space exploration. Alonn with Teflon and Velcro the exploration of space has brought us all sorts of tiny things, like, um, the World Wide Web. Weather satellites predict hurricanes, saving thousands of lives each year. Life saving drugs that can only be produced in zero gravity will be produced on space stations. Hell, I could go on all day listing life-saving and life enriching products from the space program.
But don't belittle the sheer exhiliration of knowing that comes from exploring the planets. Every moon and planet we've thrown a probe at, and every deep space telescope we've peered into, has told us more and more about ourselves, and makes us more human I think.
Every astronaut who went to the moon and saw the thin slice of atmosphere surrounding our planet (which stuck out like a warm, blue ball of life against the vaccuum of the cosmos) came back to Earth changed, and with a deeper respect and concern for al life. That, too, space exploration gives us.
Vital real life applications on earth and an opportunity to define and examine our humanity -- not bad for the buck.
But don't belittle the sheer exhiliration of knowing that comes from exploring the planets. Every moon and planet we've thrown a probe at, and every deep space telescope we've peered into, has told us more and more about ourselves, and makes us more human I think.
Every astronaut who went to the moon and saw the thin slice of atmosphere surrounding our planet (which stuck out like a warm, blue ball of life against the vaccuum of the cosmos) came back to Earth changed, and with a deeper respect and concern for al life. That, too, space exploration gives us.
Vital real life applications on earth and an opportunity to define and examine our humanity -- not bad for the buck.
Magic Merlin
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Completely Wrong!
As someone who makes my living by the study of geology and physics, I can assure you your last statement there bob is completely off the mark. We know next to nothing about outer space as compared to our own planet. Yes, we have learned a tremendous amount about outer space in the last few decades, but compared with what we know about our own planet it is relatively nothing. That doesn't mean we know everything about earth. The truth is there is so much we don't know about our own planet, but compared to what we actually know and understand about space, our understanding of our planet is tremendous.
As far as over population of our planet, you must realize that not 100% of the earth's land surface is hospitable to human life. Remove Antartica, half of the continent of Australia, much of northern Canada and northern Asia and you have already removed approximately 40% of the earth's land surface from the areas that are hospitable. Look further at how much of the remaining land surface that is desert (northern Africa, the American West, much of central Asia) and you will see that the most hospitable areas of the earth's surface have already been populated as of the present.
And in those remaining areas you have large areas that are extremely mountainess (Rocky Mountains, Andes, Alps, Himalyan's) which have small areas that can be inhabited, but these areas tend to be have more delicate ecosystems so they don't have the necessary requirements to support high density populations. What you are left with is a planet that in the minds of many scientists has just about reached its sustainibility levels as far as the human population is concerned.
And then also consider other factors needed to support the human population such as available quantities of fresh water (which in most areas of the world are already strained), land that is sustainable for farming (much less than most people realize) to support the populations, current environmental degradation of some of the world's most desirable living and farming areas and then you begin to realize how small our planet really is.
Have we reached our limits of population on this planet? For myself, I believe we are very close to that limit.
Bobtoad777 said:
As someone who makes my living by the study of geology and physics, I can assure you your last statement there bob is completely off the mark. We know next to nothing about outer space as compared to our own planet. Yes, we have learned a tremendous amount about outer space in the last few decades, but compared with what we know about our own planet it is relatively nothing. That doesn't mean we know everything about earth. The truth is there is so much we don't know about our own planet, but compared to what we actually know and understand about space, our understanding of our planet is tremendous.
As far as over population of our planet, you must realize that not 100% of the earth's land surface is hospitable to human life. Remove Antartica, half of the continent of Australia, much of northern Canada and northern Asia and you have already removed approximately 40% of the earth's land surface from the areas that are hospitable. Look further at how much of the remaining land surface that is desert (northern Africa, the American West, much of central Asia) and you will see that the most hospitable areas of the earth's surface have already been populated as of the present.
And in those remaining areas you have large areas that are extremely mountainess (Rocky Mountains, Andes, Alps, Himalyan's) which have small areas that can be inhabited, but these areas tend to be have more delicate ecosystems so they don't have the necessary requirements to support high density populations. What you are left with is a planet that in the minds of many scientists has just about reached its sustainibility levels as far as the human population is concerned.
And then also consider other factors needed to support the human population such as available quantities of fresh water (which in most areas of the world are already strained), land that is sustainable for farming (much less than most people realize) to support the populations, current environmental degradation of some of the world's most desirable living and farming areas and then you begin to realize how small our planet really is.
Have we reached our limits of population on this planet? For myself, I believe we are very close to that limit.
Dixon Carter Lee
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I've decided to contribute to my very first "list" thread. I will now list all the people who should voluntarily leave the planet to make room for the rest of us...
*RING*
Damn, that's the phone. Gotta' go.
*RING*
Damn, that's the phone. Gotta' go.
Closet Desire
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The only peaceful thing we've done together...
The space race between the US and the USSR started when I was a child and, ironically, was based on the technology that Hitler intended to destroy England with. Yes, we used what we learned to build ICBMs and keyhole satellites, but there are positive aspects to it as well.
Many nations, including nations which simply cannot afford elaborate space programmes, are working together toward a shared goal of the space station plus manned and unmanned (or womaned) trips to Mars all at a fraction of the price of the arms race.
Starvation? You want to talk about starvation? The number of people dying of starvation today pales next to the starvation in Europe and Asia during and following the World Wars (what an appropriate day to discuss this!). It has been argued that more people...men, women, and children, died of starvation during the wars than from acts of war.
Personally anything that brings cultures together the way that space exploration has is a bargain. Any benefits that come out of it such as understanding our environment better (studies of the ozone layer and global warming were vastly helped by a space borne vantage point), new and more effective medicines, as well as the technological advances in solar energy and fuel cell development is just icing on the cake.
I dreamed about a space station when I was six years old. I am excited today at forty-something to see it finally coming together. I'm even more excited that the station was built and lofted by different countries and populated by different cultures. It inspires more trust and, in the long run, more humanity between us.
The space race between the US and the USSR started when I was a child and, ironically, was based on the technology that Hitler intended to destroy England with. Yes, we used what we learned to build ICBMs and keyhole satellites, but there are positive aspects to it as well.
Many nations, including nations which simply cannot afford elaborate space programmes, are working together toward a shared goal of the space station plus manned and unmanned (or womaned) trips to Mars all at a fraction of the price of the arms race.
Starvation? You want to talk about starvation? The number of people dying of starvation today pales next to the starvation in Europe and Asia during and following the World Wars (what an appropriate day to discuss this!). It has been argued that more people...men, women, and children, died of starvation during the wars than from acts of war.
Personally anything that brings cultures together the way that space exploration has is a bargain. Any benefits that come out of it such as understanding our environment better (studies of the ozone layer and global warming were vastly helped by a space borne vantage point), new and more effective medicines, as well as the technological advances in solar energy and fuel cell development is just icing on the cake.
I dreamed about a space station when I was six years old. I am excited today at forty-something to see it finally coming together. I'm even more excited that the station was built and lofted by different countries and populated by different cultures. It inspires more trust and, in the long run, more humanity between us.
Laurel
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I dreamed about a space station when I was six years old.
Me too...I can't even begin to describe how the idea of going to Space affects me. There are a couple of private companies that are planning space jaunts (not to the moon or anything, just right outside of the atmosphere) and I would definitely fork over the cash for that opportunity. Sounds weird coming from a girl who hates to fly, but it's true.
Me too...I can't even begin to describe how the idea of going to Space affects me. There are a couple of private companies that are planning space jaunts (not to the moon or anything, just right outside of the atmosphere) and I would definitely fork over the cash for that opportunity. Sounds weird coming from a girl who hates to fly, but it's true.
Ambrosious
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Ok After much floor pacing and several diet cokes, I am now calm enough to post a reply. Yeah, I am one of the "fortunate ones" out there. I've got money. Quite a bit of it. I want even more. That's why I work, even though I could live comfortably if I never raised another finger.
I was NOT born this way. I worked at it. I was born and raised in the southwestern mountains of VA a poor white trash hillbilly son of a farmer. We made OUR OWN SOAP for God's sake!
I worked on the only asset I had at the time, my voice. I worked to develop a singing voice but wound up a DJ instead. Went to college while working two jobs. Put off buying the camaro like my friends did. Used the first thousand I made to move OUT OF THERE. Yeah Yeah family and all that, but they were in no position to provide for me. Struggled for a while, until I LEARNED how to make money and make my money grow.
Yeah, I'm lucky, lucky enough to have the will power to put off immediate gratification in favor of future financial security. And I don't really care if you chose to ignore the poor choices you have made in life and instead like to think I'm lucky.
Now if you'll excuse me, I've got to get back to "luck."
I was NOT born this way. I worked at it. I was born and raised in the southwestern mountains of VA a poor white trash hillbilly son of a farmer. We made OUR OWN SOAP for God's sake!
I worked on the only asset I had at the time, my voice. I worked to develop a singing voice but wound up a DJ instead. Went to college while working two jobs. Put off buying the camaro like my friends did. Used the first thousand I made to move OUT OF THERE. Yeah Yeah family and all that, but they were in no position to provide for me. Struggled for a while, until I LEARNED how to make money and make my money grow.
Yeah, I'm lucky, lucky enough to have the will power to put off immediate gratification in favor of future financial security. And I don't really care if you chose to ignore the poor choices you have made in life and instead like to think I'm lucky.
Now if you'll excuse me, I've got to get back to "luck."
Bobtoad, you are way off base on this. Pure research is the most important scientific endeavor there is. Virtually every advance in technology, from better seeds for planting, to microwave ovens, to the computer you are using to decry research is a product of that research. There have been more technology spinoffs from the space program than I can name here.
The best chance for finding a new way to feed people or a cheaper, cleaner energy source lies in the research associated with the space program. Any attack on that research is very short sighted.
I wish I were more eloquient in my arguements. In the thread, Space the Final Frontier, by Carl East, someone else attacked the space program. Wierd Harold stated the case much better than I have here. You should look it up. Here is the link:
http://www.literotica.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=14751
The best chance for finding a new way to feed people or a cheaper, cleaner energy source lies in the research associated with the space program. Any attack on that research is very short sighted.
I wish I were more eloquient in my arguements. In the thread, Space the Final Frontier, by Carl East, someone else attacked the space program. Wierd Harold stated the case much better than I have here. You should look it up. Here is the link:
http://www.literotica.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=14751
Laurel
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Yeah, I'm lucky, lucky enough to have the will power to put off immediate gratification in favor of future financial security. And I don't really care if you chose to ignore the poor choices you have made in life and instead like to think I'm lucky.
You're lucky to live in a society that's afforded you the educational and professional opportunities that you've had the good sense to take advantage of. I'm not saying you're not intelligent or hard-working, because you obviously are. However, not everyone has those opportunities. In many parts of the world - in parts of this country, even - there ARE no opportunities. Period. No amount of hard work or intelligence can help can help a three-year-old starving child find food. No amount of hard work will help an intelligent man get a job in an economy where there are no jobs to be had.
There are people who are just as smart and hard-working as you out there who will never make it because they don't have options because of the circumstances of their birth. As far as the Darwin comparison goes - children of the powerful and wealthy tend to be LESS intelligent and LESS hard-working than their parents (i.e. the Hearst dynasty) because they don't HAVE to work hard.
For you to say that poor people deserve their fate is unbelievably callous. That's all I'm saying.
You're lucky to live in a society that's afforded you the educational and professional opportunities that you've had the good sense to take advantage of. I'm not saying you're not intelligent or hard-working, because you obviously are. However, not everyone has those opportunities. In many parts of the world - in parts of this country, even - there ARE no opportunities. Period. No amount of hard work or intelligence can help can help a three-year-old starving child find food. No amount of hard work will help an intelligent man get a job in an economy where there are no jobs to be had.
There are people who are just as smart and hard-working as you out there who will never make it because they don't have options because of the circumstances of their birth. As far as the Darwin comparison goes - children of the powerful and wealthy tend to be LESS intelligent and LESS hard-working than their parents (i.e. the Hearst dynasty) because they don't HAVE to work hard.
For you to say that poor people deserve their fate is unbelievably callous. That's all I'm saying.
