Socialism

[rosco rathbone]

Have you been following the thread closely?





'Cause when you casually jump in, you might leap to the wrong conclusions...

Most of the thread has been cockmeasuring and posturing. I'm not interested. My conclusion about you is that you push a narrative about a collusion between the bureaucratic class and the permanent underclass to destroy liberty. I'm pointing out historical facts that undermine your narrative.

 

[Frisco_Slug_Esq]

A child of the progressive era, the conservation movement in America hit its stride in the early 1900s. In the wake of the Industrial Revolution, Americans were beginning to realize a need to balance extensive technological developments against protecting our diverse organic grandeur. The movement was championed by President Theodore Roosevelt and brought to fruition by the efforts of John Muir. As the founder of the Sierra Club, Muir’s environmentalist philosophy played a key role in influencing the preservation of America’s natural beauty.

http://blog.justroughinit.com/the-c...n-america-founding-the-national-parks-system/

Progressives have always had rich friends and intellectuals to back their power grabs.

Of course, they're not Socialists, they just believe in the positive interference of Government instead of actually buying and preserving the land with their wealth...

 

[Frisco_Slug_Esq]

Most of the thread has been cockmeasuring and posturing. I'm not interested. My conclusion about you is that you push a narrative about a collusion between the bureaucratic class and the permanent underclass to destroy liberty. I'm pointing out historical facts that undermine your narrative.

The nascent conservation movement slowly developed in the 19th century, starting first in the scientific forestry methods pioneered by Prussia and France in the 17th and 18th centuries. While continental Europe created the scientific methods later used in conservationist efforts, British India and the United States are credited with starting the conservation movement.
Foresters in India, often German, managed forests using early climate change theories (in America, see also, George Perkins Marsh) that Alexander von Humboldt developed in the mid 19th century, applied fire protection, and tried to keep the "house-hold" of nature. This was an early ecological idea, in order to preserve the growth of delicate teak trees. The same German foresters who headed the Forest Service of India, such as Dietrich Brandis and Berthold Ribbentrop, traveled back to Europe and taught at forestry schools in England (Cooper's Hill, later moved to Oxford). These men brought with them the legislative and scientific knowledge of conservationism in British India back to Europe, where they distributed it to men such as Gifford Pinchot, which in turn helped bring European and British Indian methods to the United States.

Founder?


REALLY???

Other Wiki "facts." It developed in places where SOCIALISM was coming to the fore and ended up with the repeated economic collapses of Germany and Austria...

 

[rosco rathbone]

http://blog.justroughinit.com/the-c...n-america-founding-the-national-parks-system/

Progressives have always had rich friends and intellectuals to back their power grabs.

Of course, they're not Socialists, they just believe in the positive interference of Government instead of actually buying and preserving the land with their wealth...

Pinchot, who invented modern industrial forestry, was opposed to Muir.

Progressives have always had rich friends

That's probably the most I'm going to get out of you, as far as admitting that the simple public bad/private good dichotomy is nonsense.

Insurance regulation, meatpacking and food & drug, railway regulation, anti trust, financial regulation...all that good Progressive stuff--all at the behest of "rich friends", in other words, the elite who run the country.

 

[rosco rathbone]

Founder?


REALLY???

Other Wiki "facts." It developed in places where SOCIALISM was coming to the fore and ended up with the repeated economic collapses of Germany and Austria...

I'd be very interested to know what your beloved Austrians thought about scientific resource management and the place of government in dealing with market failure in that regard.

 

[Frisco_Slug_Esq]

I'd be very interested to know what your beloved Austrians thought about scientific resource management and the place of government in dealing with market failure in that regard.

That the market is a far more efficient distributor of resources and knowledge than government can ever be for the former has to place winning bets while the latter is betting with house money. If the former fails they go bankrupt (or punished by the court for damages) and if the latter fails, they print money and double-down on the bet.

Take ethanol, for example...

 

[Frisco_Slug_Esq]

Pinchot, who invented modern industrial forestry, was opposed to Muir.



That's probably the most I'm going to get out of you, as far as admitting that the simple public bad/private good dichotomy is nonsense.

Insurance regulation, meatpacking and food & drug, railway regulation, anti trust, financial regulation...all that good Progressive stuff--all at the behest of "rich friends", in other words, the elite who run the country.

You have to admit, that with each intervention, it became more important for "rich friends" to make sure that they came up on the good side of the looting, even when their intentions were initiated in the spirit of public altruism; their mistake was not using their rights to things like association, property and the courts to do good deeds on their own. They simply took the short-cut of government and now, in another example, BP controls the legislators, provides the regulations, and then purchases waivers...
__________________
When Government gets so powerful that its purchase price is cost effective, even imperative, to business, then business will purchase government indulgences.
A_J, the Stupid

There will be no medieval magic when one turns to government to be their champion. Government is not a shining knight on a strong horse; it is a night mare.
A_J, the Stupid

"It turns out, by the way, that oil rigs today generally don't cause spills. They are technologically very advanced. Even during Katrina, the spills didn't come from the oil rigs, they came from the refineries onshore."
Barack Hussein Obama

"Then why the hell did this president, what was it, two weeks after the spill started, signed another waiver for exactly this kind of deep sea drilling, another waiver for the exact same company!"
Don Imus

 

[rosco rathbone]

That the market is a far more efficient distributor of resources and knowledge than government can ever be for the former has to place winning bets while the latter is betting with house money. If the former fails they go bankrupt (or punished by the court for damages) and if the latter fails, they print money and double-down on the bet.

Take ethanol, for example...

That's a neat little summation of laissez faire theory in the abstract. I'd like to know what Mises and Hayek would have thought about the T. Roosevelt era Forestry Service, or the Meat Inspection Act of 1906 (which didn't precisely deal with "resource management" but definitely interferred with markets and skewed the advantage towards large producers).

 

[Frisco_Slug_Esq]

That's a neat little summation of laissez faire theory in the abstract. I'd like to know what Mises and Hayek would have thought about the T. Roosevelt era Forestry Service, or the Meat Inspection Act of 1906 (which didn't precisely deal with "resource management" but definitely interferred with markets and skewed the advantage towards large producers).

Don't know for sure about Hayek; he was a Socialist but Mises would have just pointed out that it was like pushing over one dom I know in a conga line...

Once government gets into the positive interference game, then there is no terminal point for doing good and every group of good intentions believes that now, they too have a right to government to address their charity/concern. It's that simple.

When government becomes the knight on a white horse, all you get is a nightmare...
__________________
There is black and white, and if you refuse to believe that, then you will accept grey and let me tell you gray tends to black for when you say ∃ of anything is a good function of government then ∃ is everything ¬∀ and while you may be able to advocate for ∃ you won't be allowed to define it and in this manner its limit will be ∀ for ∑f(∪∃)i [i=from you to the total population] will never tend to ∅ by definition so it is easy to see that it is, indeed, an ∀ or ∅ when it comes to government.
A_J, the Stupid

 

[rosco rathbone]

Hayek was a socialist? wtf

 

[Frisco_Slug_Esq]

Hayek was a socialist? wtf

Oh yeah, Mises went off on the Libertarians on the Lake Geneva shoreline...





Then, Rothbard began needling him as a Socialist too...


*tee hee*
__________________
The more corrupt the state, the more numerous the laws."
Cornelius Tacitus

 

[rosco rathbone]

Oh yeah, Mises went off on the Libertarians on the Lake Geneva shoreline...

fire in the sky...

 

[Frisco_Slug_Esq]

... standing in the purple rain...

 

[off2bed]

...fire on the mountain, lightning in the air,
Gold in them hills, and it's waitin' for me there...

 

[Frisco_Slug_Esq]

Yeah, but I'm the Tax Man!

 

[unregistered]

 

[Frisco_Slug_Esq]

The Beautiful Ones....

G-g-g-g-g-Golden years, GO-oooo-old...

 

[off2bed]

Ch- ch- ch- changes
Come and vote for strange changes
Look out, all you rock and rollers

 

[Frisco_Slug_Esq]

Ch- ch- ch- changes
Come and vote for strange changes
Look out, all you rock and rollers

Turn and face the strange...

 

[off2bed]

Turn and face the strange...

When you're strange
No one remembers your name.

Fame, I wanna live forever...
Re-mem-bah. Re-mem-bah. Re-mem-bah.

 

[Frisco_Slug_Esq]

Oh, won't you give me three days, give me three days mister,
And you'll be seeing me ever more!




The tale of the (last) tape...

 

[richard_daily]

^^^^ The borg collective speaks about socialism.

How ironic.

 

[KingOrfeo]

Progressives have always had rich friends and intellectuals to back their power grabs.

Yes, and they have always had even more rich enemies.

 

[JenAltArmy]

is the solution to declare: Financial Martial Law?

maybe this is the cure to socialism, to fix all the obama mistakes?

(read my post - new world order)

Yes, and they have always had even more rich enemies.

 

[kbate]

That's a neat little summation of laissez faire theory in the abstract. I'd like to know what Mises and Hayek would have thought about the T. Roosevelt era Forestry Service, or the Meat Inspection Act of 1906 (which didn't precisely deal with "resource management" but definitely interferred with markets and skewed the advantage towards large producers).

Hayek, in "The Road to Serfdom" - wrote about the problems with government managed or government interference in monopolies. Primarily when natural monopolies (such as rail, electric distribution, gas companies) use government regulation in order secure their monopoly from competitive forces. He also speaks of the monopoly of capital and the labour monopoly - and the negative effects of their cooperation in order to secure their own positions from competition.