So you're a feminist. Isn't that cute!

[destinie21]

How do you define feminism?

What do you think of feminists?


Just a question after a guy actually said to me

So you're a feminist. Isn't that cute!
I didn't know whether to laugh or be irrate.

 

[Guest]

Hey, Destgirl: I'm copying something I put in the 'dangerous language' thread because I can't answer your question otherwise.

In this fourth decade of feminism's second wave there's no simple answer. I liken a personal definition of feminism to what might be a reply to What's your definition of a Christian, Buddhist, Hindu, etc.? Feminism has sects now, many academic but not esoteric or irrelevant to 'the big picture'. So that's what the labels and areas below represent. Among my interests in feminist thought are feminist theology (Catholic). French feminism and mujerista/feminista.

The feminism with which I've had the most issues is "liberal" (that which came out of the American/U.S., middle-class, white (WASP) liberal times of the 70s. Initially they excluded women of color and lesbians, and were condescending to lower-class uneducated women. That's my bit. - Perdita

Feminist - legal theory, criminology, theology, socialism, psychoanalysis and psychology, economics, historical materialism, environmentalism (e.g., ecofeminism), ontology, pedagogy, epistemology, ethics, geography, performing arts, aesthetics.

Feminisms - French, British, American, Latin American (feminista y mujerista), Marxist, Black, essentialist, liberal, separatist, radical, racial, post-modern, lesbian, corporeal, matrixial.

 

[Never]

Perdita,
"I liken a personal definition of feminism to what might be a reply to What's your definition of a Christian, Buddhist, Hindu, etc.?"
If someone asked you what your personal definition of a Christian was, you'd respond by listing the sects of Christianity?

destinie21:
"How do you define feminism?"
A doctrine that advocates equal rights for women and the corner stone for the women's lib movement.

"What do you think of feminists?"
I wish there were more of them. As a whole, I think that anyone who tries to better the lot of other humans is a good person, beyond that it depends on the person and their ideology.

 

[Guest]

Perdita,
"I liken a personal definition of feminism to what might be a reply to What's your definition of a Christian, Buddhist, Hindu, etc.?"
If someone asked you what your personal definition of a Christian was, you'd respond by listing the sects of Christianity?

Never, I'd tell them what it means to me as a Roman Catholic, which is very different than how any other Christian might identify themselves. (Plus, I'm what is commonly labeled a very leftist Catholic; and no I cannot separate my identity as a Christian from that of a Catholic. See my point any better? At least ref. what I call a 'personal' answer.)

Perdita

 

[Never]

Okay then, what does feminism mean to you as a <insert what kind of feminist you are>?

 

[Guest]

Okay then, what does feminism mean to you as a <insert what kind of feminist you are>?

This is a profound question for me but I'm going to try and be concise.

As a Catholic feminist I am concerned with the patriarchy of the RCC and think women and gay people should be ordained, birth control and abortion not condemned.

As a proponent of the mujeristas I think Latin/South American culture needs to undo centuries of machismo and patriarchy that oppresses women at every level of society (class, religious, political, familial, economic).

As a 'fan' of French feminism, particularly what is labeled written on the body, I hope it further influences psychology, linguistics, and gender studies.

I am pro other feminisms but these three I personally identify with more than others.

 

[Dirty Slut]

How do you define feminism?

I define it as being feminine in nature to the natural order of things IE I am woman, and therefore feminine. Feminism: by extention would mean being feminine by nature, or by choice of attitude, and compulsions.

What do I think of feminists? These are people who respect, and love women equally as much as they love, and respect men. Hey, we're the in crowd, come join us now.

I am often asked what religion I am, or am I a religious person, and my standard answer is that I am not religious, I am a Christian. Religion says that you can earn your way to heaven by being good. Christianity states that you can never be good enough, that only one, who died to pay for the sins of all, was ever good enough. By faith alone are we healed.

DS

 

[Guest]

Early US Feminists

I tend to line up with the early US feminists. Two that I admire greatly are Elizabeth Caddie Stanton and Susan B. Anthony. Their ideology was based on the inherent value and dignity of every person.

As a woman engineer, I have played in the "boys club" and experienced the bias against women professionally. I turned down one job because I knew that I was the quota filling female in their eyes. I wanted to be hired because they were confident that I was the best person for the job, not because they felt compelled to hire a XX.

I don't belong to any societies that differentiate themselves based on gender.. no Society of Women Engineers or _______ Women. When I am recognized for my contributions to my profession or associations, I want them to be in the "big leagues".

I am a member of a sorority because I do believe that women share a precious camaradarie and that we can encourage and build each other up in fantastic ways.

Unlike many feminists, I do believe that we are unequal to men. Men and women are not swappable in some situations. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that we are designed differently. Denying our differences is self-defeating and degrading. I was horrified when I read of the marine that gave birth in the Iraqi war zone on board a deployed ship.

I am very concerned about the exploitation of women by men, whether it is by sex slave traders in the orient or husbands that abandon their wives and children to poverty here in the US.

b

 

[alltherage]

How do you define feminism?

What do you think of feminists?


Just a question after a guy actually said to me

So you're a feminist. Isn't that cute!
I didn't know whether to laugh or be irrate.

I would vote for irrate. If you believe that women should be treated in all ways with the same respect that men recieve then putting cute in a sentence with feminist is an out and out insult and the guy ought to be disabused of his folly. Aim for the balls darlin!

 

[Guest]

feminin-feminist

 

[Dirty Slut]

Aim for the balls darlin!

Yes, aim for the balls, but gently, not for harms sake, but for the future's sake.

DS

 

[Guest]

aim.......

 

[Svenskaflicka]

I'm a feminist. And I'd like to go one step further than just equal rights for men and women. I want to have equal opportunities for men and women, too!

A lot of women and men feel the same way as bridgetkeeney does: "if I don't get in on my merits, I don't want to get in".
The problem, as I see it, is that your merits have to be twice as good as a man's, if you're wanna be regarded by the men as being half as good as a man. It doesn't really matter how good you are. They don't want you there. You don't have a pee-pee, so you're not allowed to play in treehouse with the boys.

I'm for quoting. That allows women to get in and THEN show how good they are, instead of great women being pushed aside by good men, just because they don't have a penis.

The world's a men's club, and merits alone won't cut it. Do you honestly think that all men get in on because they're good? No.

Some argue that quoting means that you risk losing great men to let in good women. Funny, that seems more horrible to people than the opposite, that by not quoting, you're losing great women to let in good men.

I've always wondered what exactly men DO in their offices all day, that makes it more important to be a man than to be great at what you're doing..?

 

[Guest]

what they do....?

 

[Rumple Foreskin]

The feminism with which I've had the most issues is "liberal" (that which came out of the American/U.S., middle-class, white (WASP) liberal times of the 70s.

Perdita,

While I'm no scholar on the subject of American feminism, but IMHO you left out one very important group-Jewish women. I'm not trying to score debating points, just sharing thoughts, so I won't cobble up a list. If you don't know who they are, I may be wrong.

Rumple Foreskin

 

[deliciously_naughty]

I would define a feminist as any person who believes that men and women should be treated equally, and that women shouldn't be penalized because they are the ones who physically give birth.

*****
Feminism has become an "F" word. Why? The 80's were a huge decade of backlash, as has this new millenium. If you declare yourself a feminist, you risk being called unwomanly. For many feminists are those who value women who work and look down on women who choose to stay at home with children. For others, feminists are man haters. And the problem is that some women who call themselves feminists do fall into those categories.

We are now in our 3rd wave of feminism, and it is a splinter movement. If only we could agree on one goal, and go after it with a single minded focus, we could accomplish so much.

We have, by tradition, been an exclusionary movement. At first we excluded african americans (Elizabeth Cady Stanton and company are among those), in the second wave we excluded the poor, women of color and lesbians, and in our third wave we're so focused on our own splinter agendas that we're getting nothing done.


************
Why do I believe that feminism is still necessary?

Women still only make 75 cents to the man's dollar.

Although women recieve 6 weeks paid leave, I believe that it's not at full pay. You can get another 6 weeks unpaid...but if you're a single mom how can you do that?

Women are more likely to live below the poverty line

Women are still discouraged from working in male dominated fields

Women are still discouraged from taking "harder" maths and sciences (we've been working on it, but walk into any high school calculus class and look at the male/female ratio)

Female dominated fields make on average 20-25k a year less than other professions that require the same training (for examples, teachers and nurses who hold masters degrees as opposed to those who hold mbas)

Child care is not as available or affordable as it should be

Contraceptives are not as available or affordable as it should be

Abortion isn't as available or affordable as it should be

Women are still not legally considered equal to men

 

[Svenskaflicka]

First of all I am a human being.
Second, I am a woman.

 

[Guest]

 

[Guest]

Jewish and First Wave Feminists

Rumple, yes I did leave out Jewish women, only by oversight (and others in the same way or out of ignorance I'm sure). I've read great Jewish feminist thinkers and poets (not that poet = non-thinker ) Glad you made the addition.

Briquita: Glad you mentioned the first wave feminists; among them I'd add the Pankhurst women of Britain, and another famous one whose name I can't recall at the moment.

 

[Guest]

Paradigms

DN-

Nothing that I read in Stanton's or Anthony's writings indicate a desire to exclude African Americans or the poor from civil rights. Rather, I saw an incredible commitment to the ideal that all people have dignity and value.

They were strong champions of helping women that didn't have financial means and protecting children.

No, they weren't perfect. The were pragmatists in the promotion of an agenda that was palatable to those in charge. Baby steps, if you will.

I depart from the "abortion = equal rights for women." Having worked with women in crisis pregnancies, what has scorched my heart is so many believing they have no choice but to have an abortion. They are not "empowered" by the act. Many are crushed and beaten by the end of the ordeal. Abortions, so many times, are further exploitation of women by men.

*It was Margaret Sanger who targeted poor women of color for abortions because of her eugenic ideals.*

Regarding quotas giving opportunities, I will say that the market forces will do more to give opportunities than anything else. If a company excludes exceptional candidates due to their gender, they will be unable to compete, in the long run, with companies that have a better and larger pool of prospective employees.

b

 

[Guest]

Re: Paradigms

Abortions, so many times, are further exploitation of women by men.

Bikiní (the accent makes it the Spanish for bikini ):

I agree with your whole statement, very insightful as always. Re. what I've quoted of you here all the virulent and violent male anti-abortionists (including right-wing RCC prelates) come to mind.

Perdita

 

[Pure]

Hi Deliciously N,

I think you summed things up pretty well, but the shortcomings and the agenda.

It might also be pointed out that sometimes pursuit of the main items--equitable incomes-- has been neglected by some feminist groups' pursuit of, for instance, ever more minutely detailed specification re what will count as 'creating a hostile environment' under the sexual harassment laws and regulations (e.g. a pinup picture on the inside door of a male co worker's locker).

One of the most needed areas for attention continues to be the great amount of violence suffered by women, and one might say that perhaps feminism(s) will be unnecessary when women don't face death for asking for a divorce or separation or starting to 'see' someone new, after separation.

J.

 

[Guest]

Re: Paradigms

 

[Guest]

Re: Re: Paradigms

rhino who knows nothing

Thank you for your thoughts. You know a lot, man.

Perdita

 

[Guest]

Re: Re: Re: Paradigms