So, why is it that Pastor John Hagee gets less attention than Pastor Jeremiah Wright?

[3113]

Sigh. I chatted with my husband about this. I really wish people would try to make decisions from logical and analysis rather than all this ridiculous shit.

I'm far more nervous about a politician who says, "These are my religious convictions and I will not do anything to go against them--" Like not believing in evolution, wanting to keep homosexuals from marrying for religious reasons, etc.--than about a politician who visited a church on Sunday and sometimes agreed, and sometimes didn't agree with the pastor's sermon.

Let's get some perspective here, folks. These are not members of a cult mouthing the words of their cult leaders, glassy-eyed and being puppetted. So all you guys are doing, both sides, are trying to find some new way to convince the uncertain that they ought to be scared, scared to death of this candidate because he must believe all the same things his horrible pastor believes and OH MY GAWD he's gonna send all white folk to concentration camps!

In my mind, all this hoopla does is keep us from asking any of these candidates "Do you have a plan to save our failing economy, get us out of a a war that has done nothing for us but bleed us dry, and make sure we have resources and a future for our children?" THIS is what matters. That we ask them THESE question and get their answers. And then weigh THOSE answers.

I don't think Obama secretly hates white folk because his pastor has been brainwashing him with that idea for 20 years. I mean, in that case, let's talk to everyone else he's been regularly meeting with for 20 years. They've all had influence. Why just this pastor? Likewise, I don't think McCain secretly hates Jews or Catholics because this Rev. does--I think McCain wants that Rev's supporters to see him as conservative enough to vote for, and I think Obama liked the Rev's energy when he was younger, and now, as we see, is appalled by the fact that the man is using him to put out a terrible message.

So now he's pissed at the guy and won't be going back to that church. I'm sure no body's happy with that--you all want to keep the dialogue going so that we can ignore the real issues. It's far easier to try and scare each other into voting for a candidate with "what if's!" and "Don't you know who his friends are?" than it is to actually examine whether the candidate might run the country well.

That's all you're saying.

I, myself, think that all this shit proves that our leaders should be atheists. Maybe then we can talk about fact rather than fiction, and leaders can avoid such stupid connections that are, in the end, irrelevant.

 

[Jenny_Jackson]

Back to the original question -

Who's McCain running against in a hotly contested race? No one yet.

So naturally, the press centers on Obama and Rev Wright. I think rightfully so. If Obama sat in Wright's church for 20 years, we need to know what kind of slime he's soaked up. That's something that each voter in the primaries should take into account before casting their ballot.

Will McCain get to skate over the Hagee connection? Yes, until July. Then it will be a different race and that will become a selling point for the Dem Candidate.

Doesn't take a lot of brain power to figure that one.

 

[3113]

If Obama sat in Wright's church for 20 years, we need to know what kind of slime he's soaked up. That's something that each voter in the primaries should take into account before casting their ballot.

That's very nice, Jenny. Why don't you get us every sermon Wright has made for the last 20 years, and we can listen to ALL of them, because so far, we've only heard one. Why should we believe that Obama absorbed that "slime" and only that slime? If there's a sermon the pastor made 5 years ago saying, "Go out and help your fellow man, we're all god's children" then should we give that more weight than the other ones? That's a darn good message. Do Christmas and Easter sermons count for more?

And by the way, who do you listen to once a week and what do you remember from their "sermons." Can you quote them chapter and verse? Do you act on what they said? See, this is my problem. I know a lot of people who go to church, and sit and nod in agreement with the pastor, and get "spiritual" advice from him (which usually means, "Pastor, why has god made me sick? How should I pray to him?" Not, "Pastor, how can I better hate the evil white race?") I know very few who ever do a damn thing the pastor asked them to do once they've left the church.

And once again, why is this guy given more weight as an influence than anyone else that may be as close if not closer to Obama? Why should I assume that this guy's "slime" outweights the anti-black racism of his grandmother's "slime" that he soaked up for just as many years?

I'm sorry, but it's bogus. If the man is a card-carrying member of the Nation of Islam and quoting Farrakhan when he answers questions about his beliefs and what he'll do if elected into office, by all means, get back to me. But if he's just been hearing Sunday sermons that he might or might not take to heart--and we don't know which ones he took to heart because there's been 20 years of them and it's doubtful they were ALL like that...then it really doesn't mean shit.

 

[DeeZire]

This whole debate boils down to the soundbite mentality. For example, Rev. Wright never said the US government conspired to infect black people with AIDS. In answering a question about it, he said that, considering the fact that the US government had infected black soldiers with syphilis years ago, the AIDS conspiracy could, indeed be real. He was speaking hypothetically. Take it out of context, and he sounds like a screwball. Well, we all know by now he is a screwball, but he's a harmless screwball.

 

[S-Des]

This whole debate boils down to the soundbite mentality. For example, Rev. Wright never said the US government conspired to infect black people with AIDS. In answering a question about it, he said that, considering the fact that the US government had infected black soldiers with syphilis years ago, the AIDS conspiracy could, indeed be real. He was speaking hypothetically. Take it out of context, and he sounds like a screwball. Well, we all know by now he is a screwball, but he's a harmless screwball.

Wow, that is amazingly uninformed. Not only are you incorrectly quoting the reverand about AIDS (a statement he has since reinforced several times), there is no "fact" that America infected black people with syphillis. That is completely untrue (but I'm not surprised that you have included into your lovely opinion of America). The true story is that blacks who were had syphillis and were seeking medical care went untreated as a way of studying the disease (a disgusting example of our past...but still completely different with what you assert as the "truth"). http://www.tuskegee.edu/Global/Story.asp?s=1207586

As to your earlier post...you are more than welcome to believe that our soldiers are no better than Al Queada, that black people's brains are different, that black values are different than white ones, or any other nonsense you'd like to spew. Good luck trying to get a politician elected who espouses those same platitudes.

 

[Belegon]

Oh my God!!!! I've been listening to Amicus on this discussion board for almost five years! I am now completely converted to his point of view. I'm gonna go buy a shotgun and shoot all my fellow liberals!

Get a fucking grip, everybody. Just because you HEAR something doesn't mean you believe it.

I'm getting sick of this shit.

 

[DesertPirate]

Oh my God!!!! I've been listening to Amicus on this discussion board for almost five years! I am now completely converted to his point of view. I'm gonna go buy a shotgun and shoot all my fellow liberals!

Get a fucking grip, everybody. Just because you HEAR something doesn't mean you believe it.

I'm getting sick of this shit.

Since you and I will never agree on politics let me suggest a Remington 11-87 or a Benelli. Both autoloaders.

 

[Belegon]

Since you and I will never agree on politics let me suggest a Remington 11-87 or a Benelli. Both autoloaders.

no, no... I would never use a gun. That's if I was truly converted by Ami.

Remember, my position is that a man who takes a life should have to deal with the repercussions of feeling himself push the blade in farther and having the blood squirt and stain his clothes.

If the person deserved to die enough, you will be able to overcome the psychological damage done to yourself by the act of killing. If you are not able to face that, perhaps they don't really need to die?

 

[Belegon]

Will McCain get to skate over the Hagee connection? Yes, until July. Then it will be a different race and that will become a selling point for the Dem Candidate.

We agree on occasion.

 

[Boxlicker101]

Some of the things Wright said about America are true.

(your words from an earlier post)
"says we are no better than Al Quaeda, that it's the US of KKK, that blacks who seek the middle class are sell-outs, that we got what we deserved on 9/11, and that the government invented AIDS specifically to wipe out the black community,"

Personally, I don't buy the sell-out line, or the AIDS conspiracy (although there was a conspiracy to ignore aids for quite a long time) but everything else you mentioned that he said rings true.

The idea that Wright is somehow attacking America is absurd. He's attacking the status quo when it's detrimental to blacks. He's looking out for his people when no one else will. The guy obviously cares more about his country than most people. Unfortunately, he's a little over-the-top, but no more so than anyone else on the extreme right or left.

It's too bad that, in politics, telling it like it is can cause such a backlash.

Actually, there was never a conspiracy to ignore AIDS. When it was first identified, in the early and mid-eighties, it was thought to be an STD that affected mainly gay men. I remember the San Francisco Director of Public Health, or whatever his title was, suggesting that safe sexual practices, such as condoms or monogamy, might help slow the spread of the disease. To me, that seemed eminently reasonable, because those are methods that help prevent STD's.

Like now, gays in SF were organized and politically strong, and their howls of outrage were not to be believed. He was basically called a homophobe, because gay men felt they had a right to fuck all they wanted, any way they wanted. They were right, but exercising that right could be a very dangerous thing to do.

As for the syphilis you mentioned in a later post: Black men were not infected with the disease. They became infected in the conventional way, but they were not treated, and the nature of the illness was concealed from them. That was reprehensible enough; don't make it out to be any worse than it was.

 

[sr71plt]

Back to the original question -

Who's McCain running against in a hotly contested race? No one yet.

So naturally, the press centers on Obama and Rev Wright. I think rightfully so. If Obama sat in Wright's church for 20 years, we need to know what kind of slime he's soaked up. That's something that each voter in the primaries should take into account before casting their ballot.

Will McCain get to skate over the Hagee connection? Yes, until July. Then it will be a different race and that will become a selling point for the Dem Candidate.

Doesn't take a lot of brain power to figure that one.

I think Jenny is right about the part that McCain's fire dance on this topic just into the zone yet--that it will come up starting in July. That the media and/or political opposition aren't going to cut him any more slack on this than they currently are doing for Obama.

 

[DeeZire]

As to your earlier post...you are more than welcome to believe that our soldiers are no better than Al Queada, that black people's brains are different, that black values are different than white ones, or any other nonsense you'd like to spew.

Just to clarify, I never alluded to anything in the above paragraph. Please don't put words in my mouth.

The story I heard about the AIDS comment may pertain to one instance only. I don't spend a lot of time researching this stuff, but I believe my information is at least a level above the soundbites that seem to be the basis for everyone's assumptions. It is heartening to see people on this board who are well informed, although some of their conclusions are puzzling.

The whole point is, blacks are still discriminated against. A recent national poll indicated that fifteen percent (?) of voters would not vote for a black for president. Are we just supposed to shrug our shoulders and ignore the issue? Are we supposed to pretend that discrimination went away in the '60's? Are we supposed to suspend reality to support our various ideological positions?

They say the squeaky wheel gets the grease. Perhaps Rev Wright's job was to be the squeaky wheel, at least until it fell off. His frustration would be understandable to anyone with a compassionate bone in their body. Perhaps that's the basis for the divergent opinions expressed around here - a profound lack of compassion.

 

[Le Jacquelope]

Since most people on the left bash the Catholic Church as a dailey ritual why would this be any different?

We get used to it and ignore most of it.
If you consider the sources of most of the anti-religious rants around the mainstream media they are pretty easy to ignore

I don't bash the Catholic church - I have issues with them, but bashing them is no different than bashing Jews. Pastor Neimoller put it quite well, actually.

 

[shereads]

Last night Newt Gingrich was on Jon Stewart.

He was?

Eww.

 

[S-Des]

Just to clarify, I never alluded to anything in the above paragraph. Please don't put words in my mouth.

I didn't. All of those statements have been made by the good Rev Wright. Since you said that some of his quotes were true (btw, the same could be said about anyone Right or Left, no matter how extreme their opinions were) and that he wasn't attacking America (which I completely disagree with), I was throwing in more of his quotes than the soundbites seen on YouTube that he spent so much of his time complaining about. I find his rhetoric incredibly insulting on every level possible (but I have to admit he's made quite the career out of it). People try to romanticize it, which I find amusing because if it was someone like Hagee saying it, the very same people would be mercilessly attacking him.

As someone who lives in close proximity to his church, I've seen this crap for most of my life (not just from him, obviously). I've known about Obama since the mid-90s when he ran against Bobby Rush and claimed there was no difference between them even though Rush is a former Black-Panther and a far Left Liberal (nothing wrong with that, but again people try to sell Obama as a Moderate, which doesn't jive with anything I've ever seen from him). It's also inducing because the same people complaining about linking Wright and Obama will be more than happy to find anything to attack McCain about. Bottom line is, this is politics and Obama had the power all along to deal with this problem. He chose a certain way to handle it, and has paid somewhat for that choice. Politics is a tough racket and anyone running for President better be ready for any and all questions. I don't worship at the alter of any politician, and will not take his word for it that he's for Change, Hope, or Uniting. If he gets elected I'll give him the chance to prove it, but I'm not expecting much.

 

[Guest]

Last night Newt Gingrich was on Jon Stewart.

He was?

Eww.

Yeah.

I think Newt was interested in more than just doing the talk show but Jon couldn't stop laughing.

 

[shereads]

What a lovely world it would be if presidential candidates didn't have to pretend to be deeply religious.

 

[Le Jacquelope]

I didn't. All of those statements have been made by the good Rev Wright. Since you said that some of his quotes were true (btw, the same could be said about anyone Right or Left, no matter how extreme their opinions were) and that he wasn't attacking America (which I completely disagree with), I was throwing in more of his quotes than the soundbites seen on YouTube that he spent so much of his time complaining about. I find his rhetoric incredibly insulting on every level possible (but I have to admit he's made quite the career out of it). People try to romanticize it, which I find amusing because if it was someone like Hagee saying it, the very same people would be mercilessly attacking him.

As someone who lives in close proximity to his church, I've seen this crap for most of my life (not just from him, obviously). I've known about Obama since the mid-90s when he ran against Bobby Rush and claimed there was no difference between them even though Rush is a former Black-Panther and a far Left Liberal (nothing wrong with that, but again people try to sell Obama as a Moderate, which doesn't jive with anything I've ever seen from him). It's also inducing because the same people complaining about linking Wright and Obama will be more than happy to find anything to attack McCain about. Bottom line is, this is politics and Obama had the power all along to deal with this problem. He chose a certain way to handle it, and has paid somewhat for that choice. Politics is a tough racket and anyone running for President better be ready for any and all questions. I don't worship at the alter of any politician, and will not take his word for it that he's for Change, Hope, or Uniting. If he gets elected I'll give him the chance to prove it, but I'm not expecting much.

Okay allow me to settle this part: Wright is an idiot and I wish he would shut the fuck up. Not just shut up, but shut the fuck up. I don't even remotely agree with what he has said.

I still contend that Obama did not ask for this fool's endorsement, and McCain did ask for Hagee's endorsement. Obama does not want someone like that hanging on him; McCain is like you, he doesn't think Hagee is all that offensive, so he won't spurn Hagee's endorsement.

You want to go on about who Obama has had in his life for 20 years; let's talk about that - but let's also talk about who is courting who right now. Is there a reason why you want to skip by the issue of who is courting who right now?

 

[SweetPrettyAss]

Okay allow me to settle this part: Wright is an idiot and I wish he would shut the fuck up. Not just shut up, but shut the fuck up. I don't even remotely agree with what he has said.

I still contend that Obama did not ask for this fool's endorsement, and McCain did ask for Hagee's endorsement. Obama does not want someone like that hanging on him; McCain is like you, he doesn't think Hagee is all that offensive, so he won't spurn Hagee's endorsement.

You want to go on about who Obama has had in his life for 20 years; let's talk about that - but let's also talk about who is courting who right now. Is there a reason why you want to skip by the issue of who is courting who right now?

I think we all agree that both these sanctimonious, hypocrite assholes should shut the fuck up. They are opposide sides of the same coin. I don't know if Obama asked for Wright's endorsement or not, but he probably expected to receive it. I have a hard time believing that McCain actually asked for Hagee's, although he did accept it, which is bad enough. Just as Obama has finally disowned Wright, McCain has denounced every thing about Hagee, except for his espressions of support for Israel.

 

[SweetPrettyAss]

This might make for an interesting campaign between McCain and Obama. They will compete to see who can most convincingly denounce his supporters.

 

[shereads]

This might make for an interesting campaign between McCain and Obama. They will compete to see who can most convincingly denounce his supporters.

Denouncing a supporter without distancing the supporter's supporters is an underappreciated art.

 

[Guest]

Denouncing a supporter without distancing the supporter's supporters is an underappreciated art.

You talking undergarments or constituents?

I'm envisioning some low-hanging balls. Er, fruit.

 

[DesertPirate]

You talking undergarments or constituents?

I'm envisioning some low-hanging balls. Er, fruit.

Of course you are

 

[Le Jacquelope]

I think we all agree that both these sanctimonious, hypocrite assholes should shut the fuck up. They are opposide sides of the same coin. I don't know if Obama asked for Wright's endorsement or not, but he probably expected to receive it. I have a hard time believing that McCain actually asked for Hagee's, although he did accept it, which is bad enough. Just as Obama has finally disowned Wright, McCain has denounced every thing about Hagee, except for his espressions of support for Israel.

McCain said he courted Hagee's endorsement.

 

[shereads]

You talking undergarments or constituents?

There's a difference?