So what's this intersex thing?

[stickygirl]

Since we now have an 'I' in the forum title, I thought I'd kick off a thread about Intersex and you're all welcome to chip in. I'm not an expert by any means, but since estimates are that there are as many Intersex people as Transgender (1-2%) they deserve to be understood.

Firstly, it's a genetic condition and you can google the facts or check out their support network InterAct. There's no reason why an intersex person would necessarily gravitate to Lit because from the pov of sexuality and their libido, they're no different to the rest of the population.
It's also an umbrella term to cover a number of different genetic variations that manifest themselves in physical differences that may appear in a newly born infant.

In the past the medical world took it upon themselves to provide a "cure" by performing "corrective surgery". Essentially they flipped a coin and decided 'Well these genitals look vaguely masculine so lets do a nip and tuck' thinking that gender was decided by what was between a person's legs. Even when ultra sound became available to provide further information, the medical wisdom was that 'Your child will integrate better in society if they look 'normal'' and 'the kid will get used to it'.

The results were often disastrous to the individual later in life, causing them both physical and mental problems. The practise was largely stopped around 2000 as parents become more enlightened about the condition, but it still isn't illegal.

Aside from being aware of the scope of the variations, that's about all I know. I probably have met an intersex person, and so have you, but I haven't yet shaken hands and talked about it with them.

Here's a bit of reading for you in a book called Annabel by Kathleen Winter 2011. It's a touching story that explores a fictional character and their family, from birth through to the awakening of the hidden gender of the protagonist. A good read.
There's also Golden Boy by Abigail Tarttelin 'To the outside world Max is a loving son, brother, captain of the football team. But Max was born intersex ... now something horrific has happened to him, the consequences of which have left him questioning his true identity'

 

[Subsy]

Since we now have an 'I' in the forum title, I thought I'd kick off a thread about Intersex and you're all welcome to chip in. I'm not an expert by any means, but since estimates are that there are as many Intersex people as Transgender (1-2%) they deserve to be understood.

Firstly, it's a genetic condition and you can google the facts or check out their support network InterAct. There's no reason why an intersex person would necessarily gravitate to Lit because from the pov of sexuality and their libido, they're no different to the rest of the population.
It's also an umbrella term to cover a number of different genetic variations that manifest themselves in physical differences that may appear in a newly born infant.

In the past the medical world took it upon themselves to provide a "cure" by performing "corrective surgery". Essentially they flipped a coin and decided 'Well these genitals look vaguely masculine so lets do a nip and tuck' thinking that gender was decided by what was between a person's legs. Even when ultra sound became available to provide further information, the medical wisdom was that 'Your child will integrate better in society if they look 'normal'' and 'the kid will get used to it'.

The results were often disastrous to the individual later in life, causing them both physical and mental problems. The practise was largely stopped around 2000 as parents become more enlightened about the condition, but it still isn't illegal.

Aside from being aware of the scope of the variations, that's about all I know. I probably have met an intersex person, and so have you, but I haven't yet shaken hands and talked about it with them.

Here's a bit of reading for you in a book called Annabel by Kathleen Winter 2011. It's a touching story that explores a fictional character and their family, from birth through to the awakening of the hidden gender of the protagonist. A good read.
There's also Golden Boy by Abigail Tarttelin 'To the outside world Max is a loving son, brother, captain of the football team. But Max was born intersex ... now something horrific has happened to him, the consequences of which have left him questioning his true identity'

Thank you Stickygirl. Who we are, what we look like, gender clues and etc…..kinda squishy…..bc ya kno….we shape shift in various ways depending on circumstances……We humans are like biologic kaleidoscopes….one little shift and the picture changes.
I like your posts…pretty sure I like you overall. Smile.

 

[Zrosey]

Aside from being aware of the scope of the variations, that's about all I know. I probably have met an intersex person, and so have you, but I haven't yet shaken hands and talked about it with them.

I would imagine intersex people are much like a lot of trans and genderqueer folks in that they would love to live their life as themselves and be accepted.
I'm just finishing reading Annabel by Kathleen Winter and it's going to be one of those books I go back to and re-read.
But it def is one that I found myself feeling sad for the title character. But also the frustration of having to live a life that others chose for her.

 

[stickygirl]

I would imagine intersex people are much like a lot of trans and genderqueer folks in that they would love to live their life as themselves and be accepted.
I'm just finishing reading Annabel by Kathleen Winter and it's going to be one of those books I go back to and re-read.
But it def is one that I found myself feeling sad for the title character. But also the frustration of having to live a life that others chose for her.

There are parallels. Both I's and T's suffer interference from officials who overstep their authority. When you take away an individual's autonomy it's the same as any other form of abuse, from imprisonment to torture.

 

[stickygirl]

The Intersex Society of North America is against a concealment model, or what amounts to nonconsensual surgery on infants and children. They do have certain ideas regarding gender and why they don't believe intersex babies/children should be raised "gender neutral," which some small number of parents do (not for intersex children but just in general):



"Instead, adults with intersex conditions who underwent genital surgeries at early ages most often cite those early genital surgeries and the lies and shame surrounding those procedures as their source of pain."

Considering how these procedures can cause lasting nerve damage (numbness and pain), among other psychological and emotional issues surrounding this medical trauma, I can only imagine but understand why. Gender exists in every human society there is. The real issue for us is that ours is extremely limiting and precarious at times. So some transformation should take place, probably not a total annihilation.

That's interesting from my pov because it's been suggested to me that if we had a genderless society, wouldn't that fix your problem(s)? While I wouldn't wish atypical chromosomes on anyone, I like that our intersex friends are encouraged to choose their gender based on ... what they feel fits them best, I suppose.

 

[AWhoopsieDaisy]

If you don't know an intersex person, congratulations, now you do.

It's complicated but if there's one thing I'd like to beat into the heads of you perisex folk: intersex people aren't a third sex or hermaphrodites. Any man or woman with even one of the many conditions that make up the intersex umbrella can be considered intersex. There are intersex cisgender men, intersex cisgender women, intersex transgender men and intersex transgender women.

 

[stickygirl]

 

[Paradox]

Another book is the novel Middlesex by Jeffry Eugenides. I read it years ago and liked it, but can't give an honest review.

 

[Britva415]

it's a genetic condition

Isn't it true that some genetic conditions are intersex conditions and some intersex conditions are genetic conditions, but not all intersex conditions or "presentations" are definitively genetic?

I thought it was. I don't know, I'm asking.

 

[stickygirl]

Isn't it true that some genetic conditions are intersex conditions and some intersex conditions are genetic conditions, but not all intersex conditions or "presentations" are definitively genetic?

I thought it was. I don't know, I'm asking.

I'm at the edges of my knowledge here! There are several variations and some more physically obvious at birth but some only later in life. Some intersex person only learn of their condition if they're having trouble getting pregnant and scans reveal their internal anatomy. I'd take a guess that someone's genes may be predisposed to intersex ( one parent may have that chromosome ) , but may not have physical characteristics - so the effect may skip a generation etc.
I'm physics, not genetics. It's complicated stuff.

 

[Bramblethorn]

Isn't it true that some genetic conditions are intersex conditions and some intersex conditions are genetic conditions, but not all intersex conditions or "presentations" are definitively genetic?

I thought it was. I don't know, I'm asking.

This is correct. It'd be more accurate to say that "intersex" describes a range of congenital conditions (i.e. present at birth). These may be caused by genetic conditions, but there are other things that can affect fetal development e.g. medications taken during pregnancy.

 

[BenHoping]

I was completely unaware of Intersex until hearing this fabulous interview on NPR: https://www.npr.org/2023/07/05/1186023140/every-body-documentary-explores-the-intersex-experience

It's longish, but certainly worth a listen--a deep dive into the history and current treatment of intersex folks.

 

[stickygirl]

I was completely unaware of Intersex until hearing this fabulous interview on NPR: https://www.npr.org/2023/07/05/1186023140/every-body-documentary-explores-the-intersex-experience

It's longish, but certainly worth a listen--a deep dive into the history and current treatment of intersex folks.

Thanks Ben. I've also found a 48min video from families in the UK.

As the commentary mentions, years ago doctors thought gender was nurture, not nature. I guess the kind thing to say is that medicine is a science too and can't always be correct, but slowly medical practices are catching up. Some heart-breaking tales... and often the parents know best.

I'm always conscious that linking from a sex site to such content might be questionable but the video was aired publicly and has sensibly blurred out body parts. It's clear that many adult intersex people feel angry about infant 'corrective' surgery and that the medical world advised hushing up their condition, as though it was shameful. Of course, the same used to be true of gay people.

 

[comegently]

Thanks Ben. I've also found a 48min video from families in the UK.

As the commentary mentions, years ago doctors thought gender was nurture, not nature. I guess the kind thing to say is that medicine is a science too and can't always be correct, but slowly medical practices are catching up. Some heart-breaking tales... and often the parents know best.

Psychology is only a half-science. It isn't like physics or mathematics. The science is mixed with a lot of politics and assumptions. It's always that way until hard science catches up, just as doctors used to give their prognosis based on whether a black cat had crossed the patient's path. This was the "blank sheet" theory, which fitted well with common beliefs within that other part-science, Sociology.
It's no accident that, in the UK at least, the birth of terfism involved older academics who had published Greer-style papers on gender in the 1970s. I was there, years ago, at a public meeting between the UK government, trans people, and, by surprise, some vociferous terf activists, waving bunches of paper at the politicians and yelling "haven't you read my paper?"

 

[stickygirl]

Psychology is only a half-science. It isn't like physics or mathematics. The science is mixed with a lot of politics and assumptions. It's always that way until hard science catches up, just as doctors used to give their prognosis based on whether a black cat had crossed the patient's path. This was the "blank sheet" theory, which fitted well with common beliefs within that other part-science, Sociology.
It's no accident that, in the UK at least, the birth of terfism involved older academics who had published Greer-style papers on gender in the 1970s. I was there, years ago, at a public meeting between the UK government, trans people, and, by surprise, some vociferous terf activists, waving bunches of paper at the politicians and yelling "haven't you read my paper?"

Surgeons should be regarded as being great at plumbing or carpentry but they seldom keep in touch with patient's beyond their medical responsibilities - they don't see the mental effect it can later have on their patients. They make assumptions based on propriety and perhaps their own childhood, seeing kids being picked on for being different.
The problem is not the child but society and the fucking binary BS.

ETA
Reflecting on what I've learned about Intersex makes me realise how much trans folk have in common with them, in terms of knowing what your gender is, despite what your body appears to suggest.

 

[BenHoping]

Thanks Ben. I've also found a 48min video from families in the UK.

As the commentary mentions, years ago doctors thought gender was nurture, not nature. I guess the kind thing to say is that medicine is a science too and can't always be correct, but slowly medical practices are catching up. Some heart-breaking tales... and often the parents know best.

I'm always conscious that linking from a sex site to such content might be questionable but the video was aired publicly and has sensibly blurred out body parts. It's clear that many adult intersex people feel angry about infant 'corrective' surgery and that the medical world advised hushing up their condition, as though it was shameful. Of course, the same used to be true of gay people.

Thanks SG--the interviews with the families were sad/hopeful/sweet/--all those things for the 4 groups presented!

 

[stickygirl]

Eventually YouTube sends you appropriate, informative content and Emily Quinn's story is moving and honest in one of those great Tedx Talks....

who curates those talks I wonder? I'll go Google it I guess

ETA
"TEDx events are local, independently-organized events, which aim to bring people together under the organization's mission statement of “ideas worth spreading.” You could organize an entire TEDx conference, a university or youth event, one within your company or organization, or a viewing party around an official event ..."
Didn't know that

 

[SmoothAndSweet]

Since we now have an 'I' in the forum title, I thought I'd kick off a thread about Intersex and you're all welcome to chip in. I'm not an expert by any means, but since estimates are that there are as many Intersex people as Transgender (1-2%) they deserve to be understood.

Firstly, it's a genetic condition and you can google the facts or check out their support network InterAct. There's no reason why an intersex person would necessarily gravitate to Lit because from the pov of sexuality and their libido, they're no different to the rest of the population.
It's also an umbrella term to cover a number of different genetic variations that manifest themselves in physical differences that may appear in a newly born infant.

In the past the medical world took it upon themselves to provide a "cure" by performing "corrective surgery". Essentially they flipped a coin and decided 'Well these genitals look vaguely masculine so lets do a nip and tuck' thinking that gender was decided by what was between a person's legs. Even when ultra sound became available to provide further information, the medical wisdom was that 'Your child will integrate better in society if they look 'normal'' and 'the kid will get used to it'.

The results were often disastrous to the individual later in life, causing them both physical and mental problems. The practise was largely stopped around 2000 as parents become more enlightened about the condition, but it still isn't illegal.

Aside from being aware of the scope of the variations, that's about all I know. I probably have met an intersex person, and so have you, but I haven't yet shaken hands and talked about it with them.

Here's a bit of reading for you in a book called Annabel by Kathleen Winter 2011. It's a touching story that explores a fictional character and their family, from birth through to the awakening of the hidden gender of the protagonist. A good read.
There's also Golden Boy by Abigail Tarttelin 'To the outside world Max is a loving son, brother, captain of the football team. But Max was born intersex ... now something horrific has happened to him, the consequences of which have left him questioning his true identity'

THANK YOU!

 

[stickygirl]

Sport always brings out the best, and worst, in people - everyone wants to win; everyone wants a level pitch. So a couple of boxers in the Olympics have been banned by the IBA because they claim, on the basis of one test and without providing evidence, that two women boxers have XY chromosomes and therefore are men. The IOC has blocked the IBA from being governing body for Olympic selections.
Here's an article in the Independent that has more
As the article, and other commentators with real medical understanding, points out having XY ≠ male but can be the result of a variety of developmental syndromes. It does not mean the person is transgender or has acted to change their gender, it is how they were born.

And a little more - a statement from the IOC today

 

[stickygirl]

I found this article quite interesting, which sheds light on the scientific definitions ( or lack of them ) as to what gender is. It isn't simply a cheek swab XX or XY, but how any differences in chromosomes become expressed in the body. Also, that we may not be thinking 1:15,000 for DSD but perhaps 1:300 in the population.

There's a suggestion that the IOC may be adopting the wrong standards because the science remains inconclusive. The IOC's attitude looks like 'no intention to defraud' when it comes to matters of sex and gender.

 

[stickygirl]

Video short - worth watching

I was actually searching YT for a video from a trans woman who is also tired of being sexualised. All I'm seeing is right-wing transphobic BS and disinformation.... like = "Wow! They found another person who's de-transitioned! Stop the train, I need to get off"

 

[magic_rat]

You are definitely right about trans women being sexualised but don't you think all women are sexualised in our society?

Women are sexualised and objectified but trans women tend to be fetishised. It must be abhorrent to be the object of somebody's desire just because you fit someone's fantasy. I was chatting to a black guy who said the same thing about people fetishising him just because of skin colour.

I've dated 3 trans women (2 of whom are close friends now). I don't know if I know, or have known, any intersex people. And I don't need to know. The least important thing amongst my friends, and the people I have sex with, is what's in their underwear.

 

[stickygirl]

Women are sexualised and objectified but trans women tend to be fetishised.

^^ nailed it. Thanks