Smart Bombs? Precision Bombing?

[p_p_man]

With the American deaths and those of soldiers from the Northern Alliance by bombs from a B-52, just how much of the truth are we told about the capabilities of all these Hi-Tec weapons?

A different picture was slowly beginning to emerge with the bombings of the Red Crescent Hospital and the UN food depot showing that this precision bombing isn't as precise as we are led to believe.

Is it a question of our anticipation being raised by the military and the politicians who use this up-beat language to make us believe our weapons are almost unbeatable? Or is it just a matter of the odd guidance system not working.

Mind you the UN food depots were bombed twice!

And there were quite a few isolated houses that were hit square on.

 

[oakleyx4]

human-error

human error

 

[LukkyKnight]

The now infamous JDAM

Is, in point of fact, a strap-on kit for an old "dumb" bomb. So they take one of these one-ton bricks, add fins, guidance controls, a GPS system, and $40,000 later you now have a smart-bomb. Note this is not a missile, nor a guided missile, it is a very spendy, upgraded bomb. It relies on numerous factors, but given the volume of them being dropped it is absolutely inevitable that some fraction of the JDAMs will not perform absofuckinglutely perfectly. They ride around in a plane, bouncing and jostling, they rely on being able to make adjustments during freaking free-fall on a ton of metal and explosive that was never designed to have such capability.

Get over it.

 

[p_p_man]

Re: The now infamous JDAM

Get over it.

This latest questioning about the "smartness" of smart bombs inter alia, reminded me of that famous picture taken during the Gulf War of that missile going through a window and blowing the building sky high.

Afterwards a lot of rumours were going around, even then, that the footage was faked.

 

[pabloback]

reminds me of the kenny everitt character "general bomb the bastards "

 

[Phoenyx]

The Alliance has killed more Alliance soldiers than the Taliban has.

Why do they call it friendly fire? What so friendly about it?

 

[LukkyKnight]

look, pp, it's like this, ok?

If you drop enough bombs, you can show footage of anything from an eye-popping bulls-eye to a bomb which goes off while being loaded. The law of averages helps get most of them damn close to 'on-the-money' when you start with well-engineered doohickeys but nature insures that there's a degree of deviation which can be neither predicted on a case-by-case basis nor controlled across the entire exercise/sample.

Can you throw darts the same place ever time?

Smart bombs can hit all of their targets some of the days.
Dumb bombs can hit some of their targets all of the days.
Neither smart bombs, targeted missiles, nor guided missiles will hit all of their targets and nothing but their targets every bloody day.

I'm not claiming all the footage is real, or that I believe everything Tony Blair says, just that it's not surprising when some tiny fraction of the stuff doesn't work right.

 

[Cherry]

Accidents happen...

Not to mention that at this stage of the operation, troops are closer and less distinguishable from each other. Friendly casualties become more likely, and the precision of bombing more of a danger to unintended targets.

You fail to add that the Red Cross building had been vacated prior to any military action when the Taliban forced all foreign aides out of Afghanistan ... and also, that there were independent reports that the Taliban had confiscated their vehicles and supplies and taken control of the building. Certainly seems feasible, when a secondary explosion caused a plume of smoke to burn for four hours after it was bombed, that the Taliban were using the building to hide weapons ... blankets and wheat aren't explosive. Hmm?

You forget who the enemy is PeePee ... they don't have ethics or honor. They hide in residential areas, hospitals, among civilization to avoid detection ... knowing full well that we do not target civilians.

Can't wait to hear your take on the massacre of innocent prisoners of war next. Or have you already done that?

 

[p_p_man]

Hey LukkyKnight...

I agree with you!

Pass me a whisky quick. Make it a double!

 

[pabloback]

p p man turns sycophant
and to think i stood up for him on another thread
sheeesh

 

[kiwiwolf]

Would you rather see a return to carpet bombing a la Rolling Thunder in Vietnam. Fact of the matter is no matter how careful the American crews are there are going to be civilian casualties. It's the nature of the beast.

As Lukky Knight said, they aren't perfect, but they are as close to it as possible. Perfect target aquisition can be nearly always achieved by hands on human guidance... like a couple of religious zealots sitting in the cockpits of hi-jacked airliners. Don't forget the innocent casualties on our side. 5000?

 

[p_p_man]

Re: Accidents happen...

You forget who the enemy is PeePee ...

Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought it was bin Laden.

The destruction of the Talaban is just the result of Bush having a temper tantrum for not handing over the "enemy".

Personally I think a lot of people in America got carried away with the blood lust of the whole thing and lost sight of the real target.

I don't thnk I can be persuaded that it had to be done to save the body bag count going up only because it didn't seem to matter to the American Government about the Afghani civilians' own body count.

Their hidden agenda was quite clear. Get rid of the Government first to give America some influence in the country. Then look for bin Laden by bombing the caves and tunnels he's meant to be hiding in.

Well they've succeeded up to a point on the first obejective, although the jury's still out about what influence they will manage to retain. And the second objective still has to be obtained.

But already Bush is talking about Iraq, Somalia and Aden...

 

[kiwiwolf]

Re: Re: Accidents happen...

Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought it was bin Laden.

The destruction of the Talaban is just the result of Bush having a temper tantrum for not handing over the "enemy".

Personally I think a lot of people in America got carried away with the blood lust of the whole thing and lost sight of the real target.
QUOTE


Bollocks. I don't like Bush or his politics, but the Taliban left him no choice. If they had handed over Bin Laden when asked to do so, the Taliban would still be free to terrorise their own people. And don't give me that old chestnut about the Taliban not knowing where he was... It doesn't wash. He was their guest. America wanted Bin Laden, and I think they would have left the Taliban alone if they got him. Who the hell would commit ground troops to a totally uneccessary war. The Yanks aren't idiots.

 

[p_p_man]

Re: Re: Re: Accidents happen...

Who the hell would commit ground troops to a totally uneccessary war. The Yanks aren't idiots.

The Yanks no, but Bush...

I still think he's the biggest threat to world peace around.

 

[Guest]

As i understood it the plan was to attack terrorists whereever they are and the governments that support them. The Taliban government had ample opportunity to hand over Bin Ladin or to allow us to find him. That opportunity was ignored.

As for smart bombs. It qualifies as an oximoron. It is in the same category as military itelligence.

As for the war after Afganistan. I think the retoric is dream land stuff. I honestly do not see a war with Iraq or Iran or Siria happening. There is too much interconnection between our (western) economies and oil. Once this is over something must be done to restore the status quo between the Israelis and the palestinians. I think that will become a priority. Of course someone will go to town on somalia.

My greatest fear is that 10 years from now things will be worse than they are now and by a long shot. Look around the world in places were hatred is born early and it runs deep. Ireland, Israel. sri lanka, those conflicts have been intractable for decades if not centuries. I fear we are creating the framework for a new cold war. Hope i am wrong.

 

[kiwiwolf]

As i understood it the plan was to attack terrorists whereever they are and the governments that support them. The Taliban government had ample opportunity to hand over Bin Ladin or to allow us to find him. That opportunity was ignored.

As for smart bombs. It qualifies as an oximoron. It is in the same category as military itelligence.

As for the war after Afganistan. I think the retoric is dream land stuff. I honestly do not see a war with Iraq or Iran or Siria happening. There is too much interconnection between our (western) economies and oil. Once this is over something must be done to restore the status quo between the Israelis and the palestinians. I think that will become a priority. Of course someone will go to town on somalia.

My greatest fear is that 10 years from now things will be worse than they are now and by a long shot. Look around the world in places were hatred is born early and it runs deep. Ireland, Israel. sri lanka, those conflicts have been intractable for decades if not centuries. I fear we are creating the framework for a new cold war. Hope i am wrong.

Holy shit.... *standing ovation*. Damned well put.

I have 4 kids that I want to see grow up not fearing where the next terrorist attack is going to come from. Terrorism is the epitomy of cowardice, and it's perpetrators in my views cease to have any rights as soon as they knowingly end the life of one innocent. Hard line? Yep and no apologies for it.

 

[Cherry]

Aren't you forgetting something?

Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought it was bin Laden.

The destruction of the Talaban is just the result of Bush having a temper tantrum for not handing over the "enemy".

Personally I think a lot of people in America got carried away with the blood lust of the whole thing and lost sight of the real target.

Mullah Mohammed Omar, called yesterday for "the destruction of America"

Interview

Mullah Omar says he will destroy US and scorns plans for 'evil' government

Regime's leader tries to dismiss military defeats

Jonathan Steele in Islamabad
Guardian

Friday November 16, 2001


The embattled Taliban leader, Mullah Mohammed Omar, called yesterday for "the destruction of America" and said he would never accept the government which the UN is trying to help put together for Afghanistan because it was made up of "evil-doers".

"The struggle for a broad-based government has been going on for the last 20 years but nothing came of it. We will not accept a government of evil-doers. We prefer death to being part of an evil government," he told the BBC Pashtu service.

"We will not accept a government of evil-doers. We prefer death to being part of an evil government."

"The current situation in Afghanistan is related to a greater cause - the destruction of America," Mullah Omar claimed,

Asked to clarify, he went on: "The plan is going ahead and, God willing, it is being implemented. It is a huge task which is beyond the will and comprehension of human beings. If God's help is with us, this will happen within a short period of time: keep in mind this prediction."

It was not a matter of weapons, he went on, when the questioner asked if he was talking about using nuclear, chemical or biological weapons against the United States. "We are hopeful for God's help and, God willing, America will fall to the ground," he said.



Don't be so naive, Pee Pee!

The Taliban sold Afghanistan to a bunch of Saudi henchmen ... their power is only derived from al Qaeda. We recognize the enemy in all of its disguises. The enemy is terrorists, in any shape or form ... as stated from the start.

 

[p_p_man]

Re: Aren't you forgetting something?

Don't be so naive, Pee Pee! The enemy is terrorists, in any shape or form ... as stated from the start.

The original enemy was bin Laden and even now at this stage proof that he was behind the WTC atrocities is still only party to a few Heads of Governments. Unless I've missed something.

True Bush said that America would destroy any harbingers of terrorists and terrorism and true he did ask the Talaban to hand over bin Laden.

That's a bit like the Islamics demanding the Catholics hand over the Pope. What Bush hadn't taken on board when he made his off the cuff statement (before he was gagged by others in his Administration) is that under the law of Islam, if you invite somebody into your tent, (or country in this case) then you are honour bound to protect that person whilst he remains under your roof.

It's not a nice social understanding. It's a hard and fast written law stated in the Koran.

Now to Islam followers all over the world their religion is not a matter of going to church every Sunday then carrying on with their own lives during the week, their religion is their code. It is more than a religion: it is a culture, a way of life, a set of rules by which they adhere to far more than most Christians adhere to their religion.

Bush by asking the impossible could have only expected one answer from the Taliban. And that's the answer he got.

Now let's assume Bush is cleverer than I think and let's say he knew what that answer would be and deliberately threatened the Taliban if they didn't hand over bin Laden. Something they couldn't do even if they wanted.

Wouldn't that be a great excuse to start a process of marching through the Middle East using Afghanistan as a springboard to other countries?

But let's give him the benefit of the doubt and say he is the fool I really think he is. By being a naive, untutored leader of a major world country he has started a process which more than likely is going to leave America with egg on her face.

But to keep things going with his own citizens he has to keep coming up with short, sharp jingoistic speeches, otherwise in the passage of time things will get forgotten.

Don't know about being naive but I know I can see further than the nose on my face.

 

[Guest]

Re: Re: Aren't you forgetting something?

The original enemy was bin Laden and even now at this stage proof that he was behind the WTC atrocities is still only party to a few Heads of Governments. Unless I've missed something.

So what? Why do we need to share shit with you ungrateful fuck? We’re doing the heavy lifting again you useless, feckless, ignorant, drunken piece of shit. We are winning the war, not you. Fuck you. Fuck you again. You’re the most boring, ignorant, dried-up, irritating, unfunny, stupid, moronic, short-sighted, biased, unthinking, one-trick pony on this board. Do us all a favor, get really drunk tomorrow night, walk around in downtown London and let one of those silly red double-decker buses run your sorry, wrinkled-up, lame, smelly, fat, loser ass over. You’ll be doing this board and the world a favor. Eat me, bitch.

True Bush said that America would destroy any harbingers of terrorists and terrorism and true he did ask the Talaban to hand over bin Laden.

Learn to spell you idiotic sod. It’s Taliban. Taliban. Practice makes perfect, you well-oiled analvalve.

That's a bit like the Islamics demanding the Catholics hand over the Pope. What Bush hadn't taken on board when he made his off the cuff statement (before he was gagged by others in his Administration) is that under the law of Islam, if you invite somebody into your tent, (or country in this case) then you are honour bound to protect that person whilst he remains under your roof.

Who gives a flying fuck about Islam you slobbering dolt? Fuck Islam if Islam aids terrorists. Bomb their asses for being shitty dressers. Bomb their asses for having bad breath. Fuck them. They are buddies with the human abortion that attacked us, so they, naturally must die if they don’t do what we say. And not only did they not even try to comply, they thumbed their noses at us, so double-dog fuck them. Their middle-aged backward assed cluster-fuck of a government deserves to be ground under the bootheel of American airpower for no better reason than the way they treat their women, Religion gives them no quarter you cumstain. I should expect you to understand this, though, since the best part of your brain ended up in your mother’s ass.

It's not a nice social understanding. It's a hard and fast written law stated in the Koran.

Hey…fuck the Koran. Fuck the bible. Fuck Buddha. Fuck Zeus. Fuck the God of the WWF, Vince McMahon. Fuck all Gods, and all religions. Religion is the reason we are in this mess. Religion is the reason the Jews and Palestinians can’t stop killing each other. These wife-beating addicted motherfuckers need to figure out that we are serious. I hope we keep bombing their asses until they can’t even remember what the fuck the Soviet Union ever was. I hope we bomb their asses until they all turn Jewish and have a mass circumcision. I hope we bomb their asses until they go so fucking crazy they hold democratic elections and vote Gloria Steinhem in as dictator for life.

Now to Islam followers all over the world their religion is not a matter of going to church every Sunday then carrying on with their own lives during the week, their religion is their code. It is more than a religion: it is a culture, a way of life, a set of rules by which they adhere to far more than most Christians adhere to their religion.

Oh, so now we’re back to bashing Christianity, eh, you feckless fucknozzle? Well since I don’t like religion that’s okay, but since your so high on Islam, why not take your non-stop diarrhea spewing piehole and march it over to opium poppy land and fight the great glorious last stand with Mullah “Oh a Camel’s penis poked my eye out” Omar, you sniveling whining bitch? You could join up with that American traitor and form the Great Anglo-American Misguided Fools and Idiots platoon. You and John Walker. I’m sure the Taliban would give you guys enough Vaseline and dried ratmeat to keep you happy until the bitter end. But since the U.S. military sucks so badly, (I mean we only took over the whole damn country in a little over a month, right) you probably wouldn’t get a nick, right? But wait, maybe one of our stray bombs might fall on your ass, and turn it to the consistency of a nice bloody oatmeal. At least we could always hope.

Bush by asking the impossible could have only expected one answer from the Taliban. And that's the answer he got.

Listen closely…Fuck the Taliban. Fistfuck the Taliban. You seem to be the only bleeding heart douche bag on earth that gives two shits and a pile of snot about the goddamned, cocksucking, Cro-Magnon loser Taliban. Fuck you and your Taliban. We don’t care…don’t you see? We want to kill them. Fucking kill them and let their god sort them out. Tag ‘em and Bag ‘em. Get it? Dipshit.

Now let's assume Bush is cleverer than I think and let's say he knew what that answer would be and deliberately threatened the Taliban if they didn't hand over bin Laden. Something they couldn't do even if they wanted.

They could have us come in and look for him. They knew where he was. The only reason you don’t get that is that your head is so far up your ass you need a windshield in your beer gut to find your Alzheimer’s medicine every night, you slowly cooling puddle of goatcum.

Wouldn't that be a great excuse to start a process of marching through the Middle East using Afghanistan as a springboard to other countries?

Fine, let’s go. Free oil for everyone, except that most of the countries we should be nuking don’t have any fucking oil sphincterbreath. Except Iraq…so yeah, what the hell we’re on a roll. Let’s go get us some Saddam. And no you don’t get any credit pp, loserbitch, we’ll do it all on our own, you magnificent troll. The thing that pisses you off is we’re winning, and you can’t stand it. Neener, fucking neener. Piss off wanker.

But let's give him the benefit of the doubt and say he is the fool I really think he is. By being a naive, untutored leader of a major world country he has started a process which more than likely is going to leave America with egg on her face.

Oh yes, big egg… we’re winning you blithering turdnibbler. WE ARE WINNING, and you can’t stand it. Take your peace pipe and dip it in astroglide and ram it up your hemorrhoid-puffed ass, sideways you flutesucker. We’ll take that egg and make us one big ass spanking, f-16/M-1/U.S. Marine Corps omelet, and you can’t have any. Wipe your chin you Neanderthal, you’re drooling near my omelet. *smack* on your bald head.

But to keep things going with his own citizens he has to keep coming up with short, sharp jingoistic speeches, otherwise in the passage of time things will get forgotten.

I’m trusting you to keep up your senseless, boring, repetitive, liberal, jealous, envious, pissed off, tiresome blather, so that the whole wide U. S. of A., stupid idiots that we are will remember what a fuck-up bush is. We thank you, we really do. With out a moron like you, spouting off like a supersoaker on LSD with your ignorant drivel, why we wouldn’t know what to think, now would we? Fucking hair lipped simpleton.

Don't know about being naive but I know I can see further than the nose on my face.

Duh. Good ending jerk-off.

Just ignore all that. I wasn’t in a good mood.

 

[Problem Child]

Oh, by the way, that was me in case you couldn't guess peepster. I was just joshin ya though. Really.

 

[p_p_man]

Oh, by the way, that was me in case you couldn't guess peepster. I was just joshin ya though. Really.

As if I could've thought otherwise...

 

[Problem Child]

I love that we can get along so well.

 

[Cherry]

GASP!

Oh dear, PC ... that was a little rash!

Anyhow, PeePee

There are stronger teachings in the Koran that do not support the strength of your "guest" argument.

One of peace and harmony ... Jihad as a search for betterment (not misery and death). The muslims do not condone what has been done in the name of Islam ... quite the opposite.

These are fanatics who protected Osama bin Laden for one reason alone ... he gave them power in Afghanistan.

You've been listening to too much propaganda, I'm afraid.

 

[Weird Harold]

With the American deaths and those of soldiers from the Northern Alliance by bombs from a B-52, just how much of the truth are we told about the capabilities of all these Hi-Tec weapons?

As someone who spent 21 years dealing with the aircraft protion of the guidance systems for these "smart" weapons, I can say that what youare being told is the truth. What you infer beyond what you are told is Where unrealistic expectations come from.

You wouldn't be surprised to find out that occasionally the computer controlled emmision system in your car will fail, nor that there is an occasional bug in the software on your personal computer. Why then are you surprised that there are occassional computer failures in smart weapons, or bugs in the programming of those smart weapons.

A mildly dyslexic spotter who reported or entered the coordinates for the bomb that went astray is far more likely than a failure of the bomb guidance. I strongly suspect that bomb went exactly where it was "told" to go -- just as your personal computer always does what it's programmed to do, even if that isn't what you want it to do.

 

[Guest]

P_P_Man using someone elses computer...

Copied from Weird Harold;s post

A mildly dyslexic spotter who reported or entered the coordinates for the bomb that went astray is far more likely than a failure of the bomb guidance.

Yes that makes sense...