When Real Life Expectation Cannot Meet the Dreams of the Altruists

[VinnyVeritas]

...

As part of the rule-making process, the EPA solicited comments on its proposal. One response came from the Alliance for Automotive Innovation (AAI), a trade organization that represents the Big Three automakers as well as Honda, Nissan, Toyota, and others. AAI and its members "share EPA's and the Biden administration's goals to accelerate the transition to zero-emission vehicles," the group wrote, but the rule is "neither reasonable nor achievable in the timeframe covered" and "based on many assumptions that are largely outside the control of either EPA or individual automakers." As the standards are written, the group "does not believe they can be met without substantially increasing the cost of vehicles, reducing consumer choice, and disadvantaging major portions of the United States population and territory."

Further, the newly proposed requirements are significantly more strict than the ones agreed to in 2021. AAI points out that while the 2021 agreement only sought 50 percent compliance, it also allowed the goal to be achieved with a combination of battery-powered all-electric vehicles as well as plug-in hybrids and fuel-cell electrics. The newly proposed rule would only allow battery-powered electrics. Meanwhile, only 5.8 percent of new cars purchased in 2022 were electric, requiring a more than tenfold increase in less than a decade.

The EPA's proposal "effectively assume that everything will go perfectly in the transformation" to E.V.s, AAI writes. But automakers already struggle to acquire the raw materials necessary to manufacture E.V. batteries; some regions of the country, even E.V.-friendly California, also lack the necessary electrical infrastructure to support so many new vehicles in need of regular charging.

The EPA apparently expects all of these problems to be solved in less than 10 years. "For perspective," AAI writes, "10 years is the time required to obtain the necessary permits for a mine in the United States. Once permitted, another ten years could elapse before the mine produces at capacity. Ten years is also close to the time required to bring 20 [megawatts] of power to a single location in the United States."

https://reason.com/2023/07/03/autom...-standards-neither-reasonable-nor-achievable/
(Libertarian)



Zero emissions would be great, but government cannot wave its magic wand (bully stick) and just make it so as if they were Jean-Luc Pickard ordering Tea, Earl Grey, Hot...

Government never looks past The Broken Window (Bastiat) to consider the ripple/butterfly effect and the unintended consequences of mandated and codified altruism. The Emperor might wish that everyone deem his new suit as splendid, but there is always going to be the one un-indoctrinated mind that says, "Hey, Buddy! You ain't got no clothes on!"

 

[Rotadom]

BDS.

 

[Chobham]

Those goals will never be met within the time frame allotted.

 

[VinnyVeritas]

I don't think the old goal of 50% could have been met in that time frame either.

Let the market rule and spend less money on an influencing campaign.

 

[BrightShinyGirl]

Electric vehicles are a stopgap solution for a world where where we’ve overbuilt the infrastructure for private cars and neglected public transit. While they’re more climate-friendly than gasoline cars, they’re still wasteful and deadly.

 

[DeluxAuto]

Electric vehicles are a stopgap solution for a world where where we’ve overbuilt the infrastructure for private cars and neglected public transit. While they’re more climate-friendly than gasoline cars, they’re still wasteful and deadly.

Bringing Logic and reason to their threads is like piercing a boar's nipples.

 

[BrightShinyGirl]

Bringing Logic and reason to their threads is like piercing a boar's nipples.

People get very emotional about their cars. Like gun owners, they don’t see the object as tool, but as a projection of their identity.

 

[Chobham]

I don't think the old goal of 50% could have been met in that time frame either.

Let the market rule and spend less money on an influencing campaign.

They can not mine enough raw materials to meet that goal. Even making the attempt is handing the Russians and Chinese a BIG welfare check at the US consumer's expense. This is what happens when you have a president bought and paid for by foreign powers.

 

[Wat_Tyler]

Vehicles are necessary to what I do, privately and professionally. ICEs make them work better - longer range, less muss, and still rather economical if not as much 5 years ago. And they are a Hell of a lot more efficient than last century.


Battery powered cars came and went 100 years ago. Around town, maybe. Out in the sticks? Not so much. Hybrids make sense. Electrics? Not much improvement over a horse.


And hot rods are still fun.

 

[John_von_Neumann]

They can not mine enough raw materials to meet that goal. Even making the attempt is handing the Russians and Chinese a BIG welfare check at the US consumer's expense. This is what happens when you have a president bought and paid for by foreign powers.

Typically, Ishmael fails to acknowledge that technology is not static, whenever it doesn't fit his political narrative. In fact, next generation electric motors may not require rare earth elements in their construction at all.

 

[HisArpy]

Vehicles are necessary to what I do, privately and professionally. ICEs make them work better - longer range, less muss, and still rather economical if not as much 5 years ago. And they are a Hell of a lot more efficient than last century.


Battery powered cars came and went 100 years ago. Around town, maybe. Out in the sticks? Not so much. Hybrids make sense. Electrics? Not much improvement over a horse.


And hot rods are still fun.

There are better power sources on the horizon than batteries which rely on strip mining the planet and destroying the environment.

Mass transportation is the solution for the weak minded who never leave home and expect everything to be magically delivered by the ecofriendly Amazon fairy.

 

[ll74]

There are better power sources on the horizon than batteries which rely on strip mining the planet and destroying the environment.

Mass transportation is the solution for the weak minded who never leave home and expect everything to be magically delivered by the ecofriendly Amazon fairy.

Old man yells at lawn

 

[John_von_Neumann]

There are better power sources on the horizon than batteries which rely on strip mining the planet and destroying the environment.

Remember that time you claimed solar photovoltaic cells worked by some mechanism other than absorbing photons? That was fun.

Mass transportation is the solution for the weak minded who never leave home and expect everything to be magically delivered by the ecofriendly Amazon fairy.

What's even the point of complaining about mass transit in this way?

 

[LLCox]

I wondered how there were ever going to be enough electric vehicles because there is not near enough of various needed metals.

 

[Rightguide]

People get very emotional about their cars. Like gun owners, they don’t see the object as tool, but as a projection of their identity.

You get emotional about the "climate Crisis" that doesn't exist in any form that can be addressed by human intervention or technology unless we want to go back and live as people did 200 years ago. You are a victim of an information campaign by social elites designed to extinguish freedom as we know it and solidify their control over humanity. You won't see them changing their lifestyles though.

 

[PaxNurgle]

Idiotic response, even by your abysmal standards.

Yes, The climate crisis is real and it may yet be solvable, but it will take efforts by all governments and people coming together. The goal is to solve it in a way that does not unnecessarily compromise the world economy, individual autonomy or consumer choices.

 

[Wat_Tyler]

There are better power sources on the horizon than batteries which rely on strip mining the planet and destroying the environment.

Mass transportation is the solution for the weak minded who never leave home and expect everything to be magically delivered by the ecofriendly Amazon fairy.

Sure, mass transportation. Wait! At my city house Back East, the bus stop near the house disappeared. Years ago. So now it's a bit of a hike to the next stop. Speaking of, good luck hanging on to a bike around here. And the city long ago disposed of all the stuff required to keep horse poop outta the storm sewers. Besides, have you priced feeding one of those fuckers? At least one can sell the lawn mower to finance part of his upkeep.

At the house Out West, the closet mass transportation is 30-some mile away. That's past the limits on timely bike or horse travel, but the Amish do it anyway. Except for the ones who have businesses and drive big pick-ups. I guess that Allah is good with that.

And if there are so many more efficient and electric vehicles running around compared to gasoline ones, and demand is down, why is it that gasoline is over half again more expensive than it was 5 years ago?

 

[Chobham]

Electric is fine for the commute driver...............that's it. And, of course, that's assuming that your electrical grid is up to snuff.

Glad that Wat brought up horses because it seems to me that these unelected, unaccountable, political appointee's have put the cart before the horse. Building out the electrical grid first would make a hell of a lot more sense than the way they've gone about it. Wind, solar, and hydro are NOT going to fill the demand that they're trying to put on the grid......period. And the silly bastards have made it close to impossible to build a nuclear plant, the only realistic alternative. As a matter of fact the deadline will have come and gone before anyone could get a permit to built a nuke plane let alone break ground.

 

[bijedi]

Sure, mass transportation. Wait! At my city house Back East, the bus stop near the house disappeared. Years ago. So now it's a bit of a hike to the next stop. Speaking of, good luck hanging on to a bike around here. And the city long ago disposed of all the stuff required to keep horse poop outta the storm sewers. Besides, have you priced feeding one of those fuckers? At least one can sell the lawn mower to finance part of his upkeep.

At the house Out West, the closet mass transportation is 30-some mile away. That's past the limits on timely bike or horse travel, but the Amish do it anyway. Except for the ones who have businesses and drive big pick-ups. I guess that Allah is good with that.

And if there are so many more efficient and electric vehicles running around compared to gasoline ones, and demand is down, why is it that gasoline is over half again more expensive than it was 5 years ago?

Not really sure where the horse comments are coming from. Most of the arguments I have heard from those who are proactive climate mitigation are arguing for increased R&D into low carbon alternatives, not a regression to high carbon animal alternatives.

The rest of your comment seems to be reinforcing the point that we have been underfunding mass transportation. That isn't argument against mass transportation in general, but rather an argument for increasing the funding so that is an actual alternative for more people. We obviously would need significantly more bus stops or bus alternatives before you would be able to consider mass transit, so why aren't you pressuring your local city, county, state and federal representatives to increase the investment in improving your local transit infrastructure.

Gas prices have increased for multiple reasons, mostly related to lack of refining capacity and increased global demand post-covid in addition to the manipulation of the oil supply by oil producing countries and the embargo on Russian oil due to their action in Ukraine.

 

[IrezumiKiss]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1676267071255252992

guess they're gonna have to build more lanes, huh?

they should just make the whole city one big-ass highway. that'll fix the problem.

 

[BrightShinyGirl]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1676267071255252992

guess they're gonna have to build more lanes, huh?

they should just make the whole city one big-ass highway. that'll fix the problem.

Widening roads always make traffic worse. The only thing that reduces traffic is providing alternatives to driving.

 

[DeluxAuto]

You get emotional about the "climate Crisis" that doesn't exist in any form that can be addressed by human intervention or technology unless we want to go back and live as people did 200 years ago. You are a victim of an information campaign by social elites designed to extinguish freedom as we know it and solidify their control over humanity. You won't see them changing their lifestyles though.

Climate change: World's hottest day since records began

The world's average temperature reached a new high on Monday 3 July, topping 17 degrees Celsius for the first time.

https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-66104822

Great timing of your dumb post.

 

[Chobham]

Not really sure where the horse comments are coming from. Most of the arguments I have heard from those who are proactive climate mitigation are arguing for increased R&D into low carbon alternatives, not a regression to high carbon animal alternatives.

The rest of your comment seems to be reinforcing the point that we have been underfunding mass transportation. That isn't argument against mass transportation in general, but rather an argument for increasing the funding so that is an actual alternative for more people. We obviously would need significantly more bus stops or bus alternatives before you would be able to consider mass transit, so why aren't you pressuring your local city, county, state and federal representatives to increase the investment in improving your local transit infrastructure.

Gas prices have increased for multiple reasons, mostly related to lack of refining capacity and increased global demand post-covid in addition to the manipulation of the oil supply by oil producing countries and the embargo on Russian oil due to their action in Ukraine.

Wat tends to be sarcastic, so take the horse reference that way.

Re. mass transportation. That only works in cities that were planned around that. Most cities that enjoyed growth after the automobile will never avail themselves to mass transit, at least not economically. It's a favored topic for many but for the most part it isn't going to work.

Re. gas prices. While all you say is true those issues can be remedied rather quickly. Shale oil is easy to refine and small refineries can be situated right in the fields, it's just a matter of permitting. Actually the entire issue is a matter of permitting. The trend towards EV's is going to continue in those places where they make sense, mandated quotas don't make sense. The population of the US is declining and has been for some time now (mass illegal immigration aside). This is going to further reduce the demand for refined product thereby taking pressure off the market. The need for petroleum products are not going to go away anytime soon, not in your lifetime, not in your children's, or your grandchildren's, possibly not in your great grandchildren's time. By the DOE estimates the US cannot reach a carbon neutral state until 2140. There are places that wind and solar aren't going to work, one of the reasons that Germany is firing up it's coal fired plants as fast as it can and France is restarting it's nuclear plants. Hydro is also location limited. And ALL of them come with their own environmental downside.

So while Wat was being sarcastic it was only to make a point. Without the technology and infrastructure to support these bureaucratic dreams of Utopia we could all end up energy crippled.

 

[VinnyVeritas]

Electric vehicles are a stopgap solution for a world where where we’ve overbuilt the infrastructure for private cars and neglected public transit. While they’re more climate-friendly than gasoline cars, they’re still wasteful and deadly.

Have you ever even seen Kansas? How are you going to design public transport for a place like that?

 

[VinnyVeritas]

I've experienced big city mass transit when in the military and later for my job.

That's some scary shit man! And the taxi drivers? They make DiNero look like a pussy with their Kamakazi driving!