Silencing the voices

[EmilyMiller]

Silencing the voices​

You have excellent ideas. You just need to work on execution. The good news is it’s a lot harder become creative than it is to learn how to write technically.

The secret is just to write and write and write.

 

[Voboy]

My solution is NOT to use beta readers.

I don't need someone to tell me whether my stories are good or not. I can figure that out for myself. The damage might already be done, OP, but I'm sure you'd have a better-developed writing style if you'd set out to develop it on your own. Just my opinion, and I mean no disrespect.

What to do now? I'm no fan of 750-word stories, but they're perfect for this kind of situation. Just write one, submit it, and see it get posted. Then adjust as needed based on what ACTUAL readers tell you.

Use beta readers if you must, but never forget: these are YOUR stories. You are the master of how the words flow. If you like that flow, so will someone else. So? Just write. If a beta reader makes a suggestion, feel free to piss all over it: they are not you, and this is not their story. It's yours.

Take ownership. Write. Then publish. Then rinse and repeat.

 

[dirk2024]

I am sure I am not the first one to face such a situation. Any suggestions on how I effectively tell the voices to fuck off?

I feel ya.

I was a long time reader that came here last spring with a fantasy story in my head and leaned on the AH to learn how to get it out of my head and put that down 'on paper'. I finally finished my first draft and gave it to a beta reader for his input. He read only half the story, and left me with an extensive critique. It was a valuable critique though, so I copied his comments and pasted them into the front part of the story so I could review them. I felt disappointed as it seemed like a huge thing to overcome. I shelved the story for a few months, but still worked on other follow-ups to the original. Plus I wrote other stories.

The trick for me has been at times forget it and leave it be, but still apply the useful comments on the other stories. As others here have said, don't stop writing. Just apply the lessons to new stories knowing that you'll come back to this one that's currently troubling you.

I haven't forgotten my 'baby'...my first story (even though its not 'done' and remains unpublished). I added a lot of imagery and backstory, something the original draft lacked. Its gone through two more beta readers, tweaked once, yet still isn't ready for publication as I haven't applied the comments from the last beta reader. She gave me good advice as well that I am currently trying to apply on other stories before I go back to my original story.

When you say, 'tell the voices to fuck off' I assume you're talking about your own considering we are our own worst critic. I have those too, and it is a battle. I fight them constantly by burying them with new stories, including the various writing excercises mentioned above. There are all kinds of video's on YouTube about writing, including these on 'showing vs telling' https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=showing+vs+telling+in+writing Perhaps you can find something there to help you as well.

Lastly, do you listen to music while writing? Youtube has lengthy video's that give you background music that may help with your voices as well.

 

[AwkwardlySet]

For some authors, receiving peer criticism is the best way to improve and to keep their writing enthusiasm and confidence. For some, it's the worst.

Anyway, keep in mind that no matter what feedback a beta reader gives you, no matter what kind of review you get on the forum, it's still a peer opinion. Nobody here is a writing giant. The feedback a peer gives you could be wrong, could be right, could be, and most often is, the mix of both.

Keep that in mind. And I say this with all the love and respect towards the people who put their time into offering feedback. I'm sure they are aware that their opinions can be wrong.

As a teacher, I can tell you that to get truly reliable feedback, the reviewer has to be on a whole different level of writing compared to you. Maybe that is so, I don't know. Maybe it isn't. I can't be the judge of that, as I'm a peer as well.

But as @Voboy said, it doesn't even matter if they are right in this sense or not. It's the readers whom you should focus on. They are the target audience for your story. If they think you're doing okay, then you're doing okay.

 

[lovecraft68]

The term thick skinned gets thrown around a lot here, but this is proof of why you need to have one. You can't let someone's insulting take on your work stop you from writing,

Other than take a little time away from it and also never deal with those beta readers again, the only other thing I'd think of is using this as fuck you motivation and show them they're wrong.

But I think that reaction has to be immediate and you're already scarred over this.

Maybe you're not cut out to put your work out there if it affects you to this degree.

 

[Actingup]

I hear the voice laughing at me and telling me "your shit is unreadable."

Now that we've dealt with the beta-reader aspect of this, I do want to thank @DEFCOM5 for being open and publicly vulnerable on the core issue. Yep, I feel like the above sometimes, including for every kick to the kerb that happens in 'real life'. It can't not affect your creativity or your self-confidence in other areas, and it can totally wipe you out for long periods. Hang in there. Take whatever's useful from whatever advice you can get about resilience, but above all (IMHO), try and allow the positive voices to come through as well (including the constructive parts of the constructive criticism you get from Beta-readers!). Life is for learning, and every obstacle overcome will put the laughing, mocking voice in your head back in its place. Self-doubt is healthy but it can also be destructive and crippling. Best of luck and hang in there.

 

[dirk2024]

The term thick skinned gets thrown around a lot here, but this is proof of why you need to have one. You can't let someone's insulting take on your work stop you from writing,

Other than take a little time away from it and also never deal with those beta readers again, the only other thing I'd think of is using this as fuck you motivation and show them they're wrong.

But I think that reaction has to be immediate and you're already scarred over this.

Maybe you're not cut out to put your work out there if it affects you to this degree.

From what I read from the previous posts, they didn't insult his work. They critiqued it. Then he added his voice in and absorbed it back as an insult. I doubt there is any issue using either of those gentlemen as a beta reader in the future.

 

[Actingup]

From what I read from the previous posts, they didn't insult his work. They critiqued it. Then he added his voice in and absorbed it back as an insult. I doubt there is any issue using either of those gentlemen as a beta reader in the future.

Absolutely. I'm sure that plenty of authors here have written anonymous reviews on academic papers that have recommended that a draft paper be rejected unless it's brought up to standard. Sometimes those reviews are malicious, but usually they are not - they are kindly meant. The job of the reviewer is to be critical. That can be tough to deal with as the author, but it's also the foundation of producing the best possible work.

 

[dirk2024]

For some authors, receiving peer criticism is the best way to improve and to keep their writing enthusiasm and confidence. For some, it's the worst.

Anyway, keep in mind that no matter what feedback a beta reader gives you, no matter what kind of review you get on the forum, it's still a peer opinion. Nobody here is a writing giant. The feedback a peer gives you could be wrong, could be right, could be, and most often is, the mix of both.

Keep that in mind. And I say this with all the love and respect towards the people who put their time into offering feedback. I'm sure they are aware that their opinions can be wrong.

As a teacher, I can tell you that to get truly reliable feedback, the reviewer has to be on a whole different level of writing compared to you. Maybe that is so, I don't know. Maybe it isn't. I can't be the judge of that, as I'm a peer as well.

But as @Voboy said, it doesn't even matter if they are right in this sense or not. It's the readers whom you should focus on. They are the target audience for your story. If they think you're doing okay, then you're doing okay.

However, aren't (in this case) AH beta-readers also erotica readers? They are also part of the target audience.

 

[alohadave]

Now that we've dealt with the beta-reader aspect of this, I do want to thank @DEFCOM5 for being open and publicly vulnerable on the core issue. Yep, I feel like the above sometimes, including for every kick to the kerb that happens in 'real life'. It can't not affect your creativity or your self-confidence in other areas, and it can totally wipe you out for long periods. Hang in there.

Anyone familiar with me will know that I've had the exact same thoughts as @DEFCOM5, and I've started more than one thread about my feelings.

I don't have any helpful advice. I stopped posting stories for nearly a year, though I worked sporadically on a couple WIPs. The one I just posted I feel isn't really any better than earlier work I've made. But I feel like I had to put it out there anyway, because maybe I'm not as bad as I tell myself that I am.

The confusing thing is that readers seem to like the work, and my stories are generally scored well. This sets up a condition where your self-doubt sees the response cynically and there is this conflict. You don't think your work is good, but others do. Who is right? Who is wrong? Am I a bad writer, or am I just so self-critical that I can't accept my work?

Then there is the comparison factor. I read a lot here, and I've seen it all. Absolute dregs and sublime stories. I compare myself to all of them, and usually find myself lacking. And that is a recipe for quitting. Lovecraft mentioned thick skin, but I think that it's not really directed in the right place. Having a thick skin against your own self-criticism is important to develop. You are your own worst critic, and nothing anything anyone says cuts you harder than what you tell yourself.

 

[lovecraft68]

From what I read from the previous posts, they didn't insult his work. They critiqued it. Then he added his voice in and absorbed it back as an insult. I doubt there is any issue using either of those gentlemen as a beta reader in the future.

I wasn't aware there were previous posts but now that I checked on some of the other posts, this makes more sense and confirms something I'd previously wondered.

 

[lovecraft68]

Anyone familiar with me will know that I've had the exact same thoughts as @DEFCOM5, and I've started more than one thread about my feelings.

I don't have any helpful advice. I stopped posting stories for nearly a year, though I worked sporadically on a couple WIPs. The one I just posted I feel isn't really any better than earlier work I've made. But I feel like I had to put it out there anyway, because maybe I'm not as bad as I tell myself that I am.

The confusing thing is that readers seem to like the work, and my stories are generally scored well. This sets up a condition where your self-doubt sees the response cynically and there is this conflict. You don't think your work is good, but others do. Who is right? Who is wrong? Am I a bad writer, or am I just so self-critical that I can't accept my work?

Then there is the comparison factor. I read a lot here, and I've seen it all. Absolute dregs and sublime stories. I compare myself to all of them, and usually find myself lacking. And that is a recipe for quitting. Lovecraft mentioned thick skin, but I think that it's not really directed in the right place. Having a thick skin against your own self-criticism is important to develop. You are your own worst critic, and nothing anything anyone says cuts you harder than what you tell yourself.

The readers are who count, they are the masses we try to appeal to. A handful of authors here don't matter, a couple of beta readers don't matter. How did the story fare with readership does.

Example, this is the most recent comment I've received



They didn't like it. Why am I not bothered? Because this is the story the comment is on



I'm sure there's a few other negative opinions in the comments but look at the tale of the tape, should I care?

 

[Erozetta]

You don't think your work is good, but others do. Who is right? Who is wrong? Am I a bad writer, or am I just so self-critical that I can't accept my work?

Both can be true, and both can be false.

You can be an entertaining author to the readers and a poor technical author to yourself. It doesn't mean that your writing is entertaining to everyone and it doesn't mean your writing is technically lacking for everyone.


(None of the below is directed at you specifically, but in writing/writers in general.)

Part of the issue with creative works is that good is highly subjective on a singular basis of one reader and one writer at a time.

Some writers might see brilliant techniques you didn't even know existed, so you don't see it when looking at your own works. They might also see errors in technique you didn't know were errors, which may further your own feelings of inferiority by pointing it out. But if you didn't know it existed, how could you know it needed to be fixed?

One of the biggest mistakes I've seen people make is taking critique as absolute. It's a suggestion. It can only ever be a suggestion. What you write is yours. What people suggest may improve what you wrote or it may completely miss the mark you intended to portray. You're the only one who knows that.

Trust yourself, but listen to what the criticism is and see if it's a thing you want to correct or not. Technically wrong doesn't necessarily mean it's wrong for the story. Technically correct doesn't always make for the best reading. Be true to yourself and your idea and trust the readers.

 

[MrHereWriting]

Aftes being told by 2 beta readers (who have written stories I respect) that my story was unreadable, I have not been able to write anything.
I tried yesterday to avoid grading but I could not write 2 sentences without deleting them. So I have not written a word in 10 days. I have had stories in my head but that is where they are. The reason is that anytime I put something together, I hear the voice laughing at me and telling me "your shit is unreadable."

I am sure I am not the first one to face such a situation. Any suggestions on how I effectively tell the voices to fuck off?

To be clear, this is not author's block. I have plenty of ideas in my head. I just cannot get past the idea that what I write is shit will end up being mocked. I know intellectually that this makes no sense but emotionally, I cannot shut them down.

Stop writing or stop feeling sorry for yourself.

If you have problems outside of writing that make you feel this way, you're not going to find the answers here.

 

[Rambling_Chantrix]

Aftes being told by 2 beta readers (who have written stories I respect) that my story was unreadable, I have not been able to write anything.
I tried yesterday to avoid grading but I could not write 2 sentences without deleting them. So I have not written a word in 10 days. I have had stories in my head but that is where they are. The reason is that anytime I put something together, I hear the voice laughing at me and telling me "your shit is unreadable."

I am sure I am not the first one to face such a situation. Any suggestions on how I effectively tell the voices to fuck off?

To be clear, this is not author's block. I have plenty of ideas in my head. I just cannot get past the idea that what I write is shit will end up being mocked. I know intellectually that this makes no sense but emotionally, I cannot shut them down.

Hey.

First of all I wanna say good job clarifying what's happening over the course of this thread. I think a lot of people got stuck on the assumed critique of the beta readers in question (for which I don't actually see textual evidence in the quoted post). Glad the beta readers got their worries assuaged. Wild to see some of the folks coming out of the woodwork warning you away from beta readers, as though beta readers might 'warp' your artistic vision if you're not careful.

The good news is, whether you seek further beta assistance or not, I think the 'solution' is to remind yourself why you write. To fall back in love with the process. Reread something you really like. Watch something that inspires you. Revisit some of the positive comments you've received on your other stories. Feel good feelings. Drink some water, make sure you've had a hearty meal and you're sleeping enough. That might sound patronizing but I say it as someone who often needs those reminders when I'm spiraling about something.

And then choose love.

"You need a thicker skin" is being said a lot here but it's not really true. What's hurting you isn't external. It's internal. Thicker skin just makes it harder for external care to permeate the barrier and reach you. Don't harden. Become softer.

I can offer more advice/examples around this theme if you want, but let me make one thing clear: I believe in you.

If you want to write, you can. You will.

Last tool I have to offer is this video about Kronk's New Groove. This may sound like a shitpost but I genuinely think this is one of the best videos about why we make art that's out there. Choose love. Make art that you care about making. Good luck!

 

[Djmac1031]

One of the biggest mistakes I've seen people make is taking critique as absolute. It's a suggestion. It can only ever be a suggestion. What you write is yours.

Dead on.

I've made it a point to stress to each and every author I've ever proofread / edited for that my suggestions are exactly that: Suggestions. They are not beholden to change a damn thing.

Do i think my suggestion would improve their story? Of course, otherwise why make it.

Do i get upset if they reject my suggestion? Not at all. Because it's their story, not mine.

 

[Statius]

Aftes being told by 2 beta readers (who have written stories I respect) that my story was unreadable, I have not been able to write anything.
I tried yesterday to avoid grading but I could not write 2 sentences without deleting them. So I have not written a word in 10 days. I have had stories in my head but that is where they are. The reason is that anytime I put something together, I hear the voice laughing at me and telling me "your shit is unreadable."

I am sure I am not the first one to face such a situation. Any suggestions on how I effectively tell the voices to fuck off?

To be clear, this is not author's block. I have plenty of ideas in my head. I just cannot get past the idea that what I write is shit will end up being mocked. I know intellectually that this makes no sense but emotionally, I cannot shut them down.

@MillieDynamite made the point. Your stats are really good. However if you want to improve, here's advice from a mediocre writer, me. My new method is this:

Put a skeleton on a page; words to the story you want to tell, things that point in the direction you want to go; set mood, tone, a scene. My current WIP I started with 500 hundred words. I walked away for a day or two to let it crystalize in my head. Went back, reread it, saw what was crap, poorly said, too wordy, not wordy enough. I worked one paragraph at a time. Those 500 words in three days turned to about 850 good words. One paragraph I had trouble with I sent to a friend here who gave an opinion; a day later it was fixed. Move on to the next sequence. No word limit, just a complete sequence. But for me taking a break and walking away for a few days is doing wonders for my writing.

 

[dirk2024]

But for me taking a break and walking away for a few days is doing wonders for my writing.

Yep. As a friend put it to me, 'go outside, touch some grass, smell the air'

 

[Erozetta]

Dead on.

I've made it a point to stress to each and every author I've ever proofread / edited for that my suggestions are exactly that: Suggestions. They are not beholden to change a damn thing.

Do i think my suggestion would improve their story? Of course, otherwise why make it.

Do i get upset if they reject my suggestion? Not at all. Because it's their story, not mine.

100%

I always stress that. "This is your work. Any suggestions I make are simply my opinion and are biased towards my own interests and likes. Take what you like and discard anything that doesn't work for you, even if that's every single suggestion I make. No harm, no foul."

 

[EmilyMiller]

Do i get upset if they reject my suggestion? Not at all. Because it's their story, not mine.

Nix 19

 

[AwkwardlySet]

However, aren't (in this case) AH beta-readers also erotica readers? They are also part of the target audience.

They most certainly are not. The typical Lit reader is nothing like the typical AH author.

The typical reader cares mostly about content, and if you tell the story half decently, you will get favorable reactions and ratings. It's us, authors, and especially AH authors who mostly fret about writing well and storytelling.

I don't think I was ever a typical reader as I did require story to be more than just its content. But, since becoming an author and learning some things about writing, my "rating" criteria have grown exponentially.

I can barely read many of the stories I had previoisly enjoyed.

 

[Voboy]

Wild to see some of the folks coming out of the woodwork warning you away from beta readers, as though beta readers might 'warp' your artistic vision if you're not careful.

As someone who posted that, it's not so much that I think the betas are warping his vision.

In this case, the betas have prevented him from publishing at all. The betas have made him disown his work. They've made his confidence crash. They've convinced him he sucks.

I think, in this case, the betas are a problem for this poster. I don't think that's true in every case. But this OP needs confidence in his (her?) own words, a sense of what they have to offer to the readers. These betas have prevented that from happening. Hence, my advice that he should avoid them. They're not helpful to this OP.

Incidentally, I'm sure those betas are reading this thread, and I bet they feel lousy. I hope they don't! This isn't their "fault." They didn't know what effect their words would have on this OP, and I hope they can continue to deliver honesty to the people who ask them to.

 

[DEFCOM5]

Thank you to all the authors who have contributed to this thread and provided advices to help me. This is greatly appreciated.

Again, I want to reiterate that the voices I mentioned are MINE. They are not my beta readers. As someone smarter than me said, they hit a sore spot without knowing it, like hugging someone post surgery and pressing on the wound.
I offer my deepest and most sincere apologies to @iwatchus and @TheRedLantern for having hurt their feeling or worse, implied that they hurt me in purpose. I never had the intention to suggest such a thing. So again SORRY.

I know the emphasis is on me to solve this issue. Thank you for all the tips and suggestions.

 

[TheRedLantern]

I know the emphasis is on me to solve this issue. Thank you for all the tips and suggestions.

If you want me to go into more detail about my feedback, I would be happy to give you some time for that.

 

[cw5523729]

Wow, this thread took quite the turn and was a wild ride after the initial post