Silencing the voices

[iwatchus]

There have been very, VERY few times a beta readers suggestion has completely altered the course of my story. And even then it was more of a "I'm trying to decide between A and B and the beta reader swayed me towards B."

Most beta reader feedback consists of pointing out typos, clunky run on sentences and over used adjectives.

That said, if I feel a beta readers suggestions have been helpful enough to actually shape the story, having an influence over plot and / or characters, I'm more than happy to credit them with such.

Some of the most useful feedback I have received is I don’t know what this section means or why did she do that or similar. It points out where I failed to communicate my vision to the reader. It’s a hard part of reading your own work. I absolutely know why every character does everything. I can’t always see where I need more guides for the readers

 

[AwkwardlySet]

I’d suggest yours is the outlier opinion here.

Oh, absolutely. I'm an outlier in most things here.


@Djmac1031 Well, if the beta reader is just proofreading to see if you messed up the grammar, or if you switched character names and such, then that's barely more than what MS Word spelling tools or Grammarly basic offer. What I was talking about is most certainly not about that kind of feedback.

I was talking about significant input, such as the examples I mentioned, or say, someone saying you've way too much exposition at the start of the story, and that you should break it up with some dialogue and action. That's structural advice on an already written story, and that counts almost as having a co-author.
Being an author of a story isn't just typing its words; it's designing its structure, story arcs, plot, character development, etc. Any advice received on such things, for me, means having a co-author. Once again, I'm aware that I'm likely an outlier in this sense.

 

[StillStunned]

I agree it can be okay in very small dosages, especially if you do it in the bouncing ideas stage, and not when you've actually written the story.

But say, a peer beta reader tells you that your main character lacks depth and that you should add some background, some motive for your character acting a certain way, or that the chemistry between your characters doesn't work, and that you should introduce some history and maybe conflict or obstacle between them. Say you accept the advice as sound, and you change your story accordingly.
How's that fully your own story then? I don't even think it's a particularly good way to learn writing. It's too much of a crutch.

Have you ever read a book on fiction editing? Because that's what editors do all the time.

I've discussed bits and bobs of stories with other authors here during writing. The biggest change I've ever made came from discussions @Devinter, when I was writing The Walled Garden. What started out as a single scene grew into three successive but parallel scenes that ramped up the tension and led to the ultimate outcome, and it's a structure I've used in other stories since (Annie's Inhibition Removal Therapy and Sweet Dreams, Poppy, for instance).

But I don't think it was an outright comment from Devinter - more an idea that sprang from a prolonged back and forth. However it came about, though, it was a brilliant solution and made the story much, much better than my original idea.

 

[Voboy]

I personally find that bizarre.

I know @Voboy said something adjacent to that (and then clarified further) and he’s one of our best and - I hope - a friend.

As any of my beta readers will confirm, I pick and chose what feedback to act on and how. I think the only time I can recall taking feedback verbatim is when I’m writing someone else’s character and the creator says “they would have said or done X and not Y.” I always act on that and in the way the creator asks me to. Otherwise it’s solely my decision what feedback to act on and how.

We're all products of our environment. I haven't used beta readers, don't use beta readers, and won't use beta readers; it's a technique that makes no sense to me.

BUT!

I'm well aware not everyone is like me. I get that some people like to use them. I did (and do) feel in this case, with this OP, that his reliance on betas was harmful to his development as a writer.

Maybe not his technical development; I wouldn't know about that. But as everyone here knows, a writer needs more than just technical chops to post a story successfully. They also need the confidence to believe in their story, the conviction that they can tell it better than anyone else, and the willingness to throw that shit out there in front of thousands of readers.

If you think about it, that's a pretty big deal. Not everyone is cut out for it; I think that's what posters like @lovecraft68 have often said about a thicker skin. There are things you can do to develop the technical chops, including using beta readers, but I don't think the betas helped this particular OP develop the Other Thing, the confidence needed. I wonder, often, whether that confidence is a nature thing or a nurture thing.

 

[Voboy]

Oh, absolutely. I'm an outlier in most things here.


@Djmac1031 Well, if the beta reader is just proofreading to see if you messed up the grammar, or if you switched character names and such, then that's barely more than what MS Word spelling tools or Grammarly basic offer. What I was talking about is most certainly not about that kind of feedback.

I was talking about significant input, such as the examples I mentioned, or say, someone saying you've way too much exposition at the start of the story, and that you should break it up with some dialogue and action. That's structural advice on an already written story, and that counts almost as having a co-author.
Being an author of a story isn't just typing its words; it's designing its structure, story arcs, plot, character development, etc. Any advice received on such things, for me, means having a co-author. Once again, I'm aware that I'm likely an outlier in this sense.

For me, I agree that anything that further removes the writer from the words is generally to be avoided. In my mind that means beta readers, editors, AI, even spellcheck. I use none of those things. I want to be certain that everything I submit here is MINE, that I am responsible for everything posted under my name. I am also unlikely to post a thread here asking other AHers how things should be done, how to phrase things, what word to use, or what category I should place a story into.

But I'm also aware that not everyone thinks that way.

 

[Djmac1031]

Any advice received on such things, for me, means having a co-author. Once again, I'm aware that I'm likely an outlier in this sense.

Its all good, we can discuss opposing points of views like civilized people I'd like to think.

Ive spoken multiple times about @EmilyMiller 's influence that inspired The Devil And Angel Em and all the stories set in that universe that followed.

To me, I'd rather have written that story and acknowledge her contributions than not have ever had the inspiration to write it at all.

 

[EmilyMiller]

In my mind that means beta readers, editors, AI, even spellcheck. I use none of those things. I want to be certain that everything I submit here is MINE, that I am responsible for everything posted under my name.

It’s a little unreasonable to bracket AI with beta reading, and I don’t think that’s a contraversial opinion.

With the one exception of including another author’s characters in my story (where I’m happy to - for instance - include dialog that the other author has suggested, generally also making them co-author), I a) decide whether or not to address something a reviewer has flagged, and b) I rewrite in my own words, not theirs. I often fix a problem in a totally different way to what might have been suggested. It’s still 100% my work.

 

[DEFCOM5]

As the OP (meaning what?), let me clarify a thing or two:

I'm well aware not everyone is like me. I get that some people like to use them. I did (and do) feel in this case, with this OP, that his reliance on betas was harmful to his development as a writer.

I do not think it is the case. I say that they helped me recalibrate my perception of my writing skills.
I had high hope that what I asked them to read on their free time (20K story) was decent (not good) and it was not. It needs quite a bit of work.
That is the disconnect that cut me deep. I do believe that the feedback will help me in the long term.

If you think about it, that's a pretty big deal. Not everyone is cut out for it; I think that's what posters like @lovecraft68 have often said about a thicker skin. There are things you can do to develop the technical chops, including using beta readers, but I don't think the betas helped this particular OP develop the Other Thing, the confidence needed. I wonder, often, whether that confidence is a nature thing or a nurture thing.

It is not the betas fault if they hit my own insecurities. How would they know that my inner voices would jump at the occasion and become so loud that I stopped writing?
My self-confidence was weak and probably a little delusional. It was destined to be shattered.
If I would have come to the betas saying "here, this is a potentially good story but it needs help", I would have been fine.
Instead, I approached with "Here is a decent story, let me know if it can be good."
I could not see the fact that the story was a WIP, I thought it was a finished good.
So it is not the betas fault. It is my own issues.
Yes, is the Other Thing damaged? But it would have been damaged too, have I published the story and gotten wrecked in the comments and votes (Assuming people would read it which is a huge assumptions)

Having said that, if/when I ever publish anything else, it will go directly to publishing without stopping at the beta review case. Why? Not because I think betas are not great help but because, I would not want to submit anyone to read it knowing that they have to finish it.

Hopefully, this is not coming as a "woe is me" message. It is not. It is the time of the year where finding time and space to write smut is a little more difficult than usual so not being able to write is not affecting my mental health.

 

[EmilyMiller]

I think some of this comes down to two things. First does an author see utility in getting feedback from others or not. Personally I don’t need a reviewer to have a Pulitzer in order to value their thoughts.

Second, what sort of person are you. A communitarian or a lone wolf. Either is valid, neither are cheating. People are different.

I write a lot for my work. It’s technical documents, and it’s second nature for me to get drafts reviewed by colleagues. I think this transfers to my creative writing.

 

[EmilyMiller]

An obvious statement is that all but a fraction of mainstream novels published in the last fifty years (and probably many before that) have been through some sort of review (proof reading, editing, beta reading, and other variants). Anyone who claims that any of these makes the work no longer the author’s needs to also claim that the bulk of modern literature is similarly compromised. Which makes no sense to me.

I think - with some people on this thread - there is a misconception about the actual realities of considering feedback review. It makes little sense to opine on what people think this process is like as opposed to what it is actually like. And of course it can be different for different people.

 

[YmaOHyd]

I agree it can be okay in very small dosages, especially if you do it in the bouncing ideas stage, and not when you've actually written the story.

But say, a peer beta reader tells you that your main character lacks depth and that you should add some background, some motive for your character acting a certain way, or that the chemistry between your characters doesn't work, and that you should introduce some history and maybe conflict or obstacle between them. Say you accept the advice as sound, and you change your story accordingly.
How's that fully your own story then? I don't even think it's a particularly good way to learn writing. It's too much of a crutch.

I have a WIP where I think this exact thing happened. I was talking with @PennyThompson about a story idea, and in the course of that conversation she convinced me that the POV character for the story, and in effect what the whole story was about, was wrong. So because of feedback I got from a peer in the pre-alpha stage, the whole work is totally different. The story will be better (I hope, and if it's not it's because of my limited skill rather than because of the concept change) for it.

But it's still my story. My characters, my scenarios, my creative output. My ownership isn't diminished because someone else nudged me onto a different track. I'm still the writer, and it's my choice whether to accept that or follow my original plan.

 

[Voboy]

I think - with some people on this thread - there is a misconception about the actual realities of considering feedback review. It makes little sense to opine on what people think this process is like as opposed to what it is actually like. And of course it can be different for different people.

I couldn't agree more. There are several reasons I don't write commercially anymore, and that's one of them. I worked very well with my editor, and I was very happy for her to help me because, after all, it was her money.

But I never really liked the dynamic. After experiencing the process, I decided it wasn't really how I wanted to write.

 

[MillieDynamite]

I agree with you, @EmilyMiller, but taking advice from others isn't my strong point.

An obvious statement is that all but a fraction of mainstream novels published in the last fifty years (and probably many before that) have been through some sort of review (proof reading, editing, beta reading, and other variants). Anyone who claims that any of these makes the work no longer the author’s needs to also claim that the bulk of modern literature is similarly compromised. Which makes no sense to me.

I think - with some people on this thread - there is a misconception about the actual realities of considering feedback review. It makes little sense to opine on what people think this process is like as opposed to what it is actually like. And of course it can be different for different people.

 

[Voboy]

As the OP (meaning what?), let me clarify a thing or two:

I do not think it is the case.

Okay. But be fair: you posted this thread, so you should have expected some of us would have our own points of view on your dilemma. I call them like I see them. EVERYTHING you posted early on suggested to me that these peoples' feedback had killed your confidence, and subsequent posts aside? I wouldn't ignore that that was your initial complaint.

You've hopefully gotten some comfort here, and I assume peoples' replies in this thread have been helpful. They might have helped you come to some new realizations. But your initial understanding of what happened, I think, is something we should consider.

You don't know your work wasn't good. You just know that a couple readers didn't fancy it. I'd still encourage you to get back on the horse with something short, something YOURS. Post it and get it out. See what happens! Learn by doing.

 

[iwatchus]

s the OP (meaning what?)

Original Poster

I also think I could not have effectively used a beta reader until I had progressed a certain distance in my writing. As I mentioned earlier, I published 40-some stories with only occasional review from my wife before using my first peer beta reader. I learned more from her at that point, somewhat because it made things click for me. I prefer to have my stores run through a beta reader now when possible.

 

[AwkwardlySet]

I have a WIP where I think this exact thing happened. I was talking with @PennyThompson about a story idea, and in the course of that conversation she convinced me that the POV character for the story, and in effect what the whole story was about, was wrong. So because of feedback I got from a peer in the pre-alpha stage, the whole work is totally different. The story will be better (I hope, and if it's not it's because of my limited skill rather than because of the concept change) for it.

But it's still my story. My characters, my scenarios, my creative output. My ownership isn't diminished because someone else nudged me onto a different track. I'm still the writer, and it's my choice whether to accept that or follow my original plan.

Well, we'll have to agree to disagree there. I'm obviously saying this based on limited info you offered.

 

[Five_Inch_Heels]

Once you change direction significantly based on feedback of another author, it really isn't fully your story any more.

A few word changes here and there aren't really an issue.


Beta Readers and others giving feedback are telling you how they would write it.

 

[yowser]

Once you change direction significantly based on feedback of another author, it really isn't fully your story any more.

A few word changes here and there aren't really an issue.


Beta Readers and others giving feedback are telling you how they would write it.

I think it is potentially far more complicated than this. Is asking for advice from a friend about handling a difficult situation, then acting on their advice no longer your own actions? If a therapist suggests some different approaches for you, and you try them out, is this then not your own choice and agency?

Beta reading can be understood in a lot of different ways, and given human variances, it is going to be all over the map. Some level of trust is essential, and I cannot imagine using a beta reader without having some sense of who they are, what their critical strengths are and what I am likely to get out of the interaction.

Also, for someone seeking a beta read, I would suggest that you indicate clearly what you would like, what areas you want addressed, pose the questions you have about your own work, and maybe even indicate the level of roughness you are willing to accept. But no matter what is suggested, I'd say as the creator, you have a responsibility to make it your own work, one way or another. And that certainly can happen with beta-advice.

Like all human relations, the complexity can take many forms, and high levels of awareness on all fronts will likely provide the best outcome.

 

[EmilyMiller]

I couldn't agree more. There are several reasons I don't write commercially anymore, and that's one of them. I worked very well with my editor, and I was very happy for her to help me because, after all, it was her money.

But I never really liked the dynamic. After experiencing the process, I decided it wasn't really how I wanted to write.

And I totally respect that decision.

 

[lovecraft68]

We're all products of our environment. I haven't used beta readers, don't use beta readers, and won't use beta readers; it's a technique that makes no sense to me.

BUT!

I'm well aware not everyone is like me. I get that some people like to use them. I did (and do) feel in this case, with this OP, that his reliance on betas was harmful to his development as a writer.

Maybe not his technical development; I wouldn't know about that. But as everyone here knows, a writer needs more than just technical chops to post a story successfully. They also need the confidence to believe in their story, the conviction that they can tell it better than anyone else, and the willingness to throw that shit out there in front of thousands of readers.

If you think about it, that's a pretty big deal. Not everyone is cut out for it; I think that's what posters like @lovecraft68 have often said about a thicker skin. There are things you can do to develop the technical chops, including using beta readers, but I don't think the betas helped this particular OP develop the Other Thing, the confidence needed. I wonder, often, whether that confidence is a nature thing or a nurture thing.

I've never used them for anything here either. I let the story fly and the chips fall where they may.

A beta reader, even one who is a fellow author you respect is one reader. They are one reader with their own opinion and few and far between are the people who can keep their personal feelings and tastes out of that opinion.

But a story published here is seen by many people, especially in the bigger categories. You're going to lose out on all those potential readers because a person had some issues with your work?

Counterproductive is what that is.

I respect everyone here as a fellow author. We all put effort into our work; we're all doing the same thing and it's not always easy. We all deal with the same good and bad here on the same playing field so there's a common bond.

But beyond that I think too many people get hyper focused on what another author, especially a forum member thinks. If an AH member tells me they think my story sucks, I'm not going to write it, or if one fawns over something should I think its just that good because so and so liked it?

I think when the term write for yourself gets bandied about, that this is an instance of it. Sure. we want people to like it, but that's all people. I don't elevate the opinion of another author and neither should anyone else, nor should they let a beta reader affect them to the degree the OP mentioned in the opening post.

As for confidence, you have it or you don't. Apathy can work, fuck you, I'll show you (My mantra much of my time here) can work. But if you can't find anything that does, this isn't for you because you'll just make yourself miserable.

 

[EmilyMiller]

Some helpful stuff on this thread. And some sheer buffoonery. Welcome to AH I guess .

 

[YmaOHyd]

Once you change direction significantly based on feedback of another author, it really isn't fully your story any more.

Is Annie Hall not Woody Allen's movie? Does The Thin Red Line belong to the interns who did the test screenings, or to Terrence Malick?

 

[DEFCOM5]

Okay. But be fair: you posted this thread, so you should have expected some of us would have our own points of view on your dilemma. I call them like I see them. EVERYTHING you posted early on suggested to me that these peoples' feedback had killed your confidence, and subsequent posts aside? I wouldn't ignore that that was your initial complaint.

@Voboy , I do respect your opinion.

Yes the feedback did damage the confidence. But may be the confidence was not realistic.
I will explain using an analogy from a field I understand. Let's say that you buy a financial asset and it goes up in value. So you buy another one and another one. They all keep on rising. So you think that you are good at it. What you do not realize is that a rising tide lift all the boats. Suddenly the tide goes out and you see that you were swimming naked. Your trades are not working and that you were just lucky, not good.
This happened to me. I published and got some views and ratings. I did not realize it was the category more than the stories. Then I got a couple of stories beta read and the feedback was good idea, should work on the techniques. So I got cocky. I did not realize the tide was rising me. I decide to write this 20K story and ask two people to look at it. And the feedback was the tide coming out. Not only did the technique needed help (which I assumed) but the story itself did not really work. I realized I was swimming naked. Like a trader for which all trades go bad and ignore their portfolio, I stopped writing.
So am I glad that I got the feedback. Yes because I needed to realize the rising tide issue.
Do I wish it did not hurt as much? You bet but I am who I am.

You've hopefully gotten some comfort here, and I assume peoples' replies in this thread have been helpful. They might have helped you come to some new realizations. But your initial understanding of what happened, I think, is something we should consider.

I really appreciate the support I received from AH publicly and privately. People do really care here and it brought me some solace.
My initial reaction is like the trader that keeps on trying new trades only to have them all fail and they hear their own voices saying, "so you think that you can trade, idiot? Leave it to the pros"
I experience being on the other side, trying to get them rebuild confidence.

You don't know your work wasn't good. You just know that a couple readers didn't fancy it. I'd still encourage you to get back on the horse with something short, something YOURS. Post it and get it out. See what happens! Learn by doing.

I have a story in mind, start to finish, which is short, may be 1000 words or something. I goal/hope/wish that i can put it on paper before the end of the year. I will hope no illusion it will be any good but if the ratings and comments sucks, I can tell the voices "This is what I expect."

 

[MillieDynamite]

If you use beta readers, you should have a set of questions you want them to answer. Pace, momentum, does the story drag at any point? Is the dialogue clear? What do you like or dislike? They shouldn't be left open to try to change your story or think they have that right.

 

[StillStunned]

Once you change direction significantly based on feedback of another author, it really isn't fully your story any more.

A few word changes here and there aren't really an issue.


Beta Readers and others giving feedback are telling you how they would write it.

If I write a reimagining of a published story, is it fully my story? If I write a story inspired by something I overhear a stranger say, is it fully my story? If I write a story based on historical events and historical characters, is it fully my story? If I change a draft because I read another story or watch a movie and it gives me an idea for a plot twist, is it fully my story? If I read a writing tip here in the AH and it helps me to improve my style, is it fully story?

A quick glance at my WIP folder tells me that ideas are the easy part of writing. Sitting down, putting in the effort and finishing the damned thing, that's what the real accomplishment of writing is. Any ideas that you pick up along the way are just part of the process, regardless of where they come from. You finish writing a story, unless you've plagiarised sections of text, it's fully your story.