Sexuality Question

[Flybynite1892]

Happy Sunday everyone! I wanted to get your take on how to categorize some stuff since I'm still new(ish) here. So far, I've published only in the BDSM category, and my stories have all done OK there. Kink is definitely my thing, and those pieces seem to be finding readers who appreciate that sort of stuff.

All those stories have involved heterosexual couples, specifically with a femdom flavor. I'm bi though, and definitely enjoy some crossdressing as well, and so I've been thinking about writing something exploring those themes too. There'd still be a lot of kink involved; that doesn't seem to be negotiable for how I'm wired. My question is if it would be better to slot that sort of story in the gay category or keep it in BDSM? I know there aren't any nailed down rules about categories here (which I really do appreciate), but I was just curious if anyone had any insight into how this type of story might do in either genre.

And ultimately, of course, I'll just write it and send it off to wherever, but I just wanted to see. Thanks in advance!

 

[alohadave]

I'm bi though, and definitely enjoy some crossdressing as well, and so I've been thinking about writing something exploring those themes too. There'd still be a lot of kink involved; that doesn't seem to be negotiable for how I'm wired. My question is if it would be better to slot that sort of story in the gay category or keep it in BDSM? I know there aren't any nailed down rules about categories here (which I really do appreciate), but I was just curious if anyone had any insight into how this type of story might do in either genre.

What is the main thrust of the story? Is it gay/bi, that happens to have BDSM elements to it? Or is it gay/bi people engaging in BDSM, where that is the point of the story?

 

[Flybynite1892]

What is the main thrust of the story? Is it gay/bi, that happens to have BDSM elements to it? Or is it gay/bi people engaging in BDSM, where that is the point of the story?

I think it would probably be the latter, more gay/bi people engaging in BDSM stuff. Which might answer my question lol. I'm thinking of putting it in BDSM and then using tags to make it clear it's got queer themes.

 

[OffNSFW]

Think of it less like "If my story has features from multiple categories, how do I choose?" Unless your story is utterly, mercenarily one dimensional (and I don't think any of us writes that way!), there's always going to be multiple answers. It's not the most illuminating way to go about finding the right category.

Think of it more like, "Whose tastes am I ultimately playing to? Which of these audiences do I think the main features of this story are directed at? Does this belong on the same shelf as the typical story in this category? Who do I want to find this?"

Alternatively, "If I put this story in such-and-such category, is there anything in it that the typical reader of this category isn't looking for, or might even object to?"

Cishet male readers especially seem not to like bisexual interaction between male characters, which is one thing to consider. Though BDSM-oriented readers may have more of an open mind.

I've struggled with this myself, mostly early on, so this is learned through experience.

 

[Flybynite1892]

Think of it less like "If my story has features from multiple categories, how do I choose?" Unless your story is utterly, mercenarily one dimensional (and I don't think any of us writes that way!), there's always going to be multiple answers. It's not the most illuminating way to go about finding the right category.

Think of it more like, "Whose tastes am I ultimately playing to? Which of these audiences do I think the main features of this story are directed at? Does this belong on the same shelf as the typical story in this category? Who do I want to find this?"

Alternatively, "If I put this story in such-and-such category, is there anything in it that the typical reader of this category isn't looking for, or might even object to?"

Cishet male readers especially seem not to like bisexual interaction between male characters, which is one thing to consider. Though BDSM-oriented readers may have more of an open mind.

I've struggled with this myself, mostly early on, so this is learned through experience.

Thanks for this. And yeah, thinking about it as "will this be a major turnoff for some people" makes a lot of sense to me.

Your point about cishet male readers disliking bi stuff between men is a good one too. I think it cuts to the heart of the whole question because unfortunately that does seem to be something I've seen, both in literature and in real life. I've found the BDSM crowd to be a little more open-minded though, just because we're all into stuff that might be seen as unconventional sometimes.

 

[ElectricBlue]

Paging @SimonDoom Your services are required in the lobby. There's a chap here needs advice on "What category is best for this?"

@Flybynite1892 Simon has a good spiel on this topic, with some very good general advice - but I'm too lazy to find one of his posts. It boils down to the primary erotic theme, and that's nine times out of ten the best place to put it.

But as others have pointed out, there's an undercurrent of homophobia on Lit, which means you need to be fearless sometimes, and protect and champion bisexuality, knowing that some male readers aren't as open-minded as they could be. I don't know much about BDSM nor femdom, so my practical advice is limited, but Simon's general advice might be useful.

 

[KeithD]

There's a specific crossdressing category here. The website doesn't categorize bisexuality well. As long as it includes MM, I put it in the GM category, as that's where I have a reader base and because Lit. offers no better place for bi. I tried Group and bi material (or at least mine) was not well received there.

 

[TheLobster]

But as others have pointed out, there's an undercurrent of homophobia on Lit,

That's an unfair characterization of a large swath of Lit readers.

By the exact same logic, there is an undercurrent of "incestophobia" (is that a word?) here, since brushing against the topic basically earns the story a spot in I/T. But implying such a thing is silly: we just treat incest as a particular kink that has detractors who don't appreciate it (much) when it peeks out of its niche.

MM couplings are similar in this regard, and the Gay Male category is where they are expected to be found. These are both "trump themes," to use the wording of a popular How-To article, because they are common anti-kinks. There's nothing wrong with having them. Indeed, I'd think this would be the last place where I'd need to say no to kink-shaming

 

[Flybynite1892]

That's an unfair characterization of a large swath of Lit readers.

By the exact same logic, there is an undercurrent of "incestophobia" (is that a word?) here, since brushing against the topic basically earns the story a spot in I/T. But implying such a thing is silly: we just treat incest as a particular kink that has detractors who don't appreciate it (much) when it peeks out of its niche.

MM couplings are similar in this regard, and the Gay Male category is where they are expected to be found. These are both "trump themes," to use the wording of a popular How-To article, because they are common anti-kinks. There's nothing wrong with having them. Indeed, I'd think this would be the last place where I'd need to say no to kink-shaming

I guess maybe that was really my question, was what are the "trump themes," and is a MM storyline - or a crossdressing storyline - more of a trump theme than BDSM stuff. I know it's an inexact science, but I guess I wasn't sure what the bigger dealbreaker might be for people.

 

[KeithD]

I guess maybe that was really my question, was what are the "trump themes," and is a MM storyline - or a crossdressing storyline - more of a trump theme than BDSM stuff. I know it's an inexact science, but I guess I wasn't sure what the bigger dealbreaker might be for people.

Yes, both MM and Crossdressing trump over BDSM here. BDSM is accepted as a subcategory over most of the collection. MM and Crossdressing aren't.

And, as I noted, Lit provides no good home for bisexual, so you have to look to other aspects of the story. I struggled with this with the story I submitted today. It has more FM scenes in it than I usually provide, so I thought for a while to put it in Group. But it does have MM and MMF scenes, so I ultimately chose GM from long experience in categorizing here.

 

[Flybynite1892]

Yes, both MM and Crossdressing trump over BDSM here. BDSM is accepted as a subcategory over most of the collection. MM and Crossdressing aren't.

And, as I noted, Lit provides no good home for bisexual, so you have to look to other aspects of the story. I struggled with this with the story I submitted today. It has more FM scenes in it than I usually provide, so I thought for a while to put it in Group. But it does have MM and MMF scenes, so I ultimately chose GM from long experience in categorizing here.

Thanks, this is super helpful! I'm not really worried about it, but have you ever gotten hateful comments on a story with MM stuff? I realize we all get shitty remarks but was just wondering.

 

[KeithD]

Thanks, this is super helpful! I'm not really worried about it, but have you ever gotten hateful comments on a story with MM stuff? I realize we all get shitty remarks but was just wondering.

I get very few gender-preference hateful comments on my GM stories. Don't think there have been more than I could count on my fingers out of more than a thousand GM stories across my accounts here.

 

[ElectricBlue]

That's an unfair characterization of a large swath of Lit readers.

I said an undercurrent, not a large undercurrent. If I didn't think it was there - based on evidence from comments and scores getting marked down in some of my own stories/chapters, as well as comments seen in forums - I wouldn't have said it.

Even in Erotic Horror, MM gives readers the shudders. For years my pride of place for my lowest ever score was a chapter where the son fucks dad while mum watches. By every piece of Lit Logic, you'd think the incest would counter-act the homosexuality, but no. It got to the point that I put a squick warning in the comments of the previous chapter, to protect the fragile. Having said that, it's no longer my lower score, so maybe after ten years the tide's turning.

 

[Bramblethorn]

That's an unfair characterization of a large swath of Lit readers.

By the exact same logic, there is an undercurrent of "incestophobia" (is that a word?) here, since brushing against the topic basically earns the story a spot in I/T. But implying such a thing is silly: we just treat incest as a particular kink that has detractors who don't appreciate it (much) when it peeks out of its niche.

Some people are offended by mixed-race relationships, but we don't pander to them by telling authors that anything with an interracial relationship ought to go in IR. If we did, that would be racist, and the fact that we also treat Incest that way would not make it less racist.

IRL, incest mostly means the rape and exploitation of children. While Literotica versions don't reflect that reality, it's understandable that many readers bring RL baggage to the table and would rather not encounter the topic unexpectedly.

If stories about consensual adult male-male sex are being treated as equally triggering as stories about incest, then yes, that is homophobic. Some readers might be just as bothered by the mention of GM sex as by incest, but that doesn't mean those two reactions are equally reasonable or that we ought to give them equal consideration.

These are both "trump themes," to use the wording of a popular How-To article, because they are common anti-kinks. There's nothing wrong with having them. Indeed, I'd think this would be the last place where I'd need to say no to kink-shaming

As you say, these are anti-kinks, not kinks. The "kink-shaming" bit is where people take the stance that GM is so heinous it needs to be treated like peanuts in a school cafeteria, not the bit where people push back against it.

 

[Britva415]

That's an unfair characterization of a large swath of Lit readers.

Who exactly is this swath you're referring to as being unfairly characterized? Why should you, me or anyone at all take the "undercurrent" comments as referring to anyone other than the actual homophobes on Lit?

Those comments are about the people who actually flame MM content with homophobic comments. Nobody was tarring and feathering people who simply don't like MM stories as a matter of personal proclivity and taste and calling them homophobic. Was this who you meant?

 

[KeithD]

I want my MM and MMF stories to be read by the broadest base of interested readers here, so I put them where readers interested in MM and MMF stories would naturally look for them. They don't look for them across the board on Literotica. Literotica is obviously (to any shopping reader) a gay tolerant but not gay "folded in" story site. There are one-and-a-half GM categories here, one lesbian, and no bi. There are a whole bunch of categories predominated by straight stories. I don't see myself as any sort of Gay Pride campaigner forcing readers to be equal in their story shopping. And I'm sure as hell not going to write "don't read if" disclaimers in notes in front of my stories.

 

[Kumquatqueen]

IME, the GM category is very tolerant of BDSM content, BDSM readers may on average be very deterred by m/m content, but there's way more of them, so you may reach more of the fans of gay BDSM that way, if you don't mind the downvotes. And get more comments, good and bad - the GM lot don't comment much.

If the fact that the other person is male is part of the kink, I'd suggest BDSM or Fetish.

I figure that anyone actually interested in queer kink figures out how to search the site pretty quick, rather than relying only on categories and titles!

 

[Zandrite]

I think it would probably be the latter, more gay/bi people engaging in BDSM stuff. Which might answer my question lol. I'm thinking of putting it in BDSM and then using tags to make it clear it's got queer themes.

tags! tags! very good idea to have as many as you can, in my opinion. let your story find its readers. good luck with your endeavours