Sex, Bondage and Religion

[monster666]

Here we are on the deviant's board. And deviants we are - some of us might be a tad ashamed, some of us indifferent, and others proud proud deviants.

Okay, so when we die, do we get into heaven?

Does god listen to our prayers the same as the prayers of the less-deviant variety?

Bondage is cool in a BDSM context. What other kinds of bondages do we accept?

Are religious paradigms different forms of bondage?

Are vanilla morals different forms of bondage?

How do we balance traditional ethical values with the various components of BDSM, which seem to fly in the face of those values?

Paradigms of all kinds can be a form of bondage. I find I can't just chuck all my old values at once. I have to examine them all, and modify or replace each of them on an as-needed basis. Some are easy. Some aren't. I was brought up with the notion that marriage is a life-long commitment. I am now married for the second time - to a vanilla woman. There's a happily-ever-after paradigm buster, yet I am not ready to give up the ideal or the marriage.

So, how do others balance their sex lives, their faiths, and still be free of unwanted bondage?

 

[ltlwitch]

thought provoking

This is a very interesting topic you have brought up Monster, I look forward to reading what others have to say on this subject.

As of now, I am not sure if I understand your question fully, so I have nothing to contribute from my own experiences as of now. I will check in often though to see how it goes!

Blessings~
~ltlwitch~

 

[WriterDom]

There are christian bdsm websites and e groups believe it or not. They don't talk about Female Domme Male sub. Guess they are headed for hell. Here's a few bible quotes from one of the sites.

"Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence"
(1 Timothy 2:11-12)

It is better to dwell in the wilderness,than with a contentious and an angry woman (in Proverbs 21:19)." boy, that is true.

1 Corinthians 11: 8 - 9
For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man.
Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.

Ephesians 5:23 For the husband is the head* of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and He is the savior of the body.

Ask Todd what's cool within a marriage. You may get an interesting answer.

I have a theory about what causes homosexuality, but I haven't thought about a past life model for bdsm. Good question though.

 

[sexy-girl]

I have a theory about what causes homosexuality, but I haven't thought about a past life model for bdsm. Good question though.

do tell please


i for one am comfortable with my sexuality and believing i would go to heaven if such a place exists ... i think god believes in love happiness and helping people ... i equal all those things in my own way

 

[Ebonyfire]

but of course

There are christian bdsm websites and e groups believe it or not. They don't talk about Female Domme Male sub. Guess they are headed for hell. Here's a few bible quotes from one of the sites.

"Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence"
(1 Timothy 2:11-12)

It is better to dwell in the wilderness,than with a contentious and an angry woman (in Proverbs 21:19)." boy, that is true.

1 Corinthians 11: 8 - 9
For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man.
Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.

Ephesians 5:23 For the husband is the head* of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and He is the savior of the body.

Ask Todd what's cool within a marriage. You may get an interesting answer.

I have a theory about what causes homosexuality, but I haven't thought about a past life model for bdsm. Good question though.

Who wrote this stuff?

MEN. Need I say more?

Ebony

 

[WriterDom]

Re: but of course

Who wrote this stuff?

MEN. Need I say more?

Ebony

I'm not endorsing their ideas. I just thought it fit the discussion. I don't want to be chased by a thousand Dommes with strap-ons down the road.

 

[SpectreT]

In some cases, the very religious may hold a relationship with God similar to what a submissive has for their Dom. I, myself have used the following phrases, only later realizing how they sound like I'm casting God in the role of the perfect Dom:

"God never hands you anything you can't hold."

"Why pray to God for an end to your pain, or the strength to endure it? Who do you think sent that pain? God knows your strength; he's just showing you what it's for."

Are we going to heaven? Are we moral and ethical beings who deal with each other justly and fairly? Do we love? Do we do our best, every day to do what's right? Do we trust ourselves to know what's right?

If the answers to those questions is "yes", then I believe you will, indeed, be heading to Heaven in the afterlife.

I also believe Heaven's got a really cool Dungeon.

 

[morninggirl5]

There are christian bdsm websites and e groups believe it or not. They don't talk about Female Domme Male sub. Guess they are headed for hell. Here's a few bible quotes from one of the sites.

"Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence"
(1 Timothy 2:11-12)

It is better to dwell in the wilderness,than with a contentious and an angry woman (in Proverbs 21:19)." boy, that is true.

1 Corinthians 11: 8 - 9
For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man.
Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.

Ephesians 5:23 For the husband is the head* of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and He is the savior of the body.

Ask Todd what's cool within a marriage. You may get an interesting answer.

I recognize all of those verses, got me into trouble more than once with one pastor when i was a kid. He interpreted many of those passages literally. His daughter and i were friends and he really didn't like my outspokenness and willingness to question things. Since my father wasn't involved, i was supposed to go to my grandfather or other male family member and they would bring it up if they thought it was valid. Looking back on him now, he would never have considered himself a Dom, but from what i saw in his home the name would fit.


It's really easy for me to see a D/s relationship particularly being very acceptable to many Christian groups.

 

[monster666]

Ah, that is a big part of the question, isn't it? When we embark on adventures that flaunt our departure from our old paradigms - are we as concerned with "right" as we are the adventure? I think so - I hope so. But openly deviant sexuality such as BDSM and group scenes? These things certainly aren't going to be endorsed by any mainstream religion I am aware of. Not that I am worried about what churches think one iota. I am more curious about how other people cope with their own ethical issues as they grow into BDSM. I'd bet a good number of us were raised in religious households. I wonder what kind of issues people have struggled with as a result of religious or ethical conflicts with BDSM. I'll bet there have been some hum-dingers.

Do we do our best, every day to do what's right? Do we trust ourselves to know what's right?

 

[CarolineOh]

I call myself a "recovering Catholic", which is meant seriously, and not merely as a glib comment.
I love the majesty of the Church, the beauty of the litany, and the security of it's ancient rituals.
But I have come to reject all notions of intercessionaries between myself and the Lord. I believe in the precepts of Jesus Christ, and that by living those ideals, not to perfection, but to the best of my abilities, I will achieve the peace of God's love.
I do not believe that my personal sexual mores put me in any jeopardy of losing God's love, as long as they do not violate the simple principle of the Golden Rule. So my involvement in bdsm or bisexuality do not trouble me spiritually.

 

[monster666]

Beautiful. I've resolved a lot in a similar manner myself.

I call myself a "recovering Catholic", which is meant seriously, and not merely as a glib comment.
I love the majesty of the Church, the beauty of the litany, and the security of it's ancient rituals.
But I have come to reject all notions of intercessionaries between myself and the Lord. I believe in the precepts of Jesus Christ, and that by living those ideals, not to perfection, but to the best of my abilities, I will achieve the peace of God's love.
I do not believe that my personal sexual mores put me in any jeopardy of losing God's love, as long as they do not violate the simple principle of the Golden Rule. So my involvement in bdsm or bisexuality do not trouble me spiritually.

 

[SpectreT]

I'm a recovering Catholic, too....

And remember, Christ himself rebelled against his own religion; it cost him his life, but he railed against priests handing down laws for people to live by, for collecting money in exchange for God's Blessings (in the form of sacrificial animals), and any of a long list of abuses the Catholic Church could easily be accused of.

 

[CarolineOh]

Re: I'm a recovering Catholic, too....

And remember, Christ himself rebelled against his own religion; it cost him his life, but he railed against priests handing down laws for people to live by, for collecting money in exchange for God's Blessings (in the form of sacrificial animals), and any of a long list of abuses the Catholic Church could easily be accused of.

I wonder, with those of us who were raised as Catholics, if there is any connection between being raised with the rituals of the Church, and the ritualized aspects of bdsm. I think there is a need for ritual in our lifes, and I wonder if bdsm is a way for many of us to fulfill that need.

 

[RisiaSkye]

Religion, guilt, sex, morality. Warning: Long Post

Okay, so when we die, do we get into heaven?

Does god listen to our prayers the same as the prayers of the less-deviant variety?

If you believe in the Judeo-Christian God, don't you also believe that He hears all prayers?

Personally, I think organized religion is an unacceptable kind of enslavement to accept in my own life, though I don't mean to imply any negative judgement about anyone else's beliefs.
It just seems to me than when it comes to religious sects, while the ideas may be good ones, the power structure which forms around it corrupts both the people and the ideas. There's a huge difference between having faith and having religion.

And I don't believe for one second that any force powerful enough to create and guide all of life and the wonders of the universe(s?) is so petty as to condemn the creation for seeking love and mutual satisfaction.

Bondage is cool in a BDSM context. What other kinds of bondages do we accept?

Are religious paradigms different forms of bondage?

Absolutely, and they're a kind of bondage that we're often placed into without our consent--or even our full awareness. Like most people in the U.S., I was raised from early childhood in a Judeo-Christian church model. The values and basic assumptions about life that I learned were all taught through that religious filter, even though I didn't yet have a big enough view of the world to know that there were other views of life and deity available.

So, I was conditioned into religion before I had a choice, and I had to later *choose* to sift through that conditioning, deciding which parts to keep and which parts to eliminate. Even those parts (like the idea that homosexuality is somehow "wrong") that I find ridiculous and contradictory to my own feelings of faith and divinity don't cease to exist--I have to consciously choose not to let them dictate who I am and what I feel.

Are vanilla morals different forms of bondage?

I'm not sure what you mean by this, as "morals" mean many different things to different people.

I *do* think, however, that I'm a very moral person. My moral code may not be the absolute same as that of the majority, but that doesn't make it any less (or more) valid. And only a more informed observer, like the Divine, has a right to pass judgement on whether that morality is the "right" or "wrong" one.

How do we balance traditional ethical values with the various components of BDSM, which seem to fly in the face of those values?

It depends how we define "traditional" and "ethical."

For purposes of conversation, I use the Aristotelian distinction between ethics and morals: Ethics are codes of conduct; morals are absolute judgements about "right" and "wrong." Which do you really mean here?

Actually, in terms of religion, the difference between ethics and morality is really a semantic issue in any case; for pretty much every possible set of ethical and/or moral values one can name, there is a tradition of long-standing somewhere in the world which ascribes to it. We are far more diverse in our values than the U.S.'s emphasis on Christianity would suggest.

But...assuming that by "traditional ethical values" you mean "the most popular cultural values of U.S. Christians," I don't think there's necessarily any contradiction between the two. It's all a matter of how one chooses to focus their attention, which parts of the theological framework we keep in view.

Service of another is praised in the Christian context; even Mary Magdalene finds salvation in the love and service of her benevolent "leader," Jesus. Skillful, just, and loving guidance (read: Dominance) of others is also valued in this context; King Solomon is exemplified in the Bible for his ability to weild power with authority and fairness to the benefit of all. (And, he had hundreds of wives and concubines, which doesn't seem to have prevented him from being seen as a paragon of virtue.)

And, in the Bible, deviance is not the mark of damnation. The martyrdom of the deviant is what marked the Romans, Philistines, and Babylonians as against God at different points in the Book. Even the Old Testament God of hellfire didn't punish deviance with nearly the severity He reserved for doubt and dishonesty; His worst judgements befell those who disobeyed his clear and direct order to stay humble before the divine. The loss of Eden because of eating from the Tree of Knowledge isn't about sex. Adam and Eve invented "sin" by attempting to know the face of God--by trying to Know more than humans are capable of understanding. The "knowledge" they sought and were punished for wasn't sex, it was usurping the Divine's judgement, thereby overreaching the capacities of humans and creating guilt, a mistake we continue to create; ergo, religious dogma posturing as Divinely dictated morality.

The Bible is a document about holding reverent and submitting to a greater force, an unknowable power/knowledge/understanding. The text was written by men and thus reflects the political and social desires of men as much as their faith, but when viewed as an abstraction, there is nothing inherently against its teachings about Dommes or msubs--even though the text itself emphasizes female submission to male power.

I see nothing in BDSM which is necessarily at odds with the basic premise and values of Christianity, and much which is very much in the same spirit.

Personally, I practice a version of Wicca. I do so because it is private and individual in nature, it emphasizes introspection and communication as ways to improve one's spirit and connection to divinity, and avoids convoluted and/or rigid dogma. Where the Bible spends a lot of time laying down laws and segregating men from women (and drawing divisions between *lots* of groups), I choose to see all of life and its energies as a delicate balance in which all are necessary and serve purposes.

As I don't believe us capable of apprehending (in any sense) the "face of God," I find it laughable that we would presume to lay down the law as if (insert sect here) has the one-and-only true word. Such mythology is a fiction made to appease the ego and curiosity of humans; I don't feel for one second that God (in whatever form that takes) has any need or desire to get involved in the kind of nonsense that makes for sectarianism and Holy war. Why, if you can make a galazy, would you choose to make arbitrary rules? It makes no sense; the divine mystery doesn't make rules, it makes life. In the face of our own vast ignorance and incompetence at being divine, we make rules--they give us something distracting to do, a way to live that seems constructive and mollifies our fears about death, and a way to avoid acknowledging all we cannot know, do, or be.

So, I choose to live my life in recognition of my own vast ignorance of and reverence for the divine spark which generates life. I try to be a creator rather than a destroyer, a friend rather than an exploiter, and a person of faith and love rather than one of rules and religion. I do not pretend to be right in this; I just acknowledge it as an effort to live in celebration of life rather than in fear of it.

 

[monster666]

Re: Religion, guilt, sex, morality. Warning: Long Post

Beautifully put, Risia. I didn't want to quote your whole post, but it really is a beauty. It displays a great sense of tolerance which is a very cool thing to find among people of faith.

I try to be a creator rather than a destroyer, a friend rather than an exploiter, and a person of faith and love rather than one of rules and religion. I do not pretend to be right in this; I just acknowledge it as an effort to live in celebration of life rather than in fear of it.

 

[Ebonyfire]

Re: Re: but of course

I'm not endorsing their ideas. I just thought it fit the discussion. I don't want to be chased by a thousand Dommes with strap-ons down the road.

Naw, I would not dream of chasing you , WD! Besides, there aren't a thousand Dommes on Lit. And I never move fast unless I am driving a big ole car! Too spoiled, uh, I mean lazy!

I never said you endorsed their ideas. But many men and women do believe that stuff. I am not one to mess with other's beliefs. As long as they leave me alone, I am content.

I personally subscribe to the view that organized religion "is the opium of the masses", and "Hell is other people."

Ebony

 

[Guest]

Spirituality is as much or more of my being as my BDSM faceted relationships. My Creator is all embracing without judgement. I don't think you must compartmentalize, in order to be involved in BDSM and religion. But then again, I don't view BDSM as a lifestyle. I view it as part of my existence, just as my spirit is another part.

Great thread.

 

[SpectreT]

Re: Re: I'm a recovering Catholic, too....

I wonder, with those of us who were raised as Catholics, if there is any connection between being raised with the rituals of the Church, and the ritualized aspects of bdsm. I think there is a need for ritual in our lifes, and I wonder if bdsm is a way for many of us to fulfill that need.

It's possible that that may be a part of it.

Not just the rituals, though. The imagery, the culture. We've sinned. We need penance. To save time, we combine the two.

nah.

too armchair, pop-psychology.

I'm just thankful that my relationship with The Chruch has nothing to do with my relationship with God. If I had those issues to deal with, too, I'd be in the loony bin in a wet-pack by morning.

 

[SpectreT]

There's a difference between having Faith and having Religion, all right.

And my own faith is that life is here, life is inherently good, and justice is not mine, nor judgement, nor even law. I simply do my best every day to be worthy of myself; to be able to look in a mirror without shame and guilt, whatever anyone else thinks of me, my desires, or some of the things in the bottom of my sock drawer.

When I'm dead, I'll face judgement for my life; until then, I just keep on breathing. Keep on being me. It'll take care of itself in its own time.

 

[Sweetwood]

And what does that have to do with bdsm?

A man had a dream. He dreamt he was invited to preview heaven and hell.

First he was led into a room with a sign HELL over the door , in which many people who were obviously very hungry sat around a large table, on which a large pot of soup sat. Everyone around the table was equipped with a spoon that had a six foot long handle.

Try as they might none of them was able to get the spoons into their mouths. They were all lamenting their starvation.

Next the man was led into another room with a sign over the door HEAVEN. In this room many people, who were obviously very hungry sat around a large table, on which a large pot of soup sat. Everyone around the table was equipped with a spoon that had a six foot long handle.

Lo and behold, everyone in this room fed someone else sitting at least six feet away from them.

Now, I ask you, WHAT ON EARTH has this to do with bdsm?

Nothing at all.

Sweetwood

 

[CeceliaSkye]

"God never hands you anything you can't hold."

I really like that, thankyou..

For me submission has always had a spiritual quality to it..
In many spiritual paths.. the seeker submits to the divine...
That feeling of surrendering to one I love,, is one of the most powerful feelings I have ever experiened...

 

[bad kitty]

Does god listen to our prayers the same as the prayers of the less-deviant variety?
Absolutely

How do we balance traditional ethical values with the various components of BDSM, which seem to fly in the face of those values?
The way i see it is all sins are equal and we all sin... so i try and pick and choose my sins Kinda like when you are a kid and you way what is worth getting in trouble for. Most of my desires and fantasies all fit ok within my beliefs, but some don't and they may stay fantasies or be fulfilled one day. Guess i am rambling a bit here and probably am making absolutely no sense LOL

Paradigms of all kinds can be a form of bondage. I find I can't just chuck all my old values at once. I have to examine them all, and modify or replace each of them on an as-needed basis. Some are easy. Some aren't. I was brought up with the notion that marriage is a life-long commitment. I am now married for the second time - to a vanilla woman. There's a happily-ever-after paradigm buster, yet I am not ready to give up the ideal or the marriage.
i hear ya here, and iTA. i do the same with regards to evalutating values. i think everyone should keep their beliefs and values under scrutiny. i put my beliefs adn values under more examinations than i do anything else, basically because i believe they are the most important part of your being. i never accept what i am told as being truth, i have to research it and find it all out for myself (which has allowed me to learn many HARD lessons). i am very imperfect and my ideas are flawed everyday, but the beauty of it is each day is different adn i can see them all in a different light allowing meto weed out the most rediculous beliefs.

 

[bad kitty]

WD can you give me some of the links You found please? It does sound interesting. LOVE the av BTW

There are christian bdsm websites and e groups believe it or not. They don't talk about Female Domme Male sub. Guess they are headed for hell. Here's a few bible quotes from one of the sites.

"Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence"
(1 Timothy 2:11-12)

It is better to dwell in the wilderness,than with a contentious and an angry woman (in Proverbs 21:19)." boy, that is true.

1 Corinthians 11: 8 - 9
For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man.
Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.

Ephesians 5:23 For the husband is the head* of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and He is the savior of the body.

Ask Todd what's cool within a marriage. You may get an interesting answer.

I have a theory about what causes homosexuality, but I haven't thought about a past life model for bdsm. Good question though.

 

[RisiaSkye]

Thanks, Monster. Sorry for the ramble. Hey, at least you can tell that I took your questions seriously, right?

 

[monster666]

Well, it's that "without judgement" part I still have a difficult time with. The no judgement concept is not what's been ground into me since I was a little guy. However, I don't think kinky sex is going to be as big an issue on judgement day as all those people I keep flipping off on the highway. Or that caustic remark I made to my wife when I was feeling pressure about something totally unrelated to whatever she was saying. Or my desire to nuetron bomb the entire middle east. Or worst of all, that person I didn't help who really needed it.

These things all amount to less than charity on my part, and I know they are wrong. It's the unjust things I do with venom that worry me now; not the ones I do with love. And for me, desire for BDSM comes from love and trust of my partner.

Spirituality is as much or more of my being as my BDSM faceted relationships. My Creator is all embracing without judgement. I don't think you must compartmentalize, in order to be involved in BDSM and religion. But then again, I don't view BDSM as a lifestyle. I view it as part of my existence, just as my spirit is another part.

Great thread.