Sex as Sacrament

[Black_Bird]

Do you think of sex as being holy? Can sex be an expression of devotion to the divine?

Modern religious dogma tends to say, "no," when it comes to these types of questions. Supression and guilt tends to condition us to believe that such a thing is not possible and yet, for thousands of years before the current religious institutions came into being, sex was sacrament. Perhaps books such as "The Song of Solomon" deserve more recognition then what they recieve.

 

[Calamity Jane]

IMO, the reason the church made it 'bad' is because according to them, humans are not animals. We're supposed to aspire to be better than the base creatures and therefore suppress our animal drives. Sex is one big time animalistic drive!

By the same token, it used to be considered holy because we used to recognize that we're no better or worse than the other animals that inhabit the planet. We indulged in carnal pleasures without guilt because it never occurred to us that an act that brings life into the world could possibly be a bad thing.

Do I, personally, see sex as holy? I think it can be a near holy experience, but in and of itself, no it's not a holy act.

 

[Black_Bird]

IMO, the reason the church made it 'bad' is because according to them, humans are not animals. We're supposed to aspire to be better than the base creatures and therefore suppress our animal drives. Sex is one big time animalistic drive!

But don't we already raise the standard by making sex more then just procreation? It is symbolic of the union between two people - mind, body, and soul.

By the same token, it used to be holy because we used to recognize that we're no better or worse than the other animals that inhabit the planet. We indulged in carnal pleasures without guilt because it never occurred to us that there was anything to feel guit about.

And maybe there isn't... While it is good to conduct yourself in a socially conscious manner and show control, suppression of any natural function usually leads to disfunction.

Do I, personally, see sex as holy? I think it can be a near holy experience, but in and of itself, no it's not a holy act.

What needs to be added to make it a holy act?

 

[Calamity Jane]

ut don't we already raise the standard by making sex more then just procreation? It is symbolic of the union between two people - mind, body, and soul.

Yes, sex is more than procreation... and not only to humans. Other animals engage in sex during non heat cycles. I don't see sex as the symbolic union of two people's souls. It sounds good, and it feels good to think that because of this physical act, you're making that soul deep contact, but the sex isn't causing it, and you can have mind blowing sex without any concept of what is hidden in the other person's soul.

What needs to be added to make it a holy act?

I don't know that an addition needs to be made. Perhaps a 'subtraction'... take away the ideas that make us feel restrained and inhibited during sex and we may achieve that moment of closeness to the devine. *shrug* Or we could just enjoy the primal, animalistic nature of sex, and that would be ok too.

 

[Mae13]

Do you think of sex as being holy? Can sex be an expression of devotion to the divine?

Yes, and yes!!

Enacting the Great Rite under the light of the moon in the sacred space at Beltane last year was one of the most amazing sexual moments of my life, and it was very holy! It was an act of devotion as well as an act of becoming divine.

Now, that's not saying that *every* time it is necessarily holy...but for me personally, to allow access to that space of my body is almost like granting entrance to a holy or sacred space. I consider that spot in a woman responsible for the creation and bringing forth of new Life to be a very sacred thing!

*hugs*
Mae

 

[Dillinger]

Sex can and should be a mystical, magickal experience. Tantric sex when done properly will make all participants feel like GODS... more than feel like - it will help you understand that we are all Gods and Goddesses - that we come from the light, that we are the light eternal.

Throughout most of human history most true enlightenment was achieved through sexual means.

The Yin/Yang - the polarity of male/female... this exists in all things universal. We are aspects of the divine force, Goddess/God. Ancient pagan rites and beliefs included the ritual of sexual intercourse. Sex was and is considered sacred.

The Great Rite is associated with the hieros gamos, the Sacred Marriage or Holy Matrimony, which is union with the deity or godhead. The hieros gamos was part of pre-Christian women's mysteries in Mesopotamia and the Mediterranean, in which women sacrificed control of their feminine power to the Goddess to be renewed by her.

It is believed by neo-Pagan Witchcraft that the Great Rite releases enormous power, which may be directed for magical purposes. It is one of the "Eightfold Paths" to magical power in the Craft.

The Great Rite is performed in the magic circle at some sabbats and initiations, depending on the tradition of the coven. Ideally, it is performed by a high priest and high priestess who are sexually intimate as spouses or lovers, except in the rite of handfasting where the bride and groom, who are already intimate lovers, perform the rite. The rite is not always performed in actuality, but may be performed symbolically; the high priest plunges the athame, or ritual knife (the male symbol), into a cup or chalice (the female symbol) that is filled with wine and is held by the high priestess. Some hold that when this rite is performed symbolically it should later be performed in actuality (in private) by the high priest and high priestess.

If the rite is performed in actuality, it is done in private, as the coveners leave the room until it is completed. In some covens they merely walk to the edge of the circle and turn their backs. Some feel the Great Rite should be performed openly because of its importance.

Aleister Crowley claimed that mankind has lived through two great aeons: that of Isis, the prehistoric age of the dominance of Woman, and that of Osiris, the age of the dominance of the male principle and of the great religions. The present aeon was the commencement of that of Horus and self-will. The third age would be a New Age of Youth, based on union of female and male energies. Thus sex was central to Crowley's magical practice, both in heterosexual and homosexual forms.

'Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law, Lest Ye Harm None.

 

[Black_Bird]

Re: Re: Sex as Sacrament

Yes, and yes!!

Enacting the Great Rite under the light of the moon in the sacred space at Beltane last year was one of the most amazing sexual moments of my life, and it was very holy! It was an act of devotion as well as an act of becoming divine.

Now, that's not saying that *every* time it is necessarily holy...but for me personally, to allow access to that space of my body is almost like granting entrance to a holy or sacred space. I consider that spot in a woman responsible for the creation and bringing forth of new Life to be a very sacred thing!

*hugs*
Mae

Mae? You're Pagan? Hmm - yet another reason to like Mae.

LIKE? Who am I kidding? I think I'm in love!!!

On subject... I was thinking more along the lines of mainstream religions. I wanted to try to get those who are NOT used to the concept, thinking a little bit about it.

I must agree, though, that sexual ritual magick *is* very holy. One of my own experiences involves a couple of enochian entities. Ever been chained and whipped by an Angel?

 

[horny_giraffe]

Mysterious chemicals

There is still something frighteningly mysterious about how I feel when I have sex, and how I feel in the afterglow.

It's probably chemical, but to say that it's "just" chemical is perhaps a little too reductionist, don't you think? Just because something is one thing doesn't mean it can't be more.

It's that potential transcendence that give all of my sexual experiences a sort of mystical feel.

I'm not a religious man. I've been a atheistic humanist for a decade or so, now. But just like when you look at the stars on a clear night, sex can touch you emotionally--and if I dare say it, spiritually. Perhaps Freud or Jung would talk about connections to our subconscious or something of that nature--but what difference does that make even if it's true?

 

[Black_Bird]

<snipped essay>

'Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law, Lest Ye Harm None.

Heh. Thank you for the essay - but I think you have miss-quoted here.

Crowley: "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. The Law is Love, Love under Will."

Wicca: "An it harms none, do what ye wilt!"

 

[Black_Bird]

Re: Mysterious chemicals

There is still something frighteningly mysterious about how I feel when I have sex, and how I feel in the afterglow.

It's probably chemical, but to say that it's "just" chemical is perhaps a little too reductionist, don't you think? Just because something is one thing doesn't mean it can't be more.

It's that potential transcendence that give all of my sexual experiences a sort of mystical feel.

I'm not a religious man. I've been a atheistic humanist for a decade or so, now. But just like when you look at the stars on a clear night, sex can touch you emotionally--and if I dare say it, spiritually. Perhaps Freud or Jung would talk about connections to our subconscious or something of that nature--but what difference does that make even if it's true?

Just because you are an atheist, doesn't mean you can't have a soul!

The experiences which one might call "spiritual" are truely universal and knows no religious bounders. It really doesn't matter if the percieved origin of this experience is real or not, as the experience itself is real regardless. We all just use different terminology and explanations.

Thank you for sharing your experience.

 

[Dillinger]

Heh. Thank you for the essay - but I think you have miss-quoted here.

Crowley: "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. The Law is Love, Love under Will."

Wicca: "An it harms none, do what ye wilt!"

Actually there are quite a few different variations of similar sentiments. The one I used was just one variant. Crowley has also often used just "Do what that wilt shall be the whole of the law" - without including "The law is love, love under will." That annoys and scares a lot of people because they interpret it as total anarchy. The Wiccans us the more safe version including the words "an it harms none" and similar variants.

I personally believe that the strongest and most emotionally precise statement is the "Do what that wilt shall be the whole of the law" because it actually says all that needs to be said - the rest is unnecessary but I tend not to post it so simply because most people take it in the wrong way.

The thing is - "Do what that wilt shall be the whole of the law" is truly all that needs to be said because the rest goes without saying - it is unnecessary once you realize that if you really know yourself - then doing one's true will cannot allow you to harm another.

Most people however need the reassurance of "an it harms none" - because they have yet to understand their true will.

 

[Black_Bird]

Most people however need the reassurance of "an it harms none" - because they have yet to understand their true will.

*Shrugs* Never heard of that. Then again - I'm pretty isolated. Self-made and all that.

 

[phrodeau]

Re: Re: Re: Sex as Sacrament

Mae? You're Pagan? Hmm - yet another reason to like Mae.

LIKE? Who am I kidding? I think I'm in love!!!

On subject... I was thinking more along the lines of mainstream religions. I wanted to try to get those who are NOT used to the concept, thinking a little bit about it.

I must agree, though, that sexual ritual magick *is* very holy. One of my own experiences involves a couple of enochian entities. Ever been chained and whipped by an Angel?

I'm confused, Black Bird. You're implying that your beliefs are not within "mainstream religions", yet you started off with:

Modern religious dogma tends to say, "no," when it comes to these types of questions. Supression and guilt tends to condition us to believe that such a thing is not possible and yet, for thousands of years before the current religious institutions came into being, sex was sacrament. Perhaps books such as "The Song of Solomon" deserve more recognition then what they recieve.

Who are the "us" that are conditioned here? Surely not you.

Which "modern religious dogma" is saying "no"? From Jewish, Catholic and Protestant belief systems, the holiness of sex within marriage is very apparent. Many consider consummation a required religious rite. Where the suppression and guilt come in is when sex is engaged in without matrimony, or in other words when the act is sacrilegious.

For the record, I am atheist, but I find religious discourse fascinating.

 

[Black_Bird]

Who are the "us" that are conditioned here? Surely not you.

Well, I was raised Christian in a society that is predominantly Christian. Yes, I am conditioned. While I may no longer stand behind all of the beliefs held by the church, there still remains quite a number of walls I haven't broken down yet.

Which "modern religious dogma" is saying "no"? From Jewish, Catholic and Protestant belief systems, the holiness of sex within marriage is very apparent. Many consider consummation a required religious rite. Where the suppression and guilt come in is when sex is engaged in without matrimony, or in other words when the act is sacrilegious.

For the record, I am atheist, but I find religious discourse fascinating.

While in word, this might be true, in practice it is not. If it was true in practice, there would not be such contraversy over nude art in the states. It's just art, right? No suggestion of premarital sex there in... right?

And even when you *do* marry, they want to control what can do in the privacy of your own home. "Hot Dogs, in buns, no condements;" anything else would be a sin. Sex is sacrilegious if it is done for anything more then procreation.

It's a small vocal minority in these religions that feel this way, but they seem to all hold the higher offices in their respective hierarchies.

While I agree that consummation was originally a required religious rite, I think it has been dismissed as little more then a formality in recent time (in the eyes of the church - most certianly not in the eyes of the bride and groom).

But - this is just my observations. I could be wrong. *shrugs*

 

[Calamity Jane]

Heh. Thank you for the essay - but I think you have miss-quoted here.

Crowley: "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. The Law is Love, Love under Will."

Wicca: "An it harms none, do what ye wilt!"

OR...

Wicca(e): an it harm none, do what ye will

The Witch's Creed: And Do What You Will be the challenge,
So be it in love that harms none, For this is the only commandment. By magick of old be it done! my personal favorite

Hippocrates: First, do no harm.

Confusciusism: Do unto another what you would have him do unto you, and do not do unto another what you would not have him do unto you. Thou needest this law alone. It is the foundation of all the rest.

The point? How can you misquote something that is so universal to ANY religious path? I didn't include the Biblican, the Hebraic, Socrates' version, or the Bhuddist version, to name a few.

I answered your original post as I think about sex. Regular, everyday sex. Ritual sex is entirely different, and as such is an expression of the divine in all of us. To me, it's like the difference between a Christian drinking a glass of wine, and taking communion. Same act, completely different motivations and implications.

Just wanted to clear that up.

 

[Black_Bird]

The point? How can you misquote something that is so universal to ANY religious path? I didn't include the Biblican, the Hebraic, Socrates' version, or the Bhuddist version, to name a few.

Point taken. He *seemed* to be quoting Crowley, as just before that line he was discussing Crowley's views on sex magick. I made an assumption, and I was wrong.

I answered your original post as I think about sex. Regular, everyday sex. Ritual sex is entirely different, and as such is an expression of the divine in all of us. To me, it's like the difference between a Christian drinking a glass of wine, and taking communion. Same act, completely different motivations and implications.

Just wanted to clear that up.

Okay. That's cool.

 

[Barb Dwyer]

"Jesus! That thing is huge!"

"Oh, God, I'm coming"

Yep, it's a religious experience alright.

 

[Black_Bird]

"Jesus! That thing is huge!"

"Oh, God, I'm coming"

Yep, it's a religious experience alright.

 

[cellis]

I have thought much about this for a long time... especially when examining previous relationships and their demise... you know what was wrong, where did I go wrong, or the other person... but for me I have long thought that sex should be a spiritual, not religious, experience... and there are those who might confuse or interchange the two... but I prefer to think that the combining of souls at the peak of the sexual experience is a spiritual experience...

I want to look into his face and see myself reflected in his eyes when he comes and hope he sees the same thing in mine... I want him to know that all I am at that moment is his... that he touches my soul, crawls into my core of being at that moment of release... that that moment makes us some more than each alone... that he touches the goddess in me, becomes a part of me...

Doesn't happen often, but the fact that it does happen makes it a spiritual experience for me...

 

[Saturn Return]

Crowley was famous for paraphrasing himself…time and again.

"The Law is for all."

"We are all free, all independent, all shining gloriously, each one a radiant world. Is not that good tidings?"

"Unless you know what your True Will is, you may be devoting the most laudable energies to destroying yourself."

"That which is true and wise - no matter who has said it - it belongs to us."

Crowley spent an entire holiday scaffolded to the cliffs south of Kingston, New York, painting the words:

"EVERY MAN AND WOMAN IS A STAR. DO WHAT THOU WILT IS THE WHOLE OF THE LAW" in enormous scarlet letters.

He said later that he did not go hungry, but was made a gift of eggs, milk, and corn by neighboring farmers. Completely restored, he'd rarely looked healthier or more radiant than when he returned back to the city.

**********

Hence, when you discover your True Will, and hold fast to it, you have the Inertia of the Universe on your side, and your life will be filled with joy and love. Hence, the Law of Thelema has been described as Love, love under will.

 

[stargazer]

I think as a created being with a soul, each of us (created beings) searches for connection for that soul within us. I think that in a sexual interaction we can find that divine soul-space filled to overflowing. I think that sex was created to be enjoyed. Why would we have it otherwise? Procreation is great (at least the practicing part ); but, to me, sex wasn't created just for that purpose. It was created to be enjoyed by each participant. You can't tell me that all those "nerve endings" just happened to end up there! To me, sex was divinely created, to be an holy expression of gratitude. Am I making any sense?

 

[Black_Bird]

Hence, when you discover your True Will, and hold fast to it, you have the Inertia of the Universe on your side, and your life will be filled with joy and love. Hence, the Law of Thelema has been described as Love, love under will.

Damn - I'm attracting Thelemites! Do I look like a a five by ten plank of pine? Oh - that's termites; Never mind.

93!

 

[Black_Bird]

I think as a created being with a soul, each of us (created beings) searches for connection for that soul within us. I think that in a sexual interaction we can find that divine soul-space filled to overflowing. I think that sex was created to be enjoyed. Why would we have it otherwise? Procreation is great (at least the practicing part ); but, to me, sex wasn't created just for that purpose. It was created to be enjoyed by each participant. You can't tell me that all those "nerve endings" just happened to end up there! To me, sex was divinely created, to be an holy expression of gratitude. Am I making any sense?

Um... in a backwards sort of way, yes. Your logic is that there must be some other purpose behind sex, as it has some unusual side affects that have nothing to do with procreation. Correct?

Although it's flawed logic, it's an interesting way of looking at things all the same.

What I think is important to look at is the potential for any action to be holy. All acts have the potential - but only those with the strongest emotial ties tend to be used. *shrugs* Don't ask me why... but it definitely points towards spirituality being less of a left brain manifestation and more like a right brain manifestation.

 

[stargazer]

Dear Black Bird: I wouldn't necessarily call MY logic flawed; but, I do understand what you are saying.

To each his own, eh?

 

[cellis]

I see sex as an affirmation of life... a sacrament... and given the right circumstances the spiritual entwining or connecting of souls...