Self injurers.

[Pure]

note to mismused

mismHabit implies "what we know." What we know is what we see, and act on, as "our self." Regardless of how bad, or harmful to oneself (and not just by testimony here), or how bad it may be for children, habit is, in and of itself, comfort to the person. As a couple of writers have said, we first wish to maintain our person, then we wish, if and when possible, to enhance our person. The maintenance is the habit, and when possible, we enhance ourself by virtue of enhancing whatever habit(s) we have, though often in peculiar ways.

As you said in that second paragraph I quoted from you, this is all indeed very difficult. What is being attempted by one is the annihilation of the self as one knows their self, in whole or in great part, and that is never comforting, and definitely not what is considered maintenance by any, save if they are sufficiently educated, or otherwise highly motivated.

A habit may be known by the person to be leading to their death, or great injury, yet it is comforting, perverse though it sounds, to that person. (Again, not just from what is seen in this thread.)

Pure: This seems true enough, but rather slanted, as if 'habit' were generally bad. I would stress that a 'habit' is, in its bare concept, neutral; some lead toward life, some toward death. Even in the latter case, it may not be bad, for instance the 'habits' of a sumarai warrior.

As you suggest, the self may be construed as a set of habits, or patterns of actions and reactions.

Even the term 'addiction' has been given different spin, these days, as in the phrase 'positive addiction', e.g., to running every day.

All in all, the acquisition of a new habit and the weakening of an old one is not all that rare. Much depends on the feedback from others; if you persuade a person, for instance, to start greeting her workmates when first she sees them each day, she may see positive results very quickly. Cognitive Behavioral Therapy, for some issues--fear[avoidance] of flying--, gets results in weeks, rather than years.

I believe Nirvana mentioned it, but only in passing, but one problem with a 'self injury' habit is its being part of a larger problem, for example depression. In such case, it's not hard to see one source of the peculiar power of the habit: *it is a vivid experience*; thoughts may be speeded up, and the heart is pounding. This is situated in a context where life, overall has a drab feeling and one's general experience has been called 'ahedonia,' lack of pleasure in the basic doings and events of life.

So it can be seen that any cure, besides coming from some 'choice', so to say, of a better way, has to come from patterns involving new and other sources of stimulation. Though many are not so vivid (as injury to the flesh), some are gentler and longer lasting, like having a story one writes, win a prize. (Finding these 'other sources' and establishing a new pattern is part of the 'cure' for depression, which, we've postulated, may underlie some cases of self injury.)

When these are in place, sometimes a bad habit like self injury, just 'falls away' without a direct conflict. To take a simpler example, consider how often the 'nail biting' of one stage of childhood, just falls away at a later stage where there are positive rewards of a different sort--perhaps even rewards from having long, beautiful nails.

 

[Roxanne Appleby]

Pure: This seems true enough, but rather slanted, as if 'habit' were generally bad. I would stress that a 'habit' is, in its bare concept, neutral; some lead toward life, some toward death. Even in the latter case, it may not be bad, for instance the 'habits' of a sumarai warrior.

If you believe as I do that life has a purpose, and that your purpose in life is your own happiness, then habit is not neutral.


Just sayin'. I won't argue it here - thus the "if."

 

[mismused]

delete

 

[mismused]

delete

 

[mismused]

delete

 

[CharleyH]

Habits, and all things not our choice, are neither good nor bad. Even death, or sickness is neither in and of itself. What we make of it is what makes it good or bad, what others make of it is what makes it good or bad to the others.

Habits, like stereotypes, are a necessary shortcut apparently developed by evolution to speed things up for us. We would get nothing done if we didn't develop habits of doing them instead of thinking it all through each time. Stereotypes are similar.

Agree sort of ... habits are a part of us, though. Habit being idiosyncracy ... our unique 'habits' if you will, define us and yes, what we make of it makes it good or bad in the eyes of us (as we define good and bad) or others as they do define.

Yet? How can you be sure we would not get more things done if we did not have habits? I think we would be more accomplished as beings if we did not have 'bad' habits ... like lingering on and bathing in our pain (no offence to anyone here, as we are all pained by something). I think it would do us better if we got into the "habit" of enjoyment in the now, but - ya know - not everyone agrees, so I won't go on.

I recall I used to think a person could not be creative if they didn't have a dark and gloomy side ...yikes - was I wrong!

Cheers all and Merry Holidays.

 

[inlovewithyourghost]

I see this from 2 different perspectives.

Coming from a Medical stand-point, I’d like to first and foremost acknowledge the fact that cutting (and for that matter other forms of self-injury – burning, bulimia, etc…) is a very real addiction that - for all intensive purposes - fall into the same category as drug abuse. Sparing everyone the lecture on the actual chemical breakdown on a cellular level, I’ll just get to the point and say that cutting doesn’t just “ease” the pain on a psychological level. THERE IS A NATURAL PHYSICAL RESPONSE TO IT WHICH IN ALL REALITY MAKES IT FEEL GOOD. IT IS NOT JUST IN THEIR HEADS.

I bring this up because so many people think that it is strictly a psychological issue. And while it definitely Starts there, people need to understand that a PHYSICAL DEPENDANCY develops in individuals who continue to abuse themselves.

I DON’T say this to justify it. I say this to help clarify it. You can’t stop smoking or drinking and expect not to get cravings. You can’t go on a diet expecting to lose weight without getting hungry. You can’t stop masturbating without expecting to get horny. Our bodies know what they want. Food. Sex. Endorphins. We all have carnal hungers that are hard to say “no” to.

Now… From personal experience I can understand WHY it starts. I’ve never cut, but I’ve been involved with behavior just as destructive. Some of it wasn’t my choice. Some of it was.

For 8 years (ages 8-16), I was a punching bag. When I was on the younger side, I would get scared, and I reacted pretty much exactly how you would expect any child that was being beaten to react. However, everything changed when I was tied up and forced to witness the rape of someone I loved.

At that point, I stopped crying.

I would almost go out of my way to piss him off. And no matter how bad it hurt, (if I was “lucky enough to feel it” that day)... I'd just grit my teeth, stand up, and look him in the eye... daring him to do it again. I refused to let him see my pain. From that day forward, I would get up after every blow and wait for the next one, until he got tired or bored and walked away. It was 2 and a half years before I had finally had enough, and fought back. And when I did, it wasn’t just about him. It wasn’t just about what he did to me. I was fighting myself just as much as I was fighting him.

During those 2 and a half years, I felt nothing. I felt everything. I was numb. I was drowning in pain. All at the same time. It seemed like the only way I knew how to control it was to absorb the pain on my terms.

But I’m one of the lucky ones. And I admit it. My “instrument of choice” was another human being. Not just some everyday-random-household object which would tempt me at all hours of the day. And I had an ideal opportunity to not only break the cycle, but eliminate the option of being in that position ever again.

It’s different. I know. It isn’t the same. It hurts. But… I want to promise you that the pain can stop. But you have to do something about it. Things have to change. You have to make choices. Vana made some good points. It’s easy to say that she doesn’t understand, and that she doesn’t really know… But I doubt anyone here will doubt the fact that she has a pretty firm grasp on what it takes to actually heal. Maybe not from the same injuries, the same experiences, or the same darkness. But Healing is Healing. And sometimes it takes someone on the outside to get you there.

Just one last thought before I leave… What would you give… What would you sacrifice to be able to stop? A million dollars? An arm? All your worldly posessions? Your eyesight? It’s funny because we’re so willing to give up the “big stuff”. See… the reality is... the only thing you have to give up is the pain. Can you do that? Are you willing to give that up?

 

[rgraham666]

Sometime it comes down to a choice of pain.

In my case it was easier for a long time to live with the pain of being mentally ill, desperately poor and alone than the pain of interacting with the world.

I'm learning better. But there's still many times when it seems that one of my beliefs about the world, that effort and reward are completely disconnected from each other, still holds true.

 

[CharleyH]

Sometime it comes down to a choice of pain.

In my case it was easier for a long time to live with the pain of being mentally ill, desperately poor and alone than the pain of interacting with the world.

I'm learning better. But there's still many times when it seems that one of my beliefs about the world, that effort and reward are completely disconnected from each other, still holds true.

Mo offence love, but its not a choice.

 

[CharleyH]

double post

 

[CharleyH]

I see this from 2 different perspectives.

Coming from a Medical stand-point, I’d like to first and foremost acknowledge the fact that cutting (and for that matter other forms of self-injury – burning, bulimia, etc…) is a very real addiction that - for all intensive purposes - fall into the same category as drug abuse. Sparing everyone the lecture on the actual chemical breakdown on a cellular level, I’ll just get to the point and say that cutting doesn’t just “ease” the pain on a psychological level. THERE IS A NATURAL PHYSICAL RESPONSE TO IT WHICH IN ALL REALITY MAKES IT FEEL GOOD. IT IS NOT JUST IN THEIR HEADS.

I bring this up because so many people think that it is strictly a psychological is
sue. And while it definitely Starts there, people need to understand that a PHYSICAL DEPENDANCY develops in individuals who continue to abuse themselves.

I disagree in a way. Those I have known have done it and - it IS NOT AN ADDICTION unless one makes it a focus of something else. One does it because they feel dead, not because they were abused or anything else. It may be an after affect, but abuse is not a cause of cutting. The need to feel alive is.

One needs to understand they are alive and they cut to prove it and I have SEEN people change and stop cutting. It is NOT the same as mastubating endlessly, or being anoexic or addicted. I am sorry, but it is not.

You make some good points, though.

 

[inlovewithyourghost]

I disagree in a way. Those I have known have done it and not done it - it IS NOT AN ADDICTION unless one makes it a focus. One does it because they feel dead, not because they were abused or anything else. It may be an after affect, but abuse is not a cause of cutting.

One needs to understand they are alive and they cut to prove it and I have SEEN people change and stop cutting. It is NOT the same as mastubating endlessly, or being anoexic or addicted. I am sorry, but it is not. :

• Ok. That was a poor way to phrase things. But, from a strictly medical perspective, the body's physical response DOES put it on the same level. Forget the emotions, the thought process and everything else that goes along with it. When a person cuts, they are physically gratified... As far as the body is concerned, they've practically just had an orgasm. One doesn't have to be "addicted" to a destructive behavior in order to suffer from it.

• I have also known people that tripped acid, not on a regular basis, and give it up. They wanted to feel alive at the time. But what difference does it make if it is cutting, or tripping... 1 time is destructive behavior.

• I never said that abuse was a cause of cutting. I merely related a personal experience. And if you had been paying attention to it, then you would realize that the abuse wasn't the CAUSE... it WAS the destructive behavior I willingly took part in. In other words, at a certain point in my life, the beatings stopped being just beatings, and metamorphed into my own version of "cutting".

• Addiction is addiction. In this particular instance, I'm simply acknowledging what most of the world at large doesn't... That an addiction TO CUTTING, does have a physical aspect to it. Most of the world would have you and everyone else believing that you are just sick in the head, and that is where it stops. But the truth of the matter is, the body itself wants to be cut as much as your mind wants to cut it. It's a GOOD THING TO KNOW what is going on. I'm not saying everyone that cuts gets addicted to it... I'm just saying that IF ONE WERE TO BECOME ADDICTED to cutting, it is not entirely in thier head. I mostly brought this up for the benefit of those who DON'T or HAVEN'T cut/self-harmed in any way. They just don't understand that: 1) it does indeed feel good to the body; 2) that physical dependancy can occcur; and 3) that when it does occur, it is just as difficult (if not more) for the body to give up cutting as it is to give up smoking.

I'm not trying to put belittle cutters at all by making these comparisons... I'm not trying to downplay it as say it is the same as masturbation or smoking. But Way more people can relate to trying to quit smoking, than trying to stop cutting. I'm just trying to help people understand that aspect of it. I'm trying to open peoples' eyes to the truth of it.

I just came out as a lesbian. It's hard. I get crap from society as a whole. But at least they acknowledge me. Cutters and self-injurers don't even have that. And it pisses me off in a big way that they close their eyes to it... I just want to open them. *wipes a tear...* I just... how can we provide strength for those that need it if we refuse to see their struggle?

 

[mismused]

delete

 

[Pure]

comments on 'inlove'

InlComing from a Medical stand-point, I’d like to first and foremost acknowledge the fact that cutting (and for that matter other forms of self-injury – burning, bulimia, etc…) is a very real addiction that - for all intensive purposes - fall into the same category as drug abuse. Sparing everyone the lecture on the actual chemical breakdown on a cellular level, I’ll just get to the point and say that cutting doesn’t just “ease” the pain on a psychological level. THERE IS A NATURAL PHYSICAL RESPONSE TO IT WHICH IN ALL REALITY MAKES IT FEEL GOOD. IT IS NOT JUST IN THEIR HEADS.

I bring this up because so many people think that it is strictly a psychological issue. And while it definitely Starts there, people need to understand that a PHYSICAL DEPENDANCY develops in individuals who continue to abuse themselves.

I DON’T say this to justify it. I say this to help clarify it. You can’t stop smoking or drinking and expect not to get cravings. You can’t go on a diet expecting to lose weight without getting hungry. You can’t stop masturbating without expecting to get horny. Our bodies know what they want. Food. Sex. Endorphins. We all have carnal hungers that are hard to say “no” to.

Pure: I think this is generally accurate, but a bit too sweeping. But ordinary eating and ordinary sexual activity, do NOT qualify as addictions; else breathing is the worst of all! Our bodies DO need food and oxygen (even crave them, in a pinch), but they don't need cutting or tobacco smoke.

Inl 2) that physical dependancy can occcur; and 3) that when it does occur, it is just as difficult (if not more) for the body to give up cutting as it is to give up smoking.

Pure: I think there is much to this analogy; of course there's a physical side. One drug used for quitting smoking is also used for depression (Wellbutrin). Self harm indeed can be an 'upper', just as nicotine is. The craving is pathological.

That said, I'm not sure why the physical side is so emphasized; perhaps to make the point it's *really* hard to change, unlike the "merely mental" hangups we're prone to. But, in a word, I don't think the physical/mental distinction is an ultimate one: merely mental problems, such as schizoprhenia, may have no physical markers (we can presently detect), but be devilishly hard to 'cure' (control). OCD might seem very 'mental', yet some drugs do work for some people. Mental and physical are aspects of a unity of mind/body processes

 

[Xelebes]

The closest I came to self-mutilation or self-injuring was automasochism during periods of high stress. It never escalated beyond using belts and the sort.

Later, in high school, I became unable to handle the stress with automasochism and I felt into the occasional state of catatonia.

For the last few years the stress has been really low and have had no need to revert any of those practices.

 

[CharleyH]

Come on? And you say? I should not speak to the CD (common denominator) as you do?

You are so wrong. You may have a medical background, but you do not have an understanding as far as I can see, lesbian or not - LOL

 

[Roxanne Appleby]

I see this from 2 different perspectives.
. . . I DON’T say this to justify it. I say this to help clarify it. You can’t stop smoking or drinking and expect not to get cravings. You can’t go on a diet expecting to lose weight without getting hungry. You can’t stop masturbating without expecting to get horny. Our bodies know what they want. Food. Sex. Endorphins. We all have carnal hungers that are hard to say “no” to.

. . . But I’m one of the lucky ones. And I admit it. My “instrument of choice” was another human being. Not just some everyday-random-household object which would tempt me at all hours of the day. And I had an ideal opportunity to not only break the cycle, but eliminate the option of being in that position ever again.

Dear Inlove:

Wow, there is so much in your two posts here, I'm kinda blown away. First off, big hugs of sympathy for your horrible experience.

Just a few superficial comments, because as I say there is so much here to absorb.

Why would someone want to stop masturbating? (Wink, but really?)

Re. your "instrument of choice." Wow, it sounds like you blew the son of a bitch away! Don't say anything - I wouldn't want you to incriminate yourself if you did, and if you didn't, well, I like the "blew the SOB away" version better anyway, so don't blow away my pleasant fantasy.

Re. Tripping on acid. Actually, acid can be a pretty good drug that provides useful insights about the nature of consciousness in ways that make life better. It's different from other drugs like pot or coke or heroin, which are about escapism and sensation. Not really relevent to anything you're talking about, just sayin'.

Your av is very beautiful - so evocative, so joyful. It's inspiring. If it's not you now, I hope it's a future you.

Be well. As I say this is all kind of superficial. I wanted to say, "I see you," but your posts kind of left me speechless.

Sincerely,

Roxanne

 

[Roxanne Appleby]

That is a sweet belief. *Sigh!* That would be wonderful. However, I think that it is strictly your belief, and nothing that has been provable as universal in all of us. Would that it were.

However, it is a thought much worth pursuing:

"your purpose in life is your own happiness, then habit is not neutral."

That may well be so, though not what you say exactly, that habit is in us to be happy, but since happiness is something that is a result, and not a thing to be strived for in and of itself, it remains for us to find what will bring about that happiness. And once brought about, will is be enough, or will it tell us that that is our end, and thus end our time here? Interesting thought.

I say this with love, Mis, and I'm not saying "this means you" by any means, but it may sound a bit harsh anyway: Perhaps too much intellectualizing is contrary to wisdom.

Aside from that, in the recent "Happiness is a serious problem" thread we had a pretty good discussion about happiness, and I think a rather fruitful one, also. That is a subject which is worthy of endless attention, I believe.

 

[Roxanne Appleby]

We do get more things done with habits. Habits give us instant synchronicity in many things -- like robots, perhaps.

Also in the realm of habits is the collective of culture to which we bow without realizing it.

So why are personal habits, even destructive ones, "neutral," but your phrasing, and the context of this in response to Charlie's comment, implies that this is a "bad" one? Granted, "bowing without realizing it" is per se bad, but the "collective of culture" can also involve some very good habits indeed. Here's some examples: Peace, order, education, hard work, initiative, enterprise, creativity, cooperation, looking out for one another, looking out for the future of children, fair play, and honesty.

I apologize because I feel like I'm dragging this thread in a "political" direction. You and Pure have introduced some critical philosophical concepts and opinions, and it seems important to let others realize that some of these are not universally accepted "givens." But I don't mean to jack this thread by starting a debate. If you feel it necessary to engage me then perhaps we should start a new thread? (I'm not dying to do so, but the option is there.)

 

[Misty_Morning]

.....

 

[mismused]

delete

 

[mismused]

delete

 

[Fallenfromgrace]

*sigh*

weak as i am.

 

[arienette]

I never had this courage before. This "fuck it" attitude and I never did have the courage to actually push down and see the blood immediately start spilling in such a delicate area. I guess this means I've fallen off the wagon, huh? I've got a crazy, angry burlap-like wrist, didn't even bother to start a tic tac toe board so Abs won't be happy about that and I still seem to have this "fuck it and everything else and just let me sit here on idle" attitude.

I'm the weakest person I know.

 

[rgraham666]

I never had this courage before. This "fuck it" attitude and I never did have the courage to actually push down and see the blood immediately start spilling in such a delicate area. I guess this means I've fallen off the wagon, huh? I've got a crazy, angry burlap-like wrist, didn't even bother to start a tic tac toe board so Abs won't be happy about that and I still seem to have this "fuck it and everything else and just let me sit here on idle" attitude.

I'm the weakest person I know.

Bullshit. *HUGS*

We all run out of strength for a while. It comes back, honest.