Seeking a woman's opinion (for a subway harassment scene)

[onehitwanda]

Personally I wear my headphones a lot but don't have anything playing, and I'm autistic enough to be watching everyone around me without them knowing. If they think I'm distracted, they're less careful about being covert.

EDIT: I can't handle urban areas though, so my experience might not be relevant.

Urban vixen. I never wear headphones, because my ears are so much more attuned than my eyes are. My ears let me hear bikes, footsteps, cars, busses, crowd noise that could be a protest, shouting that could be strife, or that awful stillness with distant sirens that I've been unlucky enough to experience once and never, ever want to go through again.

My ears keep me alive. My wits keep me listening. I live in a country where neither have been needed - touch wood - but I was born in one where if I let my vigilance slip for even a moment, odds were better than even I wouldn't be going home that night.

There's a reason I love England. It has its problems, but I've never felt unsafe in the visceral manner that I sometimes did back "home".

 

[Kelliezgirl]

The OP also calls this a sexual harassment scene, so I guess I'm walking in forewarned and forearmed because of what the aim is. If the OP said "So two people meet and initially FMC is suspicious but..." its different but for this we're given the context.

Unwanted/Harassment is the difference between an effort to engage with someone not wanting to be engaged with but you don't know until they tell you that. If you're told/shown that and you press that is now harassment.

The fact so many here are so quick to be like "Hey, he could be a good guy" when the damn topic says harassment shows why so many women get hurt. To use your analogy you don't know if its a duck and it can be a high price to pay to find out. Why chance it?

Seriously, this is why the genre isn't for me, even the people talking about favor the asshole.

Enabling by telling women they're being rude is disgusting.

Maybe some people need to just admit they don't know what the hell they're talking about. If anyone says that's me, that's fine. I've seen plenty of proof of what happens when women let their guard down and don't need to be agreed with here. Just a shame people push such appalling ignorance because its never been their ass in the sling.

I think we simply disagree on where the line of "harassment" starts.
I take the General Mattis world view on public interactions with strangers.
Be Polite, Be Professional, and have a plan to kill everyone you meet.

Being polite isn't some sure path to victimhood. In fact it can be a force multiplier. Trying to defuse the situation before it can potentially escalate.
People have argued a polite rejection may encourage further interaction. That's true.
But being rude to someone who is a real creep can also result in, "Oh, you're too good to talk to me you Bitch..." and take the encounter sideways.
Being rude is no guarantee of a safe way out of a situation.
If you deliver a polite rejection and he takes it as a sign to keep talking, ok... as long as he's just talking I'm buying time until the next stop.
"Oh... sorry this is my stop, sorry, bye..."
Or until another opportunity presents itself to extract myself from the situation.

 

[TheLobster]

Exactly. We are discussing and disagreeing and offering arguments. There's no name-calling, personal attacks etc. This is how every thread in the AH should be.

Few AH threads expand in such explosive manner, though.

 

[AwkwardMD]

The OP also calls this a sexual harassment scene, so I guess I'm walking in forewarned and forearmed because of what the aim is. If the OP said "So two people meet and initially FMC is suspicious but..." its different but for this we're given the context.

Unwanted/Harassment is the difference between an effort to engage with someone not wanting to be engaged with but you don't know until they tell you that. If you're told/shown that and you press that is now harassment.

The fact so many here are so quick to be like "Hey, he could be a good guy" when the damn topic says harassment shows why so many women get hurt. To use your analogy you don't know if its a duck and it can be a high price to pay to find out. Why chance it?

Seriously, this is why the genre isn't for me, even the people talking about favor the asshole.

Enabling by telling women they're being rude is disgusting.

Maybe some people need to just admit they don't know what the hell they're talking about. If anyone says that's me, that's fine. I've seen plenty of proof of what happens when women let their guard down and don't need to be agreed with here. Just a shame people push such appalling ignorance because its never been their ass in the sling.

One of the things I've talked a lot about in our review thread is authorial intent, and writing scenes in a way that carries all of your meaning. It's always hard to judge what others are going for, and we as authors should bear responsibility for the words on the page giving readers all the context they need. In other words, if JoC put this in front of me and asked "what did you think of the harrassment scene" I'd say "what harrassment scene?"

This is not to say that, in the moment, the protagonist isn't making the right choice, and we can (and should) share opinions about how far she takes it, but I think you doing head canon on JoC's part isn't helping JoC understand what they've written (which is the point of the thread).

This is for a WIP. The events are malleable, and can be changed. Further, it's okay to write this guy much worse than he is already, and use fiction to explore her experience. There's a lot of good options here.

 

[AG31]

Who knew this thread would get so exhausting so fast!!

 

[AwkwardMD]

In other words, if you want to write harassment, write harrassment.

 

[AwkwardMD]

The flip side of all of this is the work of @PennyThompson , whose writing is very positive and optimistic and I love it. In her hands, writing this scene from the perspective of the guy and with a few different adjectives sprinkled here and there, I'm totally rooting for the him.

Take chances and be bold (in a way that's not creep, obv).

 

[onehitwanda]

The flip side of all of this is the work of @PennyThompson , whose writing is very positive and optimistic and I love it. In her hands, writing this scene from the perspective of the guy and with a few different adjectives sprinkled here and there, I'm totally rooting for the him.

Take chances and be bold (in a way that's not creep, obv).

I mean, she is the Orgasm Fairy, it makes sense she'd be an optimist, right?

 

[PennyThompson]

I'm not strongly inclined to root for a guy who doesn't recognize and accept the universal "I'm wearing headphones because I don't want to talk to you," gesture

BUT this could definitely be written as a fun and funny interaction if the guy had a non-prurient reason to want to get her attention, like her backpack is unzipped and her book fell out.

Then it's an opportunity for both players to briefly reset. The girl realizes he wasn't necessarily trying to be a creep, the boy realizes she's reading his favorite book.

"Sorry, I'm not actually a religious polygamist Liver King follower. Though I am on my period."

"That's a relief... I dated a 'Raw Foods Only,' girl once, there are only so many carrot sticks a guy can take."

Have fun with the modern challenges of approaching a stranger! It's hard out there these days!

 

[AwkwardMD]

I'm not trying to suggest JoC rewrite this to be positive. I'm saying that if a positive rewrite wouldn't be hard then it probably wasn't overtly negative to start with.

 

[TheRedChamber]

I know you wanted women's opinions, but as a guy, I don't think the church thing is a good move. An innocent Asian girl (presumed virgin) would be a typical Weebs wet dream and he's probably going to invite himself along to her church with the intention of 'converting her to the dark side' (actual quote from actual, ahem, acquaintance)

I'm also not sure about the period stuff. For one thing, are guys really that squeamish about it or is he going to be thinking 'great, she's talking about her vagina'? Secondly, do you really want him striking up another conversation with you in exactly one month's time?

 

[Erozetta]

Is this plausible?

To me? Yes. I would absolutely do this. Although I'd take it up a notch by walking after him for a few steps as he starts to walk away.

 

[SomaSlave]

I'm a guy, so I'm not going to offer a view on the realism of the scene (since I'm totally unqualified for that). I did want to say that, as I read it, I thought the dialog wouldn't be out of place in a Wes Anderson movie. From a purely stylistic view, it worked well for me.

 

[12oclocktales]

Now that the important concerns of this thread have been considered, allow me to mention a very minor misconception that occurs in the passage: subway trains don’t squeal because of the breaks but rather because of the friction of steel wheels on steel track, especially around curves. This is extremely picayune I know, but if you’re going for truth and honesty in character portrayal, might as well include the setting as well. Replace the word “brakes” with “wheels on the rail” or “track.”

By the way, I think she handled herself very well and was quite clever, a lot sharper than he was, even if a bit over the top. Worldly-wise comes to mind.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

Now that the important concerns of this thread have been considered, allow me to mention a very minor misconception that occurs in the passage: subway trains don’t squeal because of the breaks but rather because of the friction of steel wheels on steel track, especially around curves. This is extremely picayune I know, but if you’re going for truth and honesty in character portrayal, might as well include the setting as well. Replace the word “brakes” with “wheels on the rail” or “track.”

By the way, I think she handled herself very well and was quite clever, a lot sharper than he was, even if a bit over the top. Worldly-wise comes to mind.

I'd just like to say I'm disappointed that @gunhilltrain let this information slide.

 

[PennyThompson]

Now that the important concerns of this thread have been considered, allow me to mention a very minor misconception that occurs in the passage: subway trains don’t squeal because of the breaks but rather because of the friction of steel wheels on steel track, especially around curves. This is extremely picayune I know, but if you’re going for truth and honesty in character portrayal, might as well include the setting as well. Replace the word “brakes” with “wheels on the rail” or “track.”

By the way, I think she handled herself very well and was quite clever, a lot sharper than he was, even if a bit over the top. Worldly-wise comes to mind.

This guy subways

 

[Five_Inch_Heels]

On today's installment of 'How The AH Thread Turns In Three Pages Or Less ..... '

 

[LoneMilf]

I'm also not sure about the period stuff. For one thing, are guys really that squeamish about it or is he going to be thinking 'great, she's talking about her vagina'?

Definitely this. If you already think the guy is a creep, you don't want him thinking about anything related to your private parts

 

[redgarters]

Is this plausible?

Strictly from a writing perspective, if this interaction is mainly intended to read as funny and set up that tone for the character/story, then yes I think it works. Maybe tighten up the word count a bit.

But if it's about plausibility of the interaction in the real world I think some very good points have been made here to support that in maybe 95 cases out of 100 the reaction would be more terse, limiting communication and generally trying to say as little as possible to shut the percieved creep down and stop escalation.

I mean I'm a 6'4 man and I'd be one of the 95 because even I don't like randoms talking to me in a confined space.

 

[SmilingLez]

An exercise in a Fermi estimation says that the average person crosses paths with a murderer 36 times during their lifetime.

It costs nothing to be polite and walk away, calmly and confidently.

 

[LoneMilf]

An exercise in a Fermi estimation says that the average person crosses paths with a murderer 36 times during their lifetime.

It costs nothing to be polite and walk away, calmly and confidently.

If that's true, the ratio of murderer to non-murderer interactions must be infinitesimally small - definitely nothing to act on

 

[AwkwardMD]

I'd be deeply remiss if I didn't throw this out here

 

[PennyThompson]

I'd be deeply remiss if I didn't throw this out here

I can fix her

 

[Nynah]

I can fix her

PENNY NO

 

[PennyThompson]

PENNY NO

She's just hyperfixated on her favorite movie! Loving movies is a green flag! Human Centipede is actually a satire about capitalism and fascis--