Second Person

[TarnishedPenny]

This was discussed a few years ago, but I seem to have been bitten by the Second Person bug. Most commenters seem to feel that it’s almost impossible to write well and, even if it is, nobody will want to read it anyway. OK, but I still have that craving, like seeing something on a menu you just know will give you heartburn.

General question first. Is there a way to do it well?

More specific question. I find it almost impossible to avoid briefly slipping into First Person from time to time. Any thoughts on that?

Thanks.

 

[mirafrida]

"You think about it long and hard, but eventually you decide that there is no way to write second-person well..."


I assume you're talking about instances of first-person that just slip in accidentally and are hard to notice? Or are there actual technical reasons you find that first-person seems to fit in certain places?

 

[Voboy]

This was discussed a few years weeks ago...

FIFY

https://forum.literotica.com/threads/do-people-really-like-2nd-person-narration.1560688/

Last post was less than a month ago. I suspect a lot of what we discussed in there would show up in here.

 

[TarnishedPenny]

"You think about it long and hard, but eventually you decide that there is no way to write second-person well..."


I assume you're talking about instances of first-person that just slip in accidentally and are hard to notice? Or are there actual technical reasons you find that first-person seems to fit in certain places?

The narrator is watching her and occasionally says how he feels.Edit - or says how her expression changes when something happens.

 

[TarnishedPenny]

Voboy - that was the one I was thinking of originally. For some reason, it didn't come up when I did a search. Weird. Thanks.

 

[nylonpunkie]

Call me dim, but could you give me an example of writing in the second person?

The only use I can think of is those Adventure/Fantasy books you read when you're young.

 

[TarnishedPenny]

OK, I get it. Probably not a good idea. It's like AA - when you are thinking of writing SP, a dozen other writers show up and talk you out of it.

Thanks, all.

Still thinking, mind you... Darn it!

 

[mirafrida]

The narrator is watching her and occasionally says how he feels.Edit - or says how her expression changes when something happens.

Maybe the key is to develop a really firm view of who is talking and what the situation is.

If I was to write second-person, I don't believe there would be a "narrator." It would be a disembodied voice in "your" head, which did not have its own feelings and could not observe "you" from the outside. In effect it would be akin to first-person, but with the character of the "narrator" displaced into second-person for the desired effect on the reader. Of course it would entail some tradeoffs (as point-of-view always does).

But there could be a narrator. Then it's a different kind of setup - two main characters, one a "narrator" for whom things are first person, and the "you" that he/she is talking to. In that case, a mix of first and second person would probably work fine. It would just be a fiddly and take a lot of care and editing to get right.

 

[TarnishedPenny]

Call me dim, but could you give me an example of writing in the second person?

The only use I can think of is those Adventure/Fantasy books you read when you're young.

Margaret Atwood's Happy Endings uses it (briefly), but there aren't a lot of others.

 

[SimonDoom]

The narrator is watching her and occasionally says how he feels.Edit - or says how her expression changes when something happens.

But that's not second person. That's a first person narrator addressing another person and commenting on that person. "I see you look at me." That's first person. With this narrative, you cannot get into the second person's brain. Then it's not really second person. To be true person, you must excise all traces of the first person: no "me"'s or "I"'s.

If you want to see a sustained example of how second-person POV really works, order Jay McInerny's Bright Lights Big City on Amazon and read it. Or read as much as you can take. To me, it's the literary equivalent of a novelty song. Like Gangnam Style or Disco Duck. The flavor of the day. But that's how it really works. There are a few second-person POV stories at Literotica, but not many. I believe AlinaX wrote one that I thought was surprisingly effective, but I've forgotten the title, so you might ask her the name of it to see how she did it. It's rare.

 

[SimonDoom]

Call me dim, but could you give me an example of writing in the second person?

The only use I can think of is those Adventure/Fantasy books you read when you're young.

Example, Second Person:

You walk into the room. You wonder why you're there. You see Miranda, looking at you with a smug expression, and you regret that you came over in the first place.

Example, NOT Second Person:

I see you walk into the room. You look confused about why you are here. You see me, and I give you the smug expression I always give you. I sense your regret that you came over here in the first place.

The key is that the point of view-- the internal train of thought--is centered on the second person, not on the first.

 

[TheRedChamber]

Example, Second Person:

You walk into the room. You wonder why you're there. You see Miranda, looking at you with a smug expression, and you regret that you came over in the first place.

Example, NOT Second Person:

I see you walk into the room. You look confused about why you are here. You see me, and I give you the smug expression I always give you. I sense your regret that you came over here in the first place.

The key is that the point of view-- the internal train of thought--is centered on the second person, not on the first.

You're right, but I also think there's a type of second person writing that shows up occassionally in erotica where the thoughts are with the 'you' but there's still an 'I' in the story.

You walk into the room and are happy to see me sitting in the corner. You realize you've never wanted any one as much in your whole life. I smile at you and you feel your nipples harded.

Needless to say, this type of writing gets creepy very quickly.

 

[KeithD]

You're right, but I also think there's a type of second person writing that shows up occassionally in erotica where the thoughts are with the 'you' but there's still an 'I' in the story.

Right, it's called Notsecondperson.

 

[SimonDoom]

You're right, but I also think there's a type of second person writing that shows up occassionally in erotica where the thoughts are with the 'you' but there's still an 'I' in the story.

I've never seen that. It makes no sense. A story told by an I who has access to you's thoughts.

 

[KeithD]

I've never seen that. It makes no sense. A story told by an I who has access to you's thoughts.

I think that's what we see most of here. When it pops up and is discussed on the feedback board, we usually call it pseudo second person.

 

[NotWise]

This was discussed a few years ago, but I seem to have been bitten by the Second Person bug. Most commenters seem to feel that it’s almost impossible to write well and, even if it is, nobody will want to read it anyway. OK, but I still have that craving, like seeing something on a menu you just know will give you heartburn.

General question first. Is there a way to do it well?

More specific question. I find it almost impossible to avoid briefly slipping into First Person from time to time. Any thoughts on that?

Thanks.

Rather than using 2nd person for an entire story, you might use it in some aspect of the story to provide variety and offset a particular part -- say, in a dream or in a game. A lot of old text-based games were 2nd person -- "You see eyes glowing in the darkened room" sort of thing. (That would be time to run.)

I did something like that with 1st person, present tense. In "Her Dream House" the only female character relates a series of sexual fantasies in 1st person present tense while the rest of the story is 3rd person. I'd never write an entire story in 2nd, but I think it might have uses. Just remember that the 2nd-person narrator isn't a character in the story or a player in the game.

Suddenly I'm hearing it in dialog, with one person using it to drill into the head of another. I'll get over it. Not sure the readers could find that very comfortable.

 

[TheRedChamber]

I've never seen that. It makes no sense. A story told by an I who has access to you's thoughts.

It crops up in the BDSM category sometimes. I think the idea is generally that it's extra dommey to be able to tell the sub exactly what they are doing and thinking at each stage of the story and the dom still remains mysterious. I'm not saying it works, but I think that's the idea.

 

[thomas1965]

I find it almost impossible to avoid briefly slipping into First Person from time to time. Any thoughts on that?

I enjoyed reading "Apple Tee Yard" by Louise Doughty. The chapters about the MFC are written in 1. Person POV, the chapters about the MMC are written in 2. Person POV. Maybe you can try her approach.

 

[AlinaX]

You would think that writing in second person was impossible. You would think that even if it were possible, it could not be erotic. You would think, were you to read Literotica extensively that there is no true second person, there is only first person with weird telepathy and hypotheticals sprinkled in. Or maybe you would argue that the only good use for second person is in interactive fiction, where you are given the choice to go this way, or that way, or, indeed, to quit while you're ahead and go get a life.

But you would be wrong. You know that second person is possible, and you know that it can be erotic. You know this because the conversation in the forum loops around like Groundhog Day, which you must have watched a hundred times - and there's all those derivatives too, like Before I Fall, or that one episode in every long-running TV series from Dr Who to Xena: Warrior Princess.

You know, but you would rather argue that it has never been done, and therefore that it can't.

You know.

 

[TarnishedPenny]

But that's not second person. That's a first person narrator addressing another person and commenting on that person. "I see you look at me." That's first person. With this narrative, you cannot get into the second person's brain. Then it's not really second person. To be true person, you must excise all traces of the first person: no "me"'s or "I"'s.

Completely understood, Simon, but I think my question was about mixing 1st and 2nd Person. Thanks.

 

[KeithD]

You would think that writing in second person was impossible. You would think that even if it were possible, it could not be erotic. You would think, were you to read Literotica extensively that there is no true second person, there is only first person with weird telepathy and hypotheticals sprinkled in. Or maybe you would argue that the only good use for second person is in interactive fiction, where you are given the choice to go this way, or that way, or, indeed, to quit while you're ahead and go get a life.

But you would be wrong. You know that second person is possible, and you know that it can be erotic. You know this because the conversation in the forum loops around like Groundhog Day, which you must have watched a hundred times - and there's all those derivatives too, like Before I Fall, or that one episode in every long-running TV series from Dr Who to Xena: Warrior Princess.

You know, but you would rather argue that it has never been done, and therefore that it can't.

You know.

The problem with second person being erotic or not, as others have alluded to, is that, to be erotic--cause sexual arousal--it either has to use really terrific imagery (which is possible) and/or it must strike the reader directly as applicable to them (which is likely only to work with a small set of readers). You have trouble buying into seeing yourself as doing what the second person narrative is telling you you are thinking and doing if you can't identify with that character. I think it can be very effective when the imagery is melting and you've grasped a reader who fits the character profile. The kicker is in getting the second one done while being a good enough writer to invoke the first one.

 

[Voboy]

You would think that writing in second person was impossible. You would think that even if it were possible, it could not be erotic. You would think, were you to read Literotica extensively that there is no true second person, there is only first person with weird telepathy and hypotheticals sprinkled in. Or maybe you would argue that the only good use for second person is in interactive fiction, where you are given the choice to go this way, or that way, or, indeed, to quit while you're ahead and go get a life.

But you would be wrong. You know that second person is possible, and you know that it can be erotic. You know this because the conversation in the forum loops around like Groundhog Day, which you must have watched a hundred times - and there's all those derivatives too, like Before I Fall, or that one episode in every long-running TV series from Dr Who to Xena: Warrior Princess.

You know, but you would rather argue that it has never been done, and therefore that it can't.

You know.

I see what you did there.

 

[Bubo_bubo]

I think another way to use second person is not as the primary point of view, but as a sort of Dear Reader, address, which works best if the narrator is first person and some kind of identifiable character telling you a story in which they might not even be the main character.
"And you, Dear Reader, what do you think happened next? Well, I doubt you predicted this." - kind of thing.

In Erotica, it would be more or less equivalent to one of those jerk-off videos.
"Are you getting hot knowing what they were doing? I bet you are! You're getting off on this aren't you, yes you are, you pervert!"

 

[KeithD]

Second person is strict. If the narrator is first person, the work is first person, not second.

 

[SimonDoom]

Completely understood, Simon, but I think my question was about mixing 1st and 2nd Person. Thanks.

Got it, but my question is, how does that work, exactly?

Mixing 1st person and 2nd person means you have a first-person narrator who at times slips into the head of the second-person character. How do they do that?

You would think that writing in second person was impossible. You would think that even if it were possible, it could not be erotic. You would think, were you to read Literotica extensively that there is no true second person, there is only first person with weird telepathy and hypotheticals sprinkled in. Or maybe you would argue that the only good use for second person is in interactive fiction, where you are given the choice to go this way, or that way, or, indeed, to quit while you're ahead and go get a life.

But you would be wrong. You know that second person is possible, and you know that it can be erotic. You know this because the conversation in the forum loops around like Groundhog Day, which you must have watched a hundred times - and there's all those derivatives too, like Before I Fall, or that one episode in every long-running TV series from Dr Who to Xena: Warrior Princess.

You know, but you would rather argue that it has never been done, and therefore that it can't.

You know.

Nicely put!

AlinaX, what's the title of the story you wrote in 2d person? My recollection is that it was a rare example of a story that a) really WAS in 2d person, and b) worked.