Schumer and the 2 state solution ELI5

[astuffedshirt_perv]

Recently Sen Schumer made a speech that, among other things, called for a 2 state solution to the Palestine problem. Both Israel and Gaza/West Bank would be sovereign states. What does this purport to solve?

Some of us are old enough to recall world war 2, where a sovereign nation (Japan) attacked a sovereign nation (USA). This gave USA casus belli to declare war on Japan. In the war, the USA pounded the everloving shit out of Japan and remade them in our own image.

If Gaza/West Bank had been a sovereign nation, and attacked Israel ala 7 October, Israel would have casus belli to declare war on Gaza/West Bank. Seems like a sub-optimal solution for the terrorist apologists.

What is the 2 state solution expected to provide?

 

[ll74]

A guaranteed self governed territory for each party involved in the conflict.

 

[BrightShinyGirl]

Recently Sen Schumer made a speech that, among other things, called for a 2 state solution to the Palestine problem. Both Israel and Gaza/West Bank would be sovereign states. What does this purport to solve?

Some of us are old enough to recall world war 2, where a sovereign nation (Japan) attacked a sovereign nation (USA). This gave USA casus belli to declare war on Japan. In the war, the USA pounded the everloving shit out of Japan and remade them in our own image.

If Gaza/West Bank had been a sovereign nation, and attacked Israel ala 7 October, Israel would have casus belli to declare war on Gaza/West Bank. Seems like a sub-optimal solution for the terrorist apologists.

What is the 2 state solution expected to provide?

It would give the Palestinians an opportunity to thrive on their own. Whether they succeed or fail it, the Israelis would be out of it.

 

[Rightguide]

The two-state solution isn't viable when 70 percent of the Gaza population supports what Hamas is doing. At age 5 Palestinian kids in Gaza are being taught to hate and kill Jews. Jews and Palestinians in the same space are like storing the blasting caps with the dynamite.

 

[ll74]

The two-state solution isn't viable when 70 percent of the Gaza population supports what Hamas is doing.

Incorrect. A change of leadership for both parties is necessary. Prior to October 7, Palestinians supported both a two state solution and a change in leadership. Proper guidance can steer people that way once again.

Your dehumanizing of Palestinians is demonstrated once again.

 

[astuffedshirt_perv]

It would give the Palestinians an opportunity to thrive on their own. Whether they succeed or fail it, the Israelis would be out of it.

How so? As a separate state, Israel would not be required to keep borders open with G/WB. Would Egypt and Jordan suddenly throw their gates open? And, again, when terrorists from G/WB inevitably attack Israel, we are right back to where we are now.

 

[HisArpy]

It would give the Palestinians an opportunity to thrive on their own. Whether they succeed or fail it, the Israelis would be out of it.

Exactly what would it give Palestine that it didn't already have? More UN aid that Hamas could confiscate and turn into weapons? More water that Hamas could confiscate the infrastructure for and turn into weapons and secret tunnels and bunkers from which to launch attacks?

Everything Palestine needed was already being GIVEN to them. Instead of accepting it graciously they used it to make war on their neighbors.

And you want them to be able to do more of this under some FAKE guise of sovereignty? Stop being a ninny and wake the fuck up for ONCE in your dam life.

 

[ll74]

How so? As a separate state, Israel would not be required to keep borders open with G/WB. Would Egypt and Jordan suddenly throw their gates open? And, again, when terrorists from G/WB inevitably attack Israel, we are right back to where we are now.

That assumes a lot about a two state solution. And also seems to suffer from the same dehumanizing comments that Reichy deployed. Wouldnt the state be responsible for keeping attackers in check as part of the agreement?

 

[HisArpy]

That assumes a lot about a two state solution. And also seems to suffer from the same dehumanizing comments thatReichy deployed. Wouldnt the state be responsible for keeping attackers in check as part of the agreement?

Normally it would.

Unless the State is dedicated to instigating those kinds of attacks. You know, like Hamas. Which, coincidentally, is the ELECTED government of Palestine.

 

[ll74]

Normally it would.

Unless the State is dedicated to instigating those kinds of attacks. You know, like Hamas. Which, coincidentally, is the ELECTED government of Palestine.

Hamas was elected in 2006. Unless you support Obama, you'd be stupid to think the same support existed 18 years later. And before the current conflict, the majority did support a change.

Again, when you don't think a group of people are capable of the same things you are, you arent being serious and instead just want to ignore the issue and blame someone for it

 

[STrent]

Hamas would not exist in the first place if Israel hadn’t spent decades dehumanising the Palestinians, stealing their land away despite multiple peace agreements agreeing borders and killing/maiming their citizens constantly and consistently.

Hamas are a symptom of the illness: the illness is the far right, fascist, apartheid state of Israel.

Fix this, and then the two state solution can follow.

However, most Israelis and Pro Israelis are also Zionists: they want the destruction of the state of Palestine to take the whole thing as Israel.

Hamas is not the whole of Palestine, and in any event, post 2017 and with the issues of the last 7 years, Hamas’ overall influence and standing was on the way down, as was the land actually held in Gaza and the West Bank, due to the (illegal under international law) violent and government supported activities of Israel.

As in the other thread, a two state solution can only happen when the country with all the power is no longer playing the victim after decades of violence against the indigenous population of the area. It requires Israel to change radically in its policies.

 

[ll74]

Hamas would not exist in the first place if Israel hadn’t spent decades dehumanising the Palestinians, stealing their land away despite multiple peace agreements agreeing borders and killing/maiming their citizens constantly and consistently.

Hamas are a symptom of the illness: the illness is the far right, fascist, apartheid state of Israel.

Fix this, and then the two state solution can follow.

However, most Israelis and Pro Israelis are also Zionists: they want the destruction of the state of Palestine to take the whole thing as Israel.

Hamas is not the whole of Palestine, and in any event, post 2017 and with the issues of the last 7 years, Hamas’ overall influence and standing was on the way down, as was the land actually held in Gaza and the West Bank, due to the (illegal under international law) violent and government supported activities of Israel.

As in the other thread, a two state solution can only happen when the country with all the power is no longer playing the victim after decades of violence against the indigenous population of the area. It requires Israel to change radically in its policies.

Just as the others have said a two state solution is not possible because of Hamas/Palestinians... You are guilty of the same horseshit towards Israelis/Zionists.

Proper leadership would be needed to pursue a two state solution and lasting peace. That is the issue.... Not which ideology they originated from.

 

[HisArpy]

Hamas would not exist in the first place if Israel hadn’t spent decades dehumanising the Palestinians, stealing their land away despite multiple peace agreements agreeing borders and killing/maiming their citizens constantly and consistently.

Hamas are a symptom of the illness: the illness is the far right, fascist, apartheid state of Israel.

Fix this, and then the two state solution can follow.

However, most Israelis and Pro Israelis are also Zionists: they want the destruction of the state of Palestine to take the whole thing as Israel.

Hamas is not the whole of Palestine, and in any event, post 2017 and with the issues of the last 7 years, Hamas’ overall influence and standing was on the way down, as was the land actually held in Gaza and the West Bank, due to the (illegal under international law) violent and government supported activities of Israel.

As in the other thread, a two state solution can only happen when the country with all the power is no longer playing the victim after decades of violence against the indigenous population of the area. It requires Israel to change radically in its policies.

Sure bub.



Meanwhile back in reality, Israel has agreed to signed peace agreements with Palestine. Agreements which Palestine repeatedly violates.

Israel has stopped Israeli settlements in Gaza and required that settlers abandon the lands they attempted to seize.

Israel allows Gazans to become Israeli citizens if they apply.

Israel allows Gaza to trade with Egypt through the gate into Egypt.

Israel allows Gaza to self govern.

Meanwhile, Gaza signs peace agreements while simultaneously launching rockets at Israeli civilians in concert with Hezbollah in the North.

 

[astuffedshirt_perv]

Proper leadership would be needed to pursue a two state solution and lasting peace.

It's almost as if you need a partner for peace as a prerequisite for a 2 state solution.

 

[Rightguide]

Incorrect. A change of leadership for both parties is necessary. Prior to October 7, Palestinians supported both a two state solution and a change in leadership. Proper guidance can steer people that way once again.

Your dehumanizing of Palestinians is demonstrated once again.

It will fail.

 

[Rotadom]

The two-state solution isn't viable when 70 percent of the Gaza population supports what Hamas is doing. At age 5 Palestinian kids in Gaza are being taught to hate and kill Jews. Jews and Palestinians in the same space are like storing the blasting caps with the dynamite.

Cool story, bro. You don't know any of this to be true.

 

[ll74]

It will fail.

It won't. No other solution results in peace.

 

[HisArpy]

It won't. No other solution results in peace.

Not true.

Should Israel continue on in it's war against Hamas eventually they will prevail, or Hamas will, and the conflict will end after capitulation by one or the other.

Your proposed solution has been tried and the result is more bloodshed without any indication of ending. It is, therefore, no solution at all.

 

[STrent]

Just as the others have said a two state solution is not possible because of Hamas/Palestinians... You are guilty of the same horseshit towards Israelis/Zionists.

Proper leadership would be needed to pursue a two state solution and lasting peace. That is the issue.... Not which ideology they originated from.

I’m a historian, and I am telling you, you’ve got this entirely wrong.

Zionism as an ideology is exactly as damaging as Hamas’ approach, because its fundamental principle is genocide, or mass displacement, and we have clear, undeniable evidence forth this. It’s literally what

Netanyahu and his colleagues have been pushing towards for the last twenty years, and prior to that Zionism has literally resulted in the mass expulsion of Palestinians, the destruction of their properties and land.

Both ideologies need to end, and if a two state solution is to come about both parties have to negotiate, and act on, agreements for peace.

However history shows us that Israel is the bad faith actor in thi - because of Zionism.

Declaring that you can criticise one but not the other is the hypocrisy that the west is being (rightly) castigated for.

We agree on “proper leadership” but what has got us here? Zionism, starting in Britain, and spreading across the world, leading millions to believe it is acceptable to have literal classes of citizenship, that it is okay to take properties and land by force, to kill with impunity, and more.

Ignoring or denying this basic fundamental fact about the conflict makes you ignorant, or complicit.

 

[STrent]

Not true.

Should Israel continue on in it's war against Hamas eventually they will prevail, or Hamas will, and the conflict will end after capitulation by one or the other.

Your proposed solution has been tried and the result is more bloodshed without any indication of ending. It is, therefore, no solution at all.

Not true. All history shows that even capitulation by one side does not end in the long term struggle, and can and does normally lead to worse violence later on.

Besides which, in this war, Israel has created tens of thousands of martyrs and affected millions of people. Do you think they are going to stand still after everything that has happened?

Would you? If you family had been blown up, or starved to death, or maimed, or run over with a bulldozer, or shot by a sniper, or…

It’s really simple and has been obvious for decades. Israel needs to stop being a bad faith actor in the Middle East.

America needs to stop providing them with weaponry and impunity. It is time for an overhaul of the United Nations to ensure this can never happen again.

Otherwise, mark my words - this only gets worse, for everyone.

 

[ll74]

I’m a historian, and I am telling you, you’ve got this entirely wrong.

I don't give a shit what you call yourself.

Zionism as an ideology is exactly as damaging as Hamas’ approach, because its fundamental principle is genocide, or mass displacement, and we have clear, undeniable evidence forth this. It’s literally what

Netanyahu and his colleagues have been pushing towards for the last twenty years, and prior to that Zionism has literally resulted in the mass expulsion of Palestinians, the destruction of their properties and land.

Both ideologies need to end, and if a two state solution is to come about both parties have to negotiate, and act on, agreements for peace.

However history shows us that Israel is the bad faith actor in thi - because of Zionism.

Declaring that you can criticise one but not the other is the hypocrisy that the west is being (rightly) castigated for.

We agree on “proper leadership” but what has got us here? Zionism, starting in Britain, and spreading across the world, leading millions to believe it is acceptable to have literal classes of citizenship, that it is okay to take properties and land by force, to kill with impunity, and more.

Ignoring or denying this basic fundamental fact about the conflict makes you ignorant, or complicit.

Dehumanizing anyone is not acceptable. Everyone must unite to achieve peace and we need leadership from all involved to guide the political landscape.

As for your "historical" horseshit... You and Becky would get along, but the view of history has been argued time and time again in this forum. You're not the first. You're not the last.

History is what got us here. Blame doesn't get us out of here.

 

[HisArpy]

Not true. All history shows that even capitulation by one side does not end in the long term struggle, and can and does normally lead to worse violence later on.

Besides which, in this war, Israel has created tens of thousands of martyrs and affected millions of people. Do you think they are going to stand still after everything that has happened?

Would you? If you family had been blown up, or starved to death, or maimed, or run over with a bulldozer, or shot by a sniper, or…

It’s really simple and has been obvious for decades. Israel needs to stop being a bad faith actor in the Middle East.

America needs to stop providing them with weaponry and impunity. It is time for an overhaul of the United Nations to ensure this can never happen again.

Otherwise, mark my words - this only gets worse, for everyone.

Bullshit.

See eg; Japan after WWII. Germany after WWII. Egypt after Cleopatra. England after Rome. China after Qin Shi Huangdi.

A conquered land usually remains conquered IF the conquerer continues to occupy that land. It is ONLY when the land remains unconquered or is returned to the conquered that strife and unrest continues. See for ex; Afghanistan, Israel/Gaza, Iraq, Iran, Cambodia, Russia, North Korea.

 

[STrent]

I don't give a shit what you call yourself.


Dehumanizing anyone is not acceptable. Everyone must unite to achieve peace and we need leadership from all involved to guide the political landscape.

As for your "historical" horseshit... You and Becky would get along, but the view of history has been argued time and time again in this forum. You're not the first. You're not the last.

History is what got us here. Blame doesn't get us out of here.

One side has dropped more bombs on an area of land 25 miles long and 5 miles wide than was dropped on the whole of Germany in 1942 and 1943 combined, in a six month period.

Is that down to the leadership? If so, what is their ideology?

Not rocket science. You’re being an apologist for genocide.

Your constant denial of the basic facts make you at fault, not me.

My conscience is clear. I suspect yours won’t be in years to come.

 

[STrent]

Bullshit.

See eg; Japan after WWII. Germany after WWII. Egypt after Cleopatra. England after Rome. China after Qin Shi Huangdi.

A conquered land usually remains conquered IF the conquerer continues to occupy that land. It is ONLY when the land remains unconquered or is returned to the conquered that strife and unrest continues. See for ex; Afghanistan, Israel/Gaza, Iraq, Iran, Cambodia, Russia, North Korea.

I am not engaging with this post as the England/Rome example alone is absolutely insane.

 

[ll74]

One side has dropped more bombs on an area of land 25 miles long and 5 miles wide than was dropped on the whole of Germany in 1942 and 1943 combined, in a six month period.

I've not disputed this

Is that down to the leadership? If so, what is their ideology?

Not rocket science. You’re being an apologist for genocide.

I am not.

Your constant denial of the basic facts make you at fault, not me.

Yes, your narrative seems to be blame.

My conscience is clear. I suspect yours won’t be in years to come.

I want peace. You want blame.

I'm not here to discuss anyone's conscience. I focus on motivations of peace. Blame doesn't actually work towards that. Leadership of adversaries, that work towards a common goal, does. Blame just creates vengeance and distrust.